KGMB Hawaii blows the lid on Mesa / go! and pilot fatigue!

[Soverytired]

sorry but getting alpa to do it is a pipe dream.

the rules will only change after the public/faa has had enough accidents. the only thing we can do is draw attention to the problem when we can and hope less it lessens the number of accidents required to make a rule change.

I'm not optimistic that ALPA will be able to change anything about anything. I'm just resigned to the reality that they're the only game in town when it comes to lobbying Congress for rule changes.

The only other way rules will change is if there are several more accidents and casualties that are 100% attributable to fatigue. Difficult to prove, because unless the pilots are asleep when the actual crash takes place, fatigue is just listed as one of many other factors.

 

[Freight Dog]

Most safety-related FAR's are written in blood.

When fatigue becomes either the probable cause or a major contributing factor to a crash at a Part 121 airline, then you'll see a change. Until then.... I feel sorry for guys working at Mesa. Alls I can say is that it gets way better.

 

[OB-CPO]

Throw JO down the well
So my country can be free
You must grab him by his horns
Then we have a big party

If you see JO coming
You must be carefull of his teeth
You must grab him by his money
And I tell you what to do

Throw JO down the well
So my country can be free
You must grab him by his horns
Then we have a big party

Also...


Wouldya?

Stacy is HOT. Even more hot now that she rode JO with her strap on!

How I would pay to see a photochop of Stacy Loe riding JO in this picture of JO bending over.

Anybody got photochop?

 

[Max Q]

Couldn't think of a good caption...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/mo439470/joandstacy.jpg

-Brett

 

[xjgearbtch]

is his daughter 18 yet? I heard she was a hottie

 

[waveflyer]

I disagree to a point w/ the pessimistic view on the public... They don't want to fly w/ tired pilots- and there is convincing research it seems like every month that is relating a lack of sleep, and sleep schedule consistency to the negative effects of alcohol. A mistake i think ALPA and all our unions make is that they do not galvanize the public very well at all.

How would you change the rest rules?

To me they are designed to protect int'l pilots and are purely political... Otherwise why would we limit flight time instead of duty time? Why is it ok for turboprops to fly 34/120/1200 when it's much harder to build time in them? Same for 135 unsched of 500/800/1400. It's not about the pilot and what's safe-

To me = i know this would have Int'l ops issues- but the duty limit should be 12 hours and fly as much as you can- like the JB experiment- but keep the week/month/year limits. That would lead to more days off.. which ... another i'm fond of saying- If i get enough time at home- i can fly every day of the month and not get tired... It's about a sustainable schedule where pilots aren't getting wrecked at least 2 days a week and have to spend many of their off days just recovering.

 

[freeflyer14]

Most safety-related FAR's are written in blood.

When fatigue becomes either the probable cause or a major contributing factor to a crash at a Part 121 airline, then you'll see a change. Until then.... I feel sorry for guys working at Mesa. Alls I can say is that it gets way better.

I wholeheartedly agree about the FAR's being written in blood, but I just cannot ever see fatigue being listed as the probable cause of a crash. It will just be called pilot error, and maybe have fatigue as a possible factor. Unless some guys are going on and on about how tired and fatigued they are on the the cvr, yawning, making constant errors, etc, and then put it in the dirt, maybe... But then the pilots will be crucified for not calling off fatigued, since all airline CEO's are quick to remind the public that "our pilots can call off fatigued at anytime without reprimand."

 

[Soverytired]

How would you change the rest rules?

ALPA's official position is:

12 hr max duty day
8 hr max scheduled flying
10 hr min "free from duty" between shifts.

I used to think this was ALPA trying to "featherbed" and artificially inflate due-paying members; bitter experience at Mesa taught me that this sort of inflexibility is necessary, because there will always be a few carriers who push pilot schedules beyond the limits of common sense (but totally legal, of course).

===================================

ALPA will have to lobby for change. There are powerful forces lobbying for exactly the opposite, and have prevented any significant change in duty times despite DECADES of NTSB and NASA commissioned studies.

The unfiltered results from the most extensive study ever taken on pilot fatigue in the US by NASA was heavily censored by airline industry interests not less than a year ago.

(ALPA and FOIA is fighting to make the results on this study public)

The sad truth is, Mesa-type airlines would rather just absorb the insurance premiums they pay to cover the occasional fatigue-related crash than to pay to have enough pilots to both meet their scheduling demands and to conform to pilots physiologically driven circadian rhythm requirements.

Sad but true.

 

[Flyer1015]

As usual, it will take blood to get any rules to change. That's what happens when the system is reactive, not proactive.

 

[waveflyer]

To me that's the point of a national union- Bottom line, it's not safe and it's certainly not sustainable over the long term health wise- It's bad to crash- but it's also bad to lose your medical.
We should stand united on that and refuse to fly these schedules as a group. Regulatory changes are a much better protection than any contract... Seems better rest rules- or provisions designed to give companies a financial motive for more efficient schedules in any contract always go away on the downturn--- this is too important...

But again, it begs the question- why do we have a national union if we cannot strike together over issues that affect everyone.

