JetBlue PVC has voted to give away flying!

[Chairman]

But with no limit on the number of 78 seat flying you can see your 190's parked just as UAL parked there 737's

 

[F9 Driver]

Let me ask a few questions as a Newbie.

What Scope protection do we have right now? The way I understand it is we have none.

If ALPA is voted in is it true that all pay, benefits, etc freeze right where they are until a CBA is signed?

In the current environment I think 2-3 years to get a CBA isn't out of the question, so if I'm correct about pay and benefits everything is frozen for that time frame.

Now, back to scope if ALPA is voted in and everything is frozen the way I understand it we would have NO scope protection until a CBA is reached. So hypothetically the company could outsource as much flying as they want. But, if the new scope agreement is passed then 90% of our flying is protected and that number is frozen during CBA negotiations barring the company from giving flying away as a negotiation ploy. This is exactly what happened at Mesa airlines with Freedom. Alpa had no scope and while they were in negotiations management just started shifting flying to freedom so they could gain more negotiating capital.

Again just trying to get a grasp on the situation, perhaps some of my assumptions are wrong or I've gotten some bad info.

thanks

I'm not sure, but think that the status quo provision of the RLA would keep management from changing the operation while you negotiate. Of course they could start up another company to do the flying and code share. The Bloch decision at Midwest (that RAH flying 170s in Midwest livery wasn't a scope violation - simply code share) has gone unnoticed or unreported by labor, but I assure you that it hasn't by management.

 

[RiddleEagle18]

American eagle ATRs in san juan

 

[Lake Alice]

I don't like I said I'm a newbie just trying to get a picture of the situation. I would just hate to be 4 years down the road No CBA in sight and all the 190 flying has gone to Republic, when it could have been capped at 10% before ALPA was ever on the property. Like I said just trying to gain some perspective so I can make an informed decision.

thanks

What the PVC has essentially done is provide Jetblue with a mechanism to start a separate airline, run separate flights with separate aircraft provided they aren't 320's. This is precisely what happens when you have pro-company pilots collaborating with company lawyers and subject matter experts. Non of the 4 who voted in favor have any true understanding of what scope is. But hey, just like the Ban of Blue will tell you, Dave and Jetblue will take care of you.

 

[Lake Alice]

I'm not sure, but think that the status quo provision of the RLA would keep management from changing the operation while you negotiate. Of course they could start up another company to do the flying and code share. The Bloch decision at Midwest (that RAH flying 170s in Midwest livery wasn't a scope violation - simply code share) has gone unnoticed or unreported by labor, but I assure you that it hasn't by management.

After you file with the NMB in theory nothing is supposed to change. Jetblue can and will, as they already do, make changes to our operation and our PEA's. The difference is we will be able to sue to reverse the changes. During Hawaiians negotiations their management pulled a similar stunt. ALPA on behalf of the pilot group sued, lost, appealed and won.

 

[Flyby1206]

Dont do it... its like your virginity, once you give it away then its gone for good!

I work for Eagle, and I would be willing to bet we would be one of the regionals in consideration for some flying if you gave up scope. DONT let it happen. Please.

 

[Fubijaakr]

What a disaster! While the same thing could have happened under ALPA, at least the pilots would have had an opportunity to vote on it.

As it stands, blue pilots are left with BOHICA.

Allegiant and Virgin pilots need to take notice of what can and will happen to you without a CBA.

 

[johnsonrod]

Word is that Cape Air is integrating 300+ C402s into the JB system for pax feed. Thankfully there will be a flow-through (both ways) agreement put in place to protect your interests.

 

[Chairman]

What a disaster! While the same thing could have happened under ALPA, at least the pilots would have had an opportunity to vote on it.

At UAL PW signed the side letter to try to save his pension allowing the E170's onto the property with no kind of snap back language if the pension went away. This was not voted on. This eventually let to all the 737 being parked and 1437 pilots going to the street

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

I don't like I said I'm a newbie just trying to get a picture of the situation. I would just hate to be 4 years down the road No CBA in sight and all the 190 flying has gone to Republic, when it could have been capped at 10% before ALPA was ever on the property. Like I said just trying to gain some perspective so I can make an informed decision.

thanks

The fact remains that the company can do whatever it pleases, whenever it pleases, with or without the pilots' consent. Today, the company can say they will cap outsourced flying to 10%. 4 years down the road, they can change the agreement to 20%, etc. A perfect example is the Flight Scheduling Manual 2010. The company changed the manual (our work rules) and implemented it as they saw fit to do. The pilots cannot do a thing about it. This is the reality of the PEA. They have the right to amend it when and how they see fit.

Now let's say 1000 pilots sign a new PEA (allowing outsourced flying capped at 10% in exchange for a raise in pay), and 1000 pilots do not sign the same PEA. Are 1000 pilots (under the old PEA) now immune to the outsourced flying? Let's take it a step further. According to management, each PEA is an individual agreement between the company and the pilot. So if you want to try and enforce your PEA, you have to hire your own lawyer and present your own case to an arbitrator (keep in mind $$$). Can you see how this can be a problem if, say, 1000 pilots try and enforce a PEA? I fail to see how the state of NY would agree to 1000 separate arbitrations (case in point....3A).

