JetBlue PVC has voted to give away flying!

[jonjuan]

Dont do it... its like your virginity, once you give it away then its gone for good!

Same thing could be said about going to work for a LCC start up (B6, VX, AAI) at wages well below industry standard in an effort to put fare pressure on established carriers.

 

[Flyby1206]

Same thing could be said about going to work for a LCC start up (B6, VX, AAI) at wages well below industry standard in an effort to put fare pressure on established carriers.

Yea good point. But I think the hatred comes where you see a tiny RJ flying through your hubs with your logo on the tail and Jetblue Express on the side of the aircraft, but the employees are some regional-of-the-month who does the dirty work cheaper than anyone else can.

At least the low paid LCCs like Allegiant, Spirit, SunCountry, etc all have their own brand and arent direct outsourcing like the regionals have.

 

[Caveman]

Same thing could be said about going to work for a LCC start up (B6, VX, AAI) at wages well below industry standard in an effort to put fare pressure on established carriers.

Just where exactly is it written that ONLY established carriers have the right to be in business? Every legacy was a startup at some point.

In every sector of the economy there is competition. Why the legacy airlines think they should be exempt from that normality is beyond me.

 

[i fly boxes]

so why did this come about, is jetblue management trying to get this by giving you raises or is there an order for smaller jets? How many seats does the E190 have?

 

[RiddleEagle18]

I really think this is for AE ATRS in San Juan. I hate to see scope go anywhere though.

Wondering if it would it change anyone's mind if it limited in to 78 seat props?

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

so why did this come about, is jetblue management trying to get this by giving you raises or is there an order for smaller jets? How many seats does the E190 have?

There has been an effort to codify the relationship the pilots have with JetBlue through a series of documents. These cover a number of important topics including scope as currently we have NONE. Apparently our pilot committee and the company have reached some type of agreement that will ultimately have to be voted on by the pilot group. The documents have not been released yet, but we have some members that run to the internet to cry like little girls about what they've heard. They think their irrational behavior helps the current drive, but ultimately, they do more damage than good. Personally, I support the ALPA drive, but the most vocal pro-ALPA guys make the status quo seem more appealing. The risk of one of these nuts holding an ALPA position encourages apprehension.

 

[DonVersteed]

There has been an effort to codify the relationship the pilots have with JetBlue through a series of documents. These cover a number of important topics including scope as currently we have NONE. Apparently our pilot committee and the company have reached some type of agreement that will ultimately have to be voted on by the pilot group. The documents have not been released yet, but we have some members that run to the internet to cry like little girls about what they've heard. They think their irrational behavior helps the current drive, but ultimately, they do more damage than good. Personally, I support the ALPA drive, but the most vocal pro-ALPA guys make the status quo seem more appealing. The risk of one of these nuts holding an ALPA position encourages apprehension.

You are exactly right. I'm embarassed at all the non factual, emotional trash that gets spewed by very few people. I'm telling you, the single weakest link in the ALPA drive is the most vocal few, who constanly over reacting to what they hear and fear, vs reacting to what they know as fact. False information only makes the Chest beaters look like fools.

 

[n757st]

You are exactly right. I'm embarassed at all the non factual, emotional trash that gets spewed by very few people. I'm telling you, the single weakest link in the ALPA drive is the most vocal few, who constanly over reacting to what they hear and fear, vs reacting to what they know as fact. False information only makes the Chest beaters look like fools.

Wow, perfect statement. Kudos.

* not pro or anti alpa. When the vote comes ill weigh all the information I have and make a rational decision.

 

[rjpilot7667]

You are exactly right. I'm embarassed at all the non factual, emotional trash that gets spewed by very few people. I'm telling you, the single weakest link in the ALPA drive is the most vocal few, who constanly over reacting to what they hear and fear, vs reacting to what they know as fact. False information only makes the Chest beaters look like fools.

I agree. I am almost insulted at all of the rhetoric and statements like," we must be the dumbest pilot group ever to let this continue" (almost; because I've considered the source). The scare tactics are more likely to scare people away rather than recruit them. I for one am pro-union and pro-jetBlue. I didn't need to be frightened into my decision; I think as the company expands and the pilot group grows an organized labor segment can actually help in making the company stronger.