 

[av8er2]

There is a real problem out there with fatigue.

 

[Guitar Guy]

The NTSB has already cited fatigue as a probable cause in several accidents. Here's a transcript of James Hall's speech in Little Rock, AR on January 26, 2000. Note that he cites fatigue not just in relation to AA 1420 but to other accidents as well: http://www.ntsb.gov/Speeches/former/hall/jhc000126.htm

As long as the Airline Transport Association (ATA) remains strong, the rest rules will likely not be reviewed or revised.

 

[flytheblue]

Did they fall asleep or get lost??

NTSB Identification: SEA08IA080
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of Mesa Airlines (D.B.A. GO)
Incident occurred Wednesday, February 13, 2008 in Hilo, HI
Aircraft: Bombardier, Inc. CL-600-2B19, registration: N651BR
Injuries: 43 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On February 13, 2008, about 1000 Hawaiian standard time, a Bombardier, Inc., CL-600-2B19, N651BR, operated by Mesa Airlines, dba GO!, Phoenix, Arizona, overflew its destination airport, General Lyman Field (HTO), Hilo, Hawaii, while in cruise flight. The airplane subsequently reversed course, descended, and landed uneventfully at HTO. The incident occurred during a regularly scheduled, domestic, passenger flight, which was conducted in accordance with 14 CFR Part 121, and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed and activated. The airplane was not damaged, and there were no injuries to the 40 passengers or 3 crewmembers. The flight originated from the Honolulu International Airport, Honolulu, Hawaii, about 0916.

According to air traffic control personnel, the airplane was in cruise flight at 21,000 feet when the controller made several unsuccessful attempts to contact the flight crew. About 1000, the controller was able to established radio contact with the flight crew, but only after the airplane had overflown HTO by about 15 miles. The controller then issued the flight crew a course change back to HTO, where it landed about 15 minutes later.

Company maintenance personnel subsequently performed a functionality check on the airplane's pressurization system. The check proved negative for any system anomalies. Additionally, the airplane was checked for carbon monoxide exposure with negative results.

 

[RJP]

:erm: Wait......Hilo is HTO? Not ITO? Who is General Lyman? Where the hell have I been going all these years?

 

[Guitar Guy]

:erm: Wait......Hilo is HTO? Not ITO? Who is General Lyman? Where the hell have I been going all these years?

HTO/KHTO is East Hapmton, NY.

ITO/PHTO is Hilo, HI.

Looks like the NTSB needs to edit their report.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

There is a real problem out there with fatigue.

I agree. In fact I wanted to read all these threads, but I'm just too tired!

 

[TurboAWD]

The duty/rest rules in the US are a joke. Hopefully ALPA and the NTSB will get them improved eventually.

Until then, what that means is you have to stand up for yourself and tell the company NO when you are not fit to fly.

Turbo

 

[Fred Rogers]

I know at my company they are much happier backing down on schedule extensions etc. when you drop the ol' F-Bomb. They do not want Fatigue reports being scattered around drawing attention to the horrible schedules.

I pray that this issue explodes to a frenzy and public outcry for tougher rules. They will not understand the effect on ticket prices until it's too late.

I hope news outlets continue to interview anonymous pilots regarding this issue. BTW, I also think that the fact that we are so scared to own our statements on a major safety issue reflects a whole other dimension of problems. This is why govt. employees have whistleblower protection, and a merit based upgrade system is a TERRIBLE threat.

sorry if I'm rambling. I'M TIRED!

 

[OB-CPO]

I know at my company they are much happier backing down on schedule extensions etc. when you drop the ol' F-Bomb. They do not want Fatigue reports being scattered around drawing attention to the horrible schedules.

I pray that this issue explodes to a frenzy and public outcry for tougher rules. They will not understand the effect on ticket prices until it's too late.

I hope news outlets continue to interview anonymous pilots regarding this issue. BTW, I also think that the fact that we are so scared to own our statements on a major safety issue reflects a whole other dimension of problems. This is why govt. employees have whistleblower protection, and a merit based upgrade system is a TERRIBLE threat.

sorry if I'm rambling. I'M TIRED!

I remember a couple daya ago the www.dontflygo.com had a link to the FAA Whistleblower program.

yep, here it is. Whistleblower Protection Program

 

[acaTerry]

You may think this incident will focus national attention on the fatigue issue, but you'd be wrong. The American people just want cheap transportation. Revising the rest rules would just require airlines to hire more crews, and would raise fares.

All that will happen is this crew will be publicly castigated as bad guys, will be disposed of, and the public will think the bad apples have been weeded out. Then they will stick their heads back in the sand and pretend the fatigue issue doesn't exist, while they sit back and enjoy their $199 transcon flight and bitch there's no free meal service.

Hey JP,
Long time no argue! Anyways, I can agree mostly here that nobody cares. But once enough crashes occur, AND FI ROOKIES KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT JUDGEMENTS, they will show a little concern. In the meantime, 300-hr wonder kids will continue peeing in their pants for that jet flying....filling the gaps caused by those who came to know better.