Jetblue Pilots Vote Union Down

[Andy Neill]

Ok, I guess I wasn't clear in my original posting. What percentage of the list cast a ballot?

33%...

 

[Frap]

33% put their vote on a ballot which had only one choice, that being a "yes to union" vote. There was no "no" choice on the ballot.

Not casting a vote on the ballot equalled a "no" vote.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, that makes sense...

Only 660 pilots voted....

1400 voted no by not voting.

Seems like a pretty strong message.

 

[Andy Neill]

Ok, that makes sense...

Only 660 pilots voted....

1400 voted no by not voting.

Seems like a pretty strong message.

The actual count was
1937 eligible
0 ballots voided
595 for JBPA
49 for ALPA
1 for Silence
1 for UTU (646 total for representation)

Here's the NMB link:
http://www.nmb.gov/electionresults/jetblue-jpa_02-03-09.pdf

 

[Dan Roman]

Anyone at Nortwest/Delta that can confirm or deny the rumor that the names of BOB's is circulating the forums?

If this is true it could be an ugly commute

Only if they were one of the BOB. I have no problem with peoples wide range of opinions on Unions. This is America and we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. But keeping a list of pro union pilots is unbelievable. To do what? Rat them out to management so anti-union pilots can upgrade quicker? I don't know, but the concept is so anti-American and Hitler youth mentality that it blows my mind. The right to vote for a union is one of the freedoms we have as Americans. It's one of the many freedoms we enjoy that countless Americans have died for to protect.

 

[Deli Guy]

Where was ALPA as far as stepping in and making their pitch? When the interest cards were submitted, I expected ALPA to set up some type of informational meetings to recruit for ALPA. Why did that not happen? I really respect the JBPA guys, but I had hoped ALPA would show some interest in the process.

 

[radarlove]

ALPA is very weak-d!ck when it comes to organizing new groups. They demand an overwhelming majority of postcards (the first phase) before they'll even consider "accepting" the new pilot group into the fold, there's never talk these days of actually doing a real organizing drive.

In this case, they probably weren't willing to touch it with a ten-foot pole, there was probably only a 33% card campaign.

ALPA is dying a slow death because they are resting on laurels that are two decades old. I'm already hearing of budget cuts because of the unions that have left the fold.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have talked to all of my buddies at jB about the vote. All were in favor of a Union but many were concerned about the next chapter if the Union were voted in.

It didn't seem like the pilot group had much confidence in a new Union with no clear agenda or leaders. Many pilots stepped up to organize a vote but many pilots did not know who the actual leaders would be.

I bet the vote for many was a NO simply because they didn't know exactly what YES was a vote for. Sometimes bad in hand is better than the unknown behind door #1.

Organization... clear an simple organization is something to definitely have for the next drive. .

This is actually quite pathetic.

We call ourselves Americans?

We call ourselves professional pilots?

We don't don't know to self motivate? Self legislate? Self govern?

What is the fear? that we will all have to actually do something?

Did those who vote for union representation at jetblue expect someone else to do all the work?

People do not reject the status quo unless change is perceived to better....

I thought we lived in America.... you know the greatest democracy in the world... self rule, self government....


The next chapter after voting in a union is manning up and taking control of your careers....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA is very weak-d!ck when it comes to organizing new groups. They demand an overwhelming majority of postcards (the first phase) before they'll even consider "accepting" the new pilot group into the fold, there's never talk these days of actually doing a real organizing drive.

Why should ALPA spend dues money trying to organize a pilot group that is on the fence or clearly doesn't want ALPA?

In this case, they probably weren't willing to touch it with a ten-foot pole, there was probably only a 33% card campaign.

ALPA burned allot of bridges with TWA and USAIR pilots now at jb..... make sense?

ALPA is dying a slow death because they are resting on laurels that are two decades old. I'm already hearing of budget cuts because of the unions that have left the fold.

Not sure about that.... with FX and CAL back, I say the APA comes back to ALPA within 20 years....

As adamant as the APA currently is not to be ALPA, 20 years is relatively close.... what will push the APA to ALPA is the the international market threats...

foreign ownership, cabatoge, work visas for Mexicans to fly our jets...

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Be careful what you wish for, gents. You just may get it.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

While far from a ALPA cheerleader, any union is only as strong as their volunteers. Then once guys volunteer(usually is the same guys) they are constantly criticized from the bleachers. As far as TWA did they not waive their scope?? And now it is ALPA's fault. Their own leadership did this. It would not have been any different had they been independent. Usair guys would not budge from doh, which they were warned was not going to happen. How is this ALPAs fault?? They went for the homerun, lost and then renaged on their word as far as BINDING ARBITRATION. Truely disgusting.. Question for the easties?? If you would have recieved doh without any fences and the immediate upgrades from excersising your seniority out west what would be your reaction if the west had refused to honor this?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Excellent points, Cobra. When things go south, people tend to blame ALPA National for the errors of their local MEC. ALPA National advises. They can't make an MEC do anything. We had a no-strike clause for 25 years. Did ALPA National like it? NO! Did they make us change it? No again.

And as far as the East guys go, do you think that if they had gotten DoH they would have jumped ship? They would have praised ALPA to high heaven while telling the AWA guys to TRY and decertify if they didn't like it knowing all the while AWA didn't have the votes to do so.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

. To do what? Rat them out to management so anti-union pilots can upgrade quicker?

Are you really that dumb? ( I think you are) Um, we don't upgrade based on merit. I bet you blame other races or women when you fail.

The JBPA group presented their case and only 33% accepted it. Quit being a baby and deal with it.

 

[Fubijaakr]

The JBPA group presented their case and only 33% accepted it. Quit being a baby and deal with it.

True. As much as I was hoping JBPA would succeed, the majority of the pilots there voted by NOT voting. No vote was counted (and always is) as a NO vote.

Considering the number of furloughed ex-ALPA and ex-military with no other airline experience on the seniority list, the result isn't really all that much of a surprise.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

True. As much as I was hoping JBPA would succeed, the majority of the pilots there voted by NOT voting. No vote was counted (and always is) as a NO vote.

Considering the number of furloughed ex-ALPA and ex-military with no other airline experience on the seniority list, the result isn't really all that much of a surprise.

I hate to agree with you Fubi, but you're right.
I was one of the 646, but I've heard many of the mil guys lobbying against it.
They have their retirement and insurance so screw the rest of us.
I guess maybe they would say "Screw them, I'm RTB'ing", if one of their squadron mates was in trouble and needed help?

 

[A350]

Fubi/FR8:

You would think that that would have been a consideration for the results....but two of the biggest union chargers were ex-military, first time airline pilots.

Their demeanor during the campaign and since were as good for the JBPA as the Betamax was for Sony.

A350

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Fubi/FR8:

You would think that that would have been a consideration for the results....but two of the biggest union chargers were ex-military, first time airline pilots.

Their demeanor during the campaign and since were as good for the JBPA as the Betamax was for Sony.

A350

You may be right. All my evidence in that area is merely heresay.
The individuals that I actually spoke with had even more pathetic excuses for not voting.

 

[a320drivr]

Word is a NMB investigation will be launched against the BOB's and their list.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I agree with some of this. You are a sorry MFer. You have degraded and helped destroy this profession. There is nothing unique or outstanding except your willingness to work more for less. And yes, you are fools. Do you really think the rest of us would have taken the severe cuts to pay, benefits, pension etc IF there had not been a template?? You were the template. ******************** pay, work rules, no pension, high insurance premimums etc. My personal opinion is that ALPA, APA, IPA, SWAPA etc. should come out as a unified voice and say "no union, no jumpseat". There should be punishment for this. For those that voted yes, maybe there could be some sort of non active member card so those that fought the good fight won't have to struggle to get to work.

How don't you get it? There has never ever ever in the history of US airlines been a pilot group who took pay cuts due to the fact that their competitors earned lower wages than themselves. It has never happened; it doesn't happen; it will not happen. Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not. It's simply a tool used by management and unfortunately some are foolish enough to believe it.

 

[jetflier]

How don't you get it? There has never ever ever in the history of US airlines been a pilot group who took pay cuts due to the fact that their competitors earned lower wages than themselves. It has never happened; it doesn't happen; it will not happen. Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not. It's simply a tool used by management and unfortunately some are foolish enough to believe it.

Truer words have never been spoken....

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi/FR8:

You would think that that would have been a consideration for the results....but two of the biggest union chargers were ex-military, first time airline pilots.

I'm not saying ALL ex-military guys would vote against it. Heck, I'm ex-military and a radical Unionista.

However...

Retired military guys have spent 20 years in a system where individual accomplishment dictates how far you progress. It is also a system, while political, does not seek to exploit labor for profit motives.

Rather the military is based on a system where the Senior Officers' primary concern is for the welfare of his "men" (labor). At least in my branch it was understood that an officer saw to the needs of his men BEFORE he saw to his own.

People indoctrinated in that system generally believe they, as individuals, are responsible for their success and advancement opportunities.

Those of us who have been around the business for awhile know that Companies do not operate like military organizations because they are driven by PROFIT not MISSION.

This is not to say that all ex-military aviators are this way, but a large majority of retired military aviators tend to believe that Corporate Leadership will 'take care of the troops' like the Pentagon Leadership did.

Additionally, as fr8dog points out, retired military aviators have substantial retirement benefits including TriCare and a guaranteed paycheck to supplement their airline income. That alone would tend to make them more "status quo".

 

[Fubijaakr]

How don't you get it? There has never ever ever in the history of US airlines been a pilot group who took pay cuts due to the fact that their competitors earned lower wages than themselves. It has never happened; it doesn't happen; it will not happen.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. When the bankruptcy court imposed lower narrowbody wage rates on both United and USAir pilots, they imposed $129. At that time, that was the jetBlue Airbus pay rate.

Another recent example, 3/4 of Midwest's pilot group took a 100% pay cut because Midwest outsourced their flying to Republic.

 

[bluesideup340]

Another recent example, 3/4 of Midwest's pilot group took a 100% pay cut because Midwest outsourced their flying to Republic.

FYI in case you missed it. Republic is a Union carrier.
So, your point that Unions are the only way to maintain or gain higher paying compensation is wrong.
Since 1978 Pilot Unions have done nothing to imporve the profession. (Scope, Merger protection, Junior to Senior pay gap, age 65 rule, no process to get furloughed Pilots back, etc.)
Deregulation has changed the industry but Pilot Unions have not. The JBPA drive failed because ALPA and the Teamsters have failed many JB Pilots in the past.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The JBPA drive failed because ALPA and the Teamsters have failed many JB Pilots in the past.

Perhaps those previous ALPA and IBT members should consider what would have happened if they weren't represented?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

How don't you get it? There has never ever ever in the history of US airlines been a pilot group who took pay cuts due to the fact that their competitors earned lower wages than themselves. It has never happened; it doesn't happen; it will not happen. Are you ********************ing kidding me?? What planet do you live on? Where do you think legacy mgmts came up with their lowball payrates/workrules? Out of their ass. No, they looked at the bluejets, airtrans, spirits and CAL to a lesser extent etc. Then they went after the weakest (USair, UAL) once done there they picked off DAL and NWA. Yes, we all voted this in because no one had the guts to press to test the judges. We will never know what would have happened. Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not. This part I will agree with. It's simply a tool used by management and unfortunately some are foolish enough to believe it.

We agree again.

 

[ualdriver]

How don't you get it? There has never ever ever in the history of US airlines been a pilot group who took pay cuts due to the fact that their competitors earned lower wages than themselves. It has never happened; it doesn't happen; it will not happen. Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not. It's simply a tool used by management and unfortunately some are foolish enough to believe it.

You fly for Allegiant, do you not? Is that how you rationalize your contract?

You stated, "Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not." I disagree with that statement completely, but let's take your word for it for the sake of argument. If that statement is true, why do you have MD-88 Captains hourly rates as low as $61/hr? Why does it take 4 years for a Allegiant Captain to make $100/hr with virtually no retirement? I mean, YOU stated pilot wages don't make a difference in airline profitability, yet you just got a new contract and accepted a compensation package that by any measure, is well below industry standard.

So guys like me are "foolish" to believe that pilot wages have no affect on profitability........so......... if pilot wages don't affect a company's bottom line (as you state), what does that make you guys for accepting such bottom of the barrel wages? I mean, why didn't your pilot group just point to American's MD-88 wages/retirement, slide that across the table to management, and state, "We'll take those rates and retirement, please. Pilot wages don't affect airline profitability so there's not reason to accept anything less." Is Allegiant your pilot group's favorite charity or something?

Further, are you telling me that when I was following along with UAL's bankruptcy case, that the company's lawyers weren't using the lower wages at Frontier, JetBlue, etc., as a hammer to drive down our narrowbody rates? Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that DIDN'T HAPPEN at my airline? At Delta? At US Air? At Northwest? Man, I must have been imagining all those PowerPoint slides the company was parading in front of the bankruptcy court, telling the judge how "UAL can't compete" with LCC's paying a compensation package less than half what we were making at UAL. I must have dreamed all the "FlightOfficer Cost/ASM" figures the company kept referring to. It must have been a mere coincidence that Legacy narrowbody rates/work rules/retirements got driven down to LCC levels in the early 2000's!