 

[BeachBummer]

I really think this is for AE ATRS in San Juan. I hate to see scope go anywhere though.

Wondering if it would it change anyone's mind if it limited in to 78 seat props?

I don't care if it's a C-150... It should be a JB pilot if it has a JB tail... end story.

 

[DonVersteed]

I don't care if it's a C-150... It should be a JB pilot if it has a JB tail... end story.

I agree... However, I don't like the speculation as to what the documents will say. In other words, the hype on this board and others, if proven incorrect, does more harm than good. Let's just wait and see what they say. Instead of guessing and reacting to rumors and spreading all the hype on these boards. I'll be the first to tell anyone on the ELT that they ruined a lot of good will if they try or suggest outsourcing.

 

[Lake Alice]

Many of us have spoken directly to the people who voted for and against these documents. These documents are not in our best interest. They are in the best interest of Jetblue. They do allow Jetblue to separate operations. They do essentially set up Jetblue as a holding company. They do allow outsourcing. They were signed by four pilots out of seven. These are indisputable facts.

Jetblue is a company who is looking out for itself and not its employees. Again, these are facts.

 

[DonVersteed]

Many of us have spoken directly to the people who voted for and against these documents. These documents are not in our best interest. They are in the best interest of Jetblue. They do allow Jetblue to separate operations. They do essentially set up Jetblue as a holding company. They do allow outsourcing. They were signed by four pilots out of seven. These are indisputable facts.

Jetblue is a company who is looking out for itself and not its employees. Again, these are facts.

Well, let's take a look and vote against them and get on with the ALPA drive. I'm just saying let's deal with facts once they are exposed and move on logically. I think that approach, is the one that makes sense and will help people make a good decision based on fact and not rumor. Right now there is no official document for us to look at.

 

[Lake Alice]

Fair enough.

 

[IrishjbPilot]

Here is a crazy idea DV...call one of the PVC members and ask them directly. I talked to 3 of them independently and outside of their difference of opinion (how they voted), the facts were the facts. They all admitted to 10% asm's and 78 seat limitations being put in place via the documents. Now, will it be approved by us, the pilot group....NO but its still in one of the 5 documents (section 15 document). If you dont belive us, just call one of them, any of them and ask. They can and will talk about it with you.

 

[cgmason1]

Hopefully after the documents are made public we can get on with the ALPA Drive.

Or even better...lets get on with it now.

Please....

 

[DonVersteed]

Here is a crazy idea DV...call one of the PVC members and ask them directly. I talked to 3 of them independently and outside of their difference of opinion (how they voted), the facts were the facts. They all admitted to 10% asm's and 78 seat limitations being put in place via the documents. Now, will it be approved by us, the pilot group....NO but its still in one of the 5 documents (section 15 document). If you dont belive us, just call one of them, any of them and ask. They can and will talk about it with you.

Here is a crazy idea? This is the type of crap I'm talking about. Screw you, and the horse you rode in on. I'll call them if I had their number but I don't. Just like I don't think you have thier number. You can say it as fact, but until we all see the documents I'm not going to speculate as to what they say. You may be right, but they haven't been published yet and until they are, you are just speculating. Take your inside info. and use it how you like, but I will react when they are published as what is officially proposed.

 

[BeachBummer]

Go to the pvc web site... they are all there if you would like to make a phone call. Or, if you don't wanna call, send an email, you know their names right?

go to the company web: pilots===> values committee===> contacts
drop em a line.

if your not a jb pilot don't bother clicking it's pw protected site.

By the way, I'm with you on all the speculation.

this one is gonna be a bombshell and we (the pilots) are gonna take the hit. This "different" airline is setting up to be just like every one else. I truly hope we're wrong.

 

[Dizel8]

They all admitted to 10% asm's and 78 seat limitations being put in place via the documents.

That's is what I got from talking to a couple of them!

 

[F9 A319]

Hypothetically, if this is true and if the pilots vote "No" on it, will the Company honor the vote?

Has Management done or not done something based on a vote of the pilots in the past?

If the vote is a resounding "No" (or even if it's a close "No") and they proceed anyway, do you have any recourse?

Prior to getting the Bus here at F9, Flt Ops Management polled the pilots on whether we wanted "cross hair" or "v-bar" flight directors. We responded 80% in favor of the V-bars, then got a memo that the Company was going with cross hair F/D's because they were cheaper. It would have been better to have never asked in the first place....

Not that it was an issue as important as this.

 

[BeachBummer]

Hypothetically, if this is true and if the pilots vote "No" on it, will the Company honor the vote?.

I wish I knew... I would just have to assume that the company doesn't give a steaming pooo what this pilot group thinks and they are giong to go forward with whatever it is they have planned on doing.

Has Management done or not done something based on a vote of the pilots in the past?.

FSM...

If the vote is a resounding "No" (or even if it's a close "No") and they proceed anyway, do you have any recourse?.

nope

Prior to getting the Bus here at F9, Flt Ops Management polled the pilots on whether we wanted "cross hair" or "v-bar" flight directors. We responded 80% in favor of the V-bars, then got a memo that the Company was going with cross hair F/D's because they were cheaper. It would have been better to have never asked in the first place....

Not that it was an issue as important as this.

Seen this, they make rules change them, break them. Delay, stall, don't show to meetings... the list goes on. They are the perfect managment, they have the work force snowed. The days of Neelmans employee first has come and gone. Lets read the documents!

 

[rjpilot7667]

Here is a crazy idea? This is the type of crap I'm talking about. Screw you, and the horse you rode in on. I'll call them if I had their number but I don't. Just like I don't think you have thier number. You can say it as fact, but until we all see the documents I'm not going to speculate as to what they say. You may be right, but they haven't been published yet and until they are, you are just speculating. Take your inside info. and use it how you like, but I will react when they are published as what is officially proposed.

go to your happy place angry man.

 

[Splert]

Let me ask a few questions as a Newbie.

What Scope protection do we have right now? The way I understand it is we have none.

If ALPA is voted in is it true that all pay, benefits, etc freeze right where they are until a CBA is signed?

In the current environment I think 2-3 years to get a CBA isn't out of the question, so if I'm correct about pay and benefits everything is frozen for that time frame.

Now, back to scope if ALPA is voted in and everything is frozen the way I understand it we would have NO scope protection until a CBA is reached. So hypothetically the company could outsource as much flying as they want. But, if the new scope agreement is passed then 90% of our flying is protected and that number is frozen during CBA negotiations barring the company from giving flying away as a negotiation ploy. This is exactly what happened at Mesa airlines with Freedom. Alpa had no scope and while they were in negotiations management just started shifting flying to freedom so they could gain more negotiating capital.

Again just trying to get a grasp on the situation, perhaps some of my assumptions are wrong or I've gotten some bad info.

thanks

Not correct.

Status quo applies to CBAs. We can argue anti union animus but that is a long shot.

Pay attention to the road shows. You will find that if the PVC goes away so does your so called scope protections.

Good luck.

 

[UpNDownGuy]

Here is a crazy idea? This is the type of crap I'm talking about. Screw you, and the horse you rode in on. I'll call them if I had their number but I don't. Just like I don't think you have thier number. You can say it as fact, but until we all see the documents I'm not going to speculate as to what they say. You may be right, but they haven't been published yet and until they are, you are just speculating. Take your inside info. and use it how you like, but I will react when they are published as what is officially proposed.

And then you lose the moral high ground with your crazed over-reaction to this post. What were you advocating again? A "professional" approach?

 

[RiddleEagle18]

so when is the document supposed to come out?

 

[BeachBummer]

After the verbal "handshake" the PVC should have the "documents" by the 18th for distribution to the pilots by months end. This per the PVC this morning.

 

[Floatplane]

I really think this is for AE ATRS in San Juan. I hate to see scope go anywhere though.

Wondering if it would it change anyone's mind if it limited in to 78 seat props?

No it would not! B6 code, alter ego, etc.......Flown by B6 pilots! End of story.

 

[Draginass]

Sounds like B6 pilots are about to take a royal screwing, without the vaseline.

 

[DonVersteed]

And then you lose the moral high ground with your crazed over-reaction to this post. What were you advocating again? A "professional" approach?

You're right... Nothing left to say.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Is going from zero protection to a 10% limit not an improvement?