My point is this: without a union, we as pilots have zero say in anything the company decides to do. With a union (in this case ALPA), at least we will have a seat at the table with a strong voice......even before a CBA is ever signed! Oh, btw, this ALPA will be made up of JetBlue pilots, elected by JetBlue pilots, and held accountable by JetBlue pilots.

Pro JetBlue
Pro Union
Vote ALPA!

 

[jonjuan]

Dont do it... its like your virginity, once you give it away then its gone for good!

Same thing could be said about going to work for a LCC start up (B6, VX, AAI) at wages well below industry standard in an effort to put fare pressure on established carriers.

 

[Flyby1206]

Same thing could be said about going to work for a LCC start up (B6, VX, AAI) at wages well below industry standard in an effort to put fare pressure on established carriers.

Yea good point. But I think the hatred comes where you see a tiny RJ flying through your hubs with your logo on the tail and Jetblue Express on the side of the aircraft, but the employees are some regional-of-the-month who does the dirty work cheaper than anyone else can.

At least the low paid LCCs like Allegiant, Spirit, SunCountry, etc all have their own brand and arent direct outsourcing like the regionals have.

 

[Caveman]

Same thing could be said about going to work for a LCC start up (B6, VX, AAI) at wages well below industry standard in an effort to put fare pressure on established carriers.

Just where exactly is it written that ONLY established carriers have the right to be in business? Every legacy was a startup at some point.

In every sector of the economy there is competition. Why the legacy airlines think they should be exempt from that normality is beyond me.

 

[i fly boxes]

so why did this come about, is jetblue management trying to get this by giving you raises or is there an order for smaller jets? How many seats does the E190 have?

 

[RiddleEagle18]

I really think this is for AE ATRS in San Juan. I hate to see scope go anywhere though.

Wondering if it would it change anyone's mind if it limited in to 78 seat props?

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

so why did this come about, is jetblue management trying to get this by giving you raises or is there an order for smaller jets? How many seats does the E190 have?

There has been an effort to codify the relationship the pilots have with JetBlue through a series of documents. These cover a number of important topics including scope as currently we have NONE. Apparently our pilot committee and the company have reached some type of agreement that will ultimately have to be voted on by the pilot group. The documents have not been released yet, but we have some members that run to the internet to cry like little girls about what they've heard. They think their irrational behavior helps the current drive, but ultimately, they do more damage than good. Personally, I support the ALPA drive, but the most vocal pro-ALPA guys make the status quo seem more appealing. The risk of one of these nuts holding an ALPA position encourages apprehension.

 

[DonVersteed]

There has been an effort to codify the relationship the pilots have with JetBlue through a series of documents. These cover a number of important topics including scope as currently we have NONE. Apparently our pilot committee and the company have reached some type of agreement that will ultimately have to be voted on by the pilot group. The documents have not been released yet, but we have some members that run to the internet to cry like little girls about what they've heard. They think their irrational behavior helps the current drive, but ultimately, they do more damage than good. Personally, I support the ALPA drive, but the most vocal pro-ALPA guys make the status quo seem more appealing. The risk of one of these nuts holding an ALPA position encourages apprehension.

You are exactly right. I'm embarassed at all the non factual, emotional trash that gets spewed by very few people. I'm telling you, the single weakest link in the ALPA drive is the most vocal few, who constanly over reacting to what they hear and fear, vs reacting to what they know as fact. False information only makes the Chest beaters look like fools.

 

[n757st]

You are exactly right. I'm embarassed at all the non factual, emotional trash that gets spewed by very few people. I'm telling you, the single weakest link in the ALPA drive is the most vocal few, who constanly over reacting to what they hear and fear, vs reacting to what they know as fact. False information only makes the Chest beaters look like fools.

Wow, perfect statement. Kudos.

* not pro or anti alpa. When the vote comes ill weigh all the information I have and make a rational decision.

 

[rjpilot7667]

You are exactly right. I'm embarassed at all the non factual, emotional trash that gets spewed by very few people. I'm telling you, the single weakest link in the ALPA drive is the most vocal few, who constanly over reacting to what they hear and fear, vs reacting to what they know as fact. False information only makes the Chest beaters look like fools.

I agree. I am almost insulted at all of the rhetoric and statements like," we must be the dumbest pilot group ever to let this continue" (almost; because I've considered the source). The scare tactics are more likely to scare people away rather than recruit them. I for one am pro-union and pro-jetBlue. I didn't need to be frightened into my decision; I think as the company expands and the pilot group grows an organized labor segment can actually help in making the company stronger.

 

[BeachBummer]

I really think this is for AE ATRS in San Juan. I hate to see scope go anywhere though.

Wondering if it would it change anyone's mind if it limited in to 78 seat props?

I don't care if it's a C-150... It should be a JB pilot if it has a JB tail... end story.