Jetblue Seniority

[conman]

So who cares what the pay listed beyond year 5 is? Once the aircraft starts making money and jetBlue raises the pay on the EMB-190 comensurate with industry standards would you be man enough to admit you were wrong? I wonder


You should care what the pay is beyond year 5. If you are allowed to participate in negotiations I promise JB will be making all of their arguments based on those numbers.


All due respect but your second sentence shows how naive pilots really are. Look at FedEx and UPS. These are two companies that are highly profitable. Ask their pilots how easy their contract negotiations are/were.

With respect to your last point it would be my pleasure to admit I was wrong. Unfortunately JB has set the 100 seat standard and it isn't pretty. Look at the USAir 100 seat rates, the NWA and DL 100 seat proposal.

 

[zonker]

Did you take a gander at what Delta management wants as a top rate for the B756? It's less than what Airtran is making to fly the 717/737. Are you going to trash the Delta pilots too?

Kind of difficult to "defend the profession", when jet fuel is in excess of $100 a barrel.

 

[conman]

Kind of difficult to "defend the profession", when jet fuel is in excess of $100 a barrel.


Dear Zonker,


Why is it that Airline employees feel obligated to subsidize cheap airline tickets with their salaries?????

 

[G4G5]

jbucpt]none...........AA is on the brink of bankruptcy, (pilots will have to give back) SWA only made a profit due to intelligent management hedging fuel....airtran will post a lost for the year ( pilots will have to give back) and UPS is not in the passenger carrier business.. i.e. little competition....

the only thing pilot unions proved the last 4 years is how quick it can GIVE BACK.... that 2% was money well spent???

Sorry, I can't live in your fantasy world, I like to use facts. How much have the Airtran pilots given back? How much has mgt come asking for? Please provide your sources. WSJ, NYTimes?

How much have the SWA pilots given back? The last time I checked they were still the highest paid 737 pilots around. But please feel free to provide data to the contrary.

When pilots apply for a job they don't care if it's UPS, FEDEX or Jetblue. Get over it, a cockpit is a cockpit.

AA is the best run legacy. They have over $3.5 bilion in free cash (Jetblues market capt in under $2 billion which is lower then AA's. Now add in the fact that pension reform for the legacy carriers is in Congress as we speak. Just another little fact AA has contributed over $230 million towards the pension this year and they are the highest funded legacy carrier.

The last time I checked Even with the give backs you refer to 12 year AA MD80 ca's are making $154 an hour vs $139 for 12 year B6 A320 Ca's. Even with the give backs that you refer that's still $15 an hour higher then the highest B6 rates. Now lets not forget AA still has a 12.25% (1.25% A fund and 11% b fund) VS Jetblues (ZERO A fund and ZERO B Fund).


whats smarter, starting at a lower rate gradually going up or taking it in the A$$ and giving it back????

What smarter NEVER having the money and hoping that mgt will just come knocking on the door offering to just give you a raise. Or getting the money up front and then having to give it back? I'll take AA's, UPS. Airtrans, SWA (or any other independent pilots union) rates VS yours, any day of the week

 

[zonker]

Kind of difficult to "defend the profession", when jet fuel is in excess of $100 a barrel.


Dear Zonker,


Why is it that Airline employees feel obligated to subsidize cheap airline tickets with their salaries?????

Who said that they do?

 

[G4G5]

Conman
Maybe your right maybe your wrong. Only time will tell. There are no 5 year EMB-190 Captains right now let alone a 12 year one. So who cares what the pay listed beyond year 5 is? Once the aircraft starts making money and jetBlue raises the pay on the EMB-190 comensurate with industry standards would you be man enough to admit you were wrong? I wonder?

AA 12 year CA MD80 rate is $154 an hour VS JetBlues $139.
AA 12 year MD fo rate is $105 VS Jetblues $76

Now add in the 12.25% retirement VS Jetblues NOTHING. This is after AA's give backs.

Hypothetcal raises are real nice in the bizzaro world. Ask a UAL 747 ca about it. When dealing in truths you have to deal with what the contract rate is, not what yo think it will be.

 

[semperfido]

Why is it that Airline employees feel obligated to subsidize cheap airline tickets with their salaries?????

it is a free market. if you don't want the job--don't take it. why should airline employees be treated any differently than the guy that works a job at xyz corp?

 

[conman]

it is a free market. if you don't want the job--don't take it. why should airline employees be treated any differently than the guy that works a job at xyz corp?


Airline Pilot jobs in this country have zero threat of being shipped overseas.

WE WILL SIMPLY DO IT TO OURSELVES!!!!!!

 

[80drvr]

AA 12 year CA MD80 rate is $154 an hour VS JetBlues $139.
AA 12 year MD fo rate is $105 VS Jetblues $76

Now add in the 12.25% retirement VS Jetblues NOTHING. This is after AA's give backs.

You're understating the A Fund as a percentage of pay. It's 1.25% X Final Average Earnings X Years of Service. This ends up costing the company somewhere between 4-7% of earnings to fund.

 

[G4G5]

You're understating the A Fund as a percentage of pay. It's 1.25% X Final Average Earnings X Years of Service. This ends up costing the company somewhere between 4-7% of earnings to fund.

You are correct, my point was that it is an additional source of compensation available to the AA pilots, even after the give backs. Something that the Jetblue pilots don't get.

Now granted they get profit sharing, which has been good for them so far. It's something the AA pilots don't get but it's not guranteed and their is no reasonable track record to base any realistic calculations from. For their sake I hope it keeps coming.

 

[IB6 UB9]

G4G5,

Speaking of dealing in the fantasy world, can you provide me with the seniority numbers of the 12 yr B6 guys you are refering to?

 

[A350]

G4G5:

Your 320 numbers for JB are wrong....we are paid 1.5 times the going rate for everything above 70 hours....

So the effective 12 year rate for 85 hours is $151 per hour.


Facts are facts.

A350

 

[G4G5]

G4G5:

Your 320 numbers for JB are wrong....we are paid 1.5 times the going rate for everything above 70 hours....

So the effective 12 year rate for 85 hours is $151 per hour.


Facts are facts.

A350

What's your MONTHLY GURANTEE?
70 HOURS!!!
Every airline pilot including the AA pilots have the ability to fly above 70 but you need to compare apples to apples.

If the numbers are wrong please tell it to Airline pilot central

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/51/17/

 

[G4G5]

G4G5,

Speaking of dealing in the fantasy world, can you provide me with the seniority numbers of the 12 yr B6 guys you are refering to?

The contract is reality you have to go by those numbers. Sure their are no 12 year Jetblue CA's but their are no 5-6 year AA MD80 capt's either. Like it or not every industry comparison is based off of 12 year CA rates.

But if it makes you happy, 5th year Jetblue A32 ca is $121 vs $146 for 5th year AA MD80 CA.

 

[zonker]

And so G4G5 continues his relentless assault on JB pilots, as he has identified them as a primary source of the problems that plague our industry.

It's quite admirable, apparently.

 

[A350]

G4G5:

There is no 70 hour guarantee. There is a 75 hour guarantee. That is for a reserve pilot. No such 12 year reserve pilot at JB.

If you want to compare apples to apples, look at total compensation for a 5 year JB CA and then look at a 5 year CA from AA....oh yeah, there are no 5 year CA's at AA. There are no 15 year CA's at USAirways.

I am not going to tell "airline pilot central" anything. If they post crappy info, that is their problem.

Take a little advice. Be damn glad you are a G5 CA and enjoy YOUR life and quit worrying about the lives of others, as you have no dog in the fight anyway.

A350

 

[Sailpilot]

What's your MONTHLY GURANTEE?
70 HOURS!!!
Every airline pilot including the AA pilots have the ability to fly above 70 but you need to compare apples to apples.

If the numbers are wrong please tell it to Airline pilot central

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/51/17/

Apples to apples?
If you are making your statement about Guarantee times only?
Then AA is only 63 hours
JB is 70 hours
Look any closer with that math.

I don't have a dog in this fight but please quit only quoting base pay and not 1.5 after 70 one second and then state only guarantee counts and leave out the minus 7 hours at AA for the month. You are leaving out just the right amount of info to make your point sound valid.

I will return you to your regularly scheduled B!7ch season now...

I don't pick a winner in this topic, only trying to stick with "apples to apples"
No animals were hurt during this transmission

 

[elag777]

Apples to apples?
If you are making your statement about Gurantee times only?
Then AA is only 63 hours, and multiply
JB is 70 hours
Looking closer with that math.

I don't have a dog in this fight but please quit only quoting base pay and not 1.5 after 70 one second and then state only gurantee counts and leave out the minus 7 hours at AA for the month. You are worse than my kids leaving out just the right amount of info to make your point sound valid.

I will return you to your regularly scheduled B!7ch season now...

I don't pick a winner in this topic, only trying to stick with "apples to apples"
No animals were hurt during this transmission

Maybe your kids make better sense SailP

G4G5 I think you may have a problem with you next drug test..

 

[G4G5]

Hourly pay rates are the only way to do a direct compairson.

Trying to denfend your argument by saying, but we get time and a half above 75 is pathetic. What you are saying is, it's OK to pay us less because we get to work harder to make it up.

Are pilots required to fly above 75 hours?
Does Every Jetblue pilot fly above 75?
If your answer is No to both, you have just proven my point.

What about reserve guys do they regulaly get to fly above 75 and recieve time and a half?

I can pull all sorts of what if's out of my but too. But Apples to Apples has always been 12 year pay rates.

 

[sayagain?]

What about reserve guys do they regulaly get to fly above 75 and recieve time and a half?

Only been online for three months and I've flown over 75 hours each month. On schedule to break 75 again for October, which should be my last month on reserve as an FO.

 

[fifty30retard]

Hourly pay rates are the only way to do a direct compairson.

Trying to denfend your argument by saying, but we get time and a half above 75 is pathetic. What you are saying is, it's OK to pay us less because we get to work harder to make it up.

Really? Well that $3500 extra dollars I made going above guarantee didn't seem too pathetic. Get over yourself G4.

 

[A350]

G4G5:

By my math a 5 year JB CA makes $136K and the AMR 12 CA makes $ 116 K per their contract.

A350

 

[jbucpt]

AA is the best run legacy. They have over $3.5 bilion in free cash (Jetblues market capt in under $2 billion which is lower then AA's. Now add in the fact that pension reform for the legacy carriers is in Congress as we speak. Just another little fact AA has contributed over $230 million towards the pension this year and they are the highest funded legacy carrier.

The last time I checked Even with the give backs you refer to 12 year AA MD80 ca's are making $154 an hour vs $139 for 12 year B6 A320 Ca's. Even with the give backs that you refer that's still $15 an hour higher then the highest B6 rates. Now lets not forget AA still has a 12.25% (1.25% A fund and 11% b fund) VS Jetblues (ZERO A fund and ZERO B Fund).


whats smarter, starting at a lower rate gradually going up or taking it in the A$$ and giving it back????

What smarter NEVER having the money and hoping that mgt will just come knocking on the door offering to just give you a raise. Or getting the money up front and then having to give it back? I'll take AA's, UPS. Airtrans, SWA (or any other independent pilots union) rates VS yours, any day of the week[/quote]



your failed to mention how SWAPA got to those payrates: they gradually grew over time. when did SWAPA EVER GIVE BACK??? you also failed to mention that when southwest first started flying it was a sweatshop. that is why SWAPA was created. a far cry of what jetblue is.

i agree that AA is well run. however, it will be VERY DIFFICULT for them to compete when your ALPA carriers are in bankruptcy and its pilot UNIONS are GIVING EVERYTHING BACK.... its only a matter of time before AA and Continental go into bankruptcy with its pilots facing the same ultimatum, and there wont be a thing a union can do about it. (i.e. united, usair, and soon dalpa).

with airtran posting a lost for the year, guess who will be ask first to give concessions.. watching the track record of your other UNION BOYS they'll follow the norm.........2% well spent???

 

[80drvr]

G4G5:

By my math a 5 year JB CA makes $136K and the AMR 12 CA makes $ 116 K per their contract.

A350

What kind of math is that? I don't know what a 5 year Jet Blue Capt makes, but a 12 year AA Capt makes more than that in gross pay (143+ at avg line value).