Thanks DaytonaFlyer for bringing me back to reality. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You fly for Allegiant, do you not? Is that how you rationalize your contract?

You stated, "Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not." I disagree with that statement completely, but let's take your word for it for the sake of argument. If that statement is true, why do you have MD-88 Captains hourly rates as low as $61/hr? Why does it take 4 years for a Allegiant Captain to make $100/hr with virtually no retirement? I mean, YOU stated pilot wages don't make a difference in airline profitability, yet you just got a new contract and accepted a compensation package that by any measure, is well below industry standard.

So guys like me are "foolish" to believe that pilot wages have no affect on profitability........so......... if pilot wages don't affect a company's bottom line (as you state), what does that make you guys for accepting such bottom of the barrel wages? I mean, why didn't your pilot group just point to American's MD-88 wages/retirement, slide that across the table to management, and state, "We'll take those rates and retirement, please. Pilot wages don't affect airline profitability so there's not reason to accept anything less." Is Allegiant your pilot group's favorite charity or something?

Further, are you telling me that when I was following along with UAL's bankruptcy case, that the company's lawyers weren't using the lower wages at Frontier, JetBlue, etc., as a hammer to drive down our narrowbody rates? Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that DIDN'T HAPPEN at my airline? At Delta? At US Air? At Northwest? Man, I must have been imagining all those PowerPoint slides the company was parading in front of the bankruptcy court, telling the judge how "UAL can't compete" with LCC's paying a compensation package less than half what we were making at UAL. I must have dreamed all the "FlightOfficer Cost/ASM" figures the company kept referring to. It must have been a mere coincidence that Legacy narrowbody rates/work rules/retirements got driven down to LCC levels in the early 2000's!

Thanks DaytonaFlyer for bringing me back to reality. I don't know what I was thinking.

Just to tag on to that

Allegiant 4th year M88 cpt pay= $100.00/hr
AMR 4th year M88 cpt pay= $152.00/hr
Delta 4th year M88 cpt pay= $138.00/hr

AMR 4th yr M88 F/O pay= $92.00/hr
Delta 4th yr M88 F/O pay= $87.00/hr

Management loves the likes of Allegiant when it comes to comparing pay rates. The Delta guys fought tooth and nail to preserve pay rates in bankruptcy when all their managment was telling them they needed to be in line with southwest pay rates.

 

[Whine Lover]

"There has never ever ever in the history of US airlines been a pilot group who took pay cuts due to the fact that their competitors earned lower wages than themselves. It has never happened; it doesn't happen; it will not happen."

Wrong.

Just to further clarify, as well as add to the examples already stated....


ATA took a trip through bankruptcy court ( the first time ) and guess whose pay scale our pay cuts were based on?

US Airways and United.

It has happened, it continues to happen, and it will happen again in the future.


"Pilot wages have never been enough to make an airline profitable or not. It's simply a tool used by management and unfortunately some are foolish enough to believe it."

Absolutely correct.


YKW

 

[bluesideup340]

Perhaps those previous ALPA and IBT members should consider what would have happened if they weren't represented?

Okay, what has ALPA or the IBT done in the last 30 years to adjust to a free market in avaition. Prior to 1978 ALPA dicided to negotiate for each pilot group seperate pay scales to drive compensation up, which worked well while the CAB was around.
Now the reverse hold true as well. Neither ALPA nor the IBT have a concept in place to prevent this.
So what is that representation are you talking about?

 

[PCL_128]

Okay, what has ALPA or the IBT done in the last 30 years to adjust to a free market in avaition. Prior to 1978 ALPA dicided to negotiate for each pilot group seperate pay scales to drive compensation up, which worked well while the CAB was around.
Now the reverse hold true as well. Neither ALPA nor the IBT have a concept in place to prevent this.
So what is that representation are you talking about?

Pattern bargaining has worked splendidly post-CAB. Remember UAL '00 and DAL '01? It's the bankruptcy laws that are the problem, and ALPA is working on plugging up those holes. Once that's taken care of, management can't come crying to the judge for labor cuts every time their incompetence causes massive losses.