Jetblue's Problem

[GogglesPisano]

When the tickets prices at Airline X are more than at Airline Y, because X pays its employees more,

Show me one example where that is the case. Just one.

 

[aircombat]

Show me one example where that is the case. Just one.

ALPA and it's supporters don't like to muddy their rants with facts.

 

[GogglesPisano]

ALPA and it's supporters don't like to muddy their rants with facts.

I think you misunderstand the argument here. Yip is far from an ALPA supporter.

 

[BeachBummer]

ALPA and it's supporters don't like to muddy their rants with facts.

way to read the whole thread before chiming in.

Here's a fact:

SWA keeps costs low by paying their pilots the lowest wages in the industry. This also allows them to sell cheap tickets. SWAPA supports this because it allows a strong company presents, fast upgrades and organic growth.



wait for it...

 

[Lake Alice]

Funny since Alaska pays pilots well. Delta pays pilots well. Oddly these carriers are both profitable. Yet somehow the public who seems to negotiate directly with the employees are doing something wrong. Whats the rationale yip?

 

[pilotyip]

Show me one example where that is the case. Just one.

2001 ORD - PHX UAL $387; SWA $99 Low cost carriers put pressure on the bottom line at the high paying airlines and they had to adjust their compensation at all levels. Do we need more examples?

I think you misunderstand the argument here. Yip is far from an ALPA supporter.

Was an ALPA supporter, paid dues until, I lost my job and the airline went out of business.

Funny since Alaska pays pilots well. Delta pays pilots well. Oddly these carriers are both profitable. Yet somehow the public who seems to negotiate directly with the employees are doing something wrong. Whats the rationale yip?

You don't own any hubs like they do, they can get away with charging more, because they dominate markets. i.e. DTW-RDU Delta $190 FNT-RDU AirTran $109.

 

[Lake Alice]

2001 ORD - PHX UAL $387; SWA $99 Low cost carriers put pressure on the bottom line at the high paying airlines and they had to adjust their compensation at all levels. Do we need more examples?


Was an ALPA supporter, paid dues until, I lost my job and the airline went out of business.


You don't own any hubs like they do, they can get away with charging more, because they dominate markets. i.e. DTW-RDU Delta $190 FNT-RDU AirTran $109.

Which you blame ALPA for, incorrectly I might add.

Almost every major airline has routes which they break even on simply to maintain a presence or turn a profit on the connections. You have a failed/flawed argument.

 

[Lake Alice]

At any cost you will blame a union for, well, pretty much anything you can. Conversely should the airline become profitable it's clearly has nothing to do with the union but a well executed business plan with excellent management. Your arguments, like most, contain little fact.

 

[BeachBummer]

Was an ALPA supporter, paid dues until, I lost my job and the airline went out of business..

AH... quote of the year! you win man!

The union made all those bad business decisions that sent your company into ablivion. Managment had nothing, zero, zip, nada, nill, to do with it. ALL the unions fault. yea. Not the decisions that managment made... just ALPA National. I bet it was the president of ALPA that stole all that money and funnled it into places and ran off with a golden parachute. What a basterd that guy is.

Were you at the $4/napkin company or one of the others?

 

[Lake Alice]

Blaming a union for an airline going out of business is the most baseless, ridiculous, retarded, ignorant and pathetic argument to date.

Yips argument will be that a union holds a corporation hostage. A union forces management into bad decisions. The pilots group will simply go on strike.

Comedy at it's poorest.

 

[pilotyip]

Blaming a union for an airline going out of business is the most baseless, ridiculous, retarded, ignorant and pathetic argument to date.

Yips argument will be that a union holds a corporation hostage. A union forces management into bad decisions. The pilots group will simply go on strike.

Comedy at it's poorest.

Originally Posted by Lake Alice View Post (is this the comedy you posted about?)

In the end Unions are a necessary evil. Trouble is the necessity often turns evil. The union activists that move to the forefront of union leadership continue to sell the promises of increased pay, days off and benefits in order justify the union’s existence and why the pilots are paying dues. The defiant battle cry of we will show them who is boss rings through the union halls in defiance of the reality of the airline marketplace.

From the posting here, I have guess you have changed your mind Is it now that unions can do no wrong and management can do no good. Somewhere in between is most likely the case. I am just expressing my opinion from years in this business

But what about when unions price themselves out of the market, and non-union companies such Toyota, Virgin Air, etc step in and offer the consumers a similar product at a lower price. Why do union members support non-union places of work, i.e. all the UAW Buy American stickers on the bumpers of the cars parked in the Wal-Mart parking lot? If Bob King, had followed the old tactics of the UAW, he would have most likely destroy the remainder of the US auto industry. But he followed the tactic of the Germans unions, where raises in pay or benefits are more than offset by increases in productivity, he may truly become an American hero. No more jobs bank, no more 76-job classifications. In the end the consumer of a product determines the wages paid to the employees.

Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job. But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attracting employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues.

 

[BeachBummer]

I love how you compare airline pilots with car manufacturing line labor. Explains everything. Pilot = wrench turn... got it. Go to work, fly plane go home. yep. It's so simple it's stupid. I think we should play job swap!! tell ya what, I will go to detroit and do ANY! any job that any person on the ford assembly line does with two hours of instruction. Weld? paint? robotic arm programing? Ok, I'll give, you have me at design but thats hardly a line job now is it? Give any auto worker two hours of instruction and see if they can do my job... pick one.

just to clarify... both your companies suffered from ownership/managment that found a better way to make money? ok just makin sure. I love how that's the unions fault. So you picked poor airlines to work for and it's alpa's fault. Your managment found they couldn't manage the company and it's alpa's fault. I see.

I wonder for wonders sake, if yip had gone to work for South west instead of Zanflop he would still have the same outlook.

 

[pilotyip]

I love how you compare airline pilots with car manufacturing line labor. Explains everything. Pilot = wrench turn... got it. Go to work, fly plane go home. yep. It's so simple it's stupid. I think we should play job swap!! tell ya what, I will go to detroit and do ANY! any job that any person on the ford assembly line does with two hours of instruction. Weld? paint? robotic arm programing? I wonder for wonders sake, if yip had gone to work for South west instead of Zanflop he would still have the same outlook.

I used the UAW as an example of a change in union tactics to co-operate with both side to make the company stronger.

My experience with airline unions doesn't match that approach. Don't think I would be any different if I was a SWA, I would just pray the company did not go out of business and put me on the street again.

I listened to the activists at my two union airlines about what we deserved and how they should go about getting it. The standard battle cry of the union promoter, "More pay and more days off", until I had all my days off and no pay.

As per before a union can not give you job security, not that anything else can give you job security.

 

[aircombat]

Here's a fact:

SWA keeps costs low by paying their pilots the lowest wages in the industry..

Southwest pays it's pilots the lowest wages in the industry? You better tell them that because I don't think they got the memo. A year one captain at Southwest would make more than JetBlue's top pay.

 

[BeachBummer]

Southwest pays it's pilots the lowest wages in the industry? You better tell them that because I don't think they got the memo. A year one captain at Southwest would make more than JetBlue's top pay.

Try and keep up... Read everything first then note "sarcasm".

 

[aircombat]

Try and keep up... Read everything first then note "sarcasm".

I did read it. You sound arrogant a lot but not sarcastic.

 

[BeachBummer]

ok fine, then you missed the direction of a blatently false statment that was purposfully posted in order to show the irony of anothers comment...

 

[BeachBummer]

I used the UAW as an example of a change in union tactics to co-operate with both side to make the company stronger.

My experience with airline unions doesn't match that approach. Don't think I would be any different if I was a SWA, I would just pray the company did not go out of business and put me on the street again.

I listened to the activists at my two union airlines about what we deserved and how they should go about getting it. The standard battle cry of the union promoter, "More pay and more days off", until I had all my days off and no pay.

As per before a union can not give you job security, not that anything else can give you job security.

Yip, since there is no changing anyones mind here we'll just have to disagree. While we have both had similar experience with job loss I still have to maintain that a union carrier will uphold a better quality of life provided that carrier is viable. That viability is all up to managment and I will concede you're correct that if the company goes away, the union can't help you.

 

[fifty30retard]

From the posting here, I have guess you have changed your mind Is it now that unions can do no wrong and management can do no good. Somewhere in between is most likely the case. I am just expressing my opinion from years in this business

But what about when unions price themselves out of the market, and non-union companies such Toyota, Virgin Air, etc step in and offer the consumers a similar product at a lower price. Why do union members support non-union places of work, i.e. all the UAW Buy American stickers on the bumpers of the cars parked in the Wal-Mart parking lot? If Bob King, had followed the old tactics of the UAW, he would have most likely destroy the remainder of the US auto industry. But he followed the tactic of the Germans unions, where raises in pay or benefits are more than offset by increases in productivity, he may truly become an American hero. No more jobs bank, no more 76-job classifications. In the end the consumer of a product determines the wages paid to the employees.

Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job. But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attracting employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues.

Those aren't airlines. Jetblue is an airline, it is a major airline, with billions of dollars in annual revenue. We want our share of it, your ridiculous career path withstanding.

 

[pilotyip]

your ridiculous career path withstanding.

Thank you, me and a few dozen of my friends have had wonderful ridiculous career paths after picking airlines that would never go out business because they were making millions, places like Braniff, Eastern, National, Pam-Am, etc, etc, etc.