 

[G4G5]

Really? Well that $3500 extra dollars I made going above guarantee didn't seem too pathetic. Get over yourself G4.

So you had to work extra days to make that extra money. That equates to days away from your family, and lower q of L.

That is pathetic

I am sure you can make up those missed days with the wife and kids next month. Oh, that right you need to fly 85+ hours next month.

 

[G4G5]

In a few minutes

 

[G4G5]

jbucpt]

your failed to mention how SWAPA got to those payrates: they gradually grew over time. when did SWAPA EVER GIVE BACK??? you also failed to mention that when southwest first started flying it was a sweatshop. that is why SWAPA was created. a far cry of what jetblue is.

Really, what do you call $37 an hour for a 190 FO? I call it a sweatshop.
$37 x 75 (reserve gurantee) x 12 months= $33,300 for getting to sit in a crash pad in Kew Gardens. Give 1/3 back to uncle sam and that pilot takes home $22,100 a year or $425 a week / an average 40 hour work week = $10.63 an hour take home.

Sooner or later the growth slows down and someone is going to get stuck in that seat when the music stops.

i agree that AA is well run. however, it will be VERY DIFFICULT for them to compete when your ALPA carriers are in bankruptcy and its pilot UNIONS are GIVING EVERYTHING BACK.... its only a matter of time before AA and Continental go into bankruptcy with its pilots facing the same ultimatum, and there wont be a thing a union can do about it. (i.e. united, usair, and soon dalpa).

Again where is your proof? If AA and CAL were planning on BK they would have done it prior to the 10/17 law changes.

with airtran posting a lost for the year, guess who will be ask first to give concessions.. watching the track record of your other UNION BOYS they'll follow the norm.........2% well spent???

Once again you are stating opinion vs Facts. Airtran has given NOTHING back so far. What happens next quater when Jetblue doesn't turn a profit, they are already canceling flights and telling wall street to beware? Will they do the same thing that you are telling us Airtran mgt will do?

 

[conman]

Dear A350,


Please show me where your came up with those numbers. I think your comparison is flawed.

 

[G4G5]

G4G5:

By my math a 5 year JB CA makes $136K and the AMR 12 CA makes $ 116 K per their contract.

A350

I like new math maybe you can show us where you got yours from.

First some simple facts.

JetBlue.
5th year capt A320 pay rate is $121 an hour
Line gurantee is 70 hours
Reserve gurantee is 75 hours

AA
5th year ca MD80 is $154
12th year ca md80 is $146
Line gurantee is 73 hours
reserve gurantee is 64 hours

Now the REAL math.
Line holder
12 year AA ca - $154 x 73 = $11,242 x 12= $134,904
5 year AA ca - $146 x 73 = $10,658 x 12 = $127,896
5 year Jetblue cs - $121 x 70 = $8,470 x 12 = $101,640

Reserve
5 year Jetblue ca - $121 x 75 = 9075 x 12= $108,900
12 year AA ca - $154 x 64 =9856 x 12 = $118,272
5 year AA ca - $146 x 64= 9344 x 12= $112,128

Reserve gurantee at AA is set lower to gurantee a higher Q of L. It also creats more jobs.

Just an FYI. A 5 year reserve Jetblue pilot has to fly 75 for the company to break even on utilization, otherwise why would they offer to pay a gurantee of 75 hours? That's 9 hours a month more then the reserve pilot at AA flys a month. Or the equivalent of 108 hours a year (another month of flying) just so he can make $3,000 less annually.

I showed you mine now you show me yours, this should be good.

 

[B6Guy]

Still flawed math

G4, go back and compute the 5 hours over 70 for Jetblue CA at 1.5x121 and do your math again.

I come up with $9377.5/mo x 12 = $112530

The way jetblue set up the pay scale is brilliant: it caters to the natural greed of the pilot. Work more, get paid at a higher rate.

You constantly twist and ignore facts selectively to make a false statements that support your point of view.

I think the reason you are so passionate about bashing B6 that you either turned down an inteview or got rejected and have since been bashing JetBlue to make yourself feel better.

The phrase 'you don't have a dog in this fight' has been stated over and over, get over yourself and enjoy your G4/5.