Jetblue Pilots Vote Union Down

[captain caveman]

...and TWA

 

[CTflyer]

I don't think there are any eastern scabs at Jetblue. That would be Airtran. There are, however, lots of USair.

Actually we have 2 or 3 Eastern scabs at JB.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Well this isn't a surprise. It's actually quite typical for the first union vote. When the union drive begins, the senior pilots earning over $150K/yr usually come out strong against union representation. Their seemingly "educated" comments tend to sway many newer, younger, less experienced pilots who in return vote "no" for union representation.

Management breathes a sigh of relief, the senior pilots go back to their homes with their swimming pools and Merdedes Benz's, and the junior pilots go back to their apartments and crash pads thinking they made a good decision; yet they have a lingering concern in the back of their minds.

The following year, the majority of the pilot group begin to realize that they are not the ones bringing home $150K+ and they are not enjoying the fruits of their labor as much as those who voted against the union. The management continues business as usual; pissing off pilots, abusing work rules, and offering nothing in the way of improvements.

The second attempt at unionization usually passes with an overwhelming majority vote. And it only wasted a couple years, thousands of work hours, and many of your hard earned dollars for the rest of the pilot group to pull their heads out of their butts.

I'm sure someday the exact same process will unfold at my airline.

 

[fifty30retard]

This is a truly unfortunate vote for Jet Blue and the industry.

For those of you on the losing side, this is only the beginning. Stay strong, continue to educate your fellow pilots, and don’t give up the fight.

AA767AV8TOR

Great post. Just be nice to the B6 jumpseaters, at least there were 646 of us that voted yes.

 

[nosoupforyou!]

Great post. Just be nice to the B6 jumpseaters, at least there were 646 of us that voted yes.

Including me.

 

[shadesofBS]

My personal action plan.

1. I will never clean another cabin.
2. Public Relations isn't in my pilot agreement and I was never very good at it anyway. There are enough things to worry about in the flight deck and face time in the cabin isn't a good idea with my attitude.
3. When I'm off the clock, it's time to go home.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

While I am disappointed in the results, I hope that next time an ALPA drive will begin. Maybe folks will start to realize that without a union, we will continue to get walked on by management.

I voted for ALPA and will do so next time as well.

GP
Member of the 33%.

 

[jbucpt]

Here's my $.02 given my many years in the airline business: I think you guys made a TERRIBLE mistake. You had a chance and you blew it again.

You need leverage nowadays. How did Southwest get raises during one of the worst recessions in history? How did Netjets get the leading pay/benefits package in the fractional industry by a huge margin? You need collective bargaining to protect your interests and to ensure you are not played with by management. It's called bargaining leverage... I guess your former Eastern scab pilots won again.

Herculean mistake. Don't complain now that you've made your bed - you need to sleep in it.

bargaining leverage??? where have you been the last 8 years einstein?? please explain:

united pilots bargaining leverage the last 8 years..

usair pilots bargaining leverage??

twa pilots bargaining leverage??

delta/nwa seniorty determined by ONE MAN- the
arbitrator...alot of bargaining leverage there.

airtrans bargaining leverage under the RLA the last 4+ years.

yeah, im impressed with the "bargaining leverage" that airline unions have had the last 8 years.

 

[Blue Dude]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Show me where there was bargaining *at all* at JetBlue for the last almost 10 years. Result: less than industry average in almost every area even after everyone else's concessions.

*crickets*

 

[Deli Guy]

Here's my $.02 given my many years in the airline business: I think you guys made a TERRIBLE mistake. You had a chance and you blew it again.

You need leverage nowadays. How did Southwest get raises during one of the worst recessions in history? How did Netjets get the leading pay/benefits package in the fractional industry by a huge margin? You need collective bargaining to protect your interests and to ensure you are not played with by management. It's called bargaining leverage... I guess your former Eastern scab pilots won again.

Herculean mistake. Don't complain now that you've made your bed - you need to sleep in it.

Or....its the first step towards the next attempt. Do the 633 guys who tried get no credit? I really think there were at least 368 pilots who did not vote simply based on Dave Barger's past ideas and loyalty to the original Jetblue. I think a year will probably change a lot of minds. We do not need to sleep in it because that implies surrender.

 

[HalinTexas]

" We Are The Dumbest Pilot Group In The Country!!!! "

No Sir. You have to earn that Title.

Failure to elect a Union is but a step in your Journey.

Next, you must certify a (joke) "In-House" Union.

After several years of seeing through that idiocy, then you must elect The Teamsters.

But, you will not be there yet, Grasshopper.

No. Next, you must de-certify Teamsters and vote in ALPA. ( This is very difficult, and deserves mention to those who have done so. )

Sorry, you are not quite done.

After many years of B.S. politics pulled by little Boys in your group who like to sark each others Peenies while lying to your face....

Then, you will need to have your Airline fail ( after the 1000th LOA where your "Union" gave them everything, for NOTHING )...And, in The End you will need to suffer one or two indescribable ignominies for no reason.

All of the above must happen, before you can OFFICIALLY claim:

" We Are The Dumbest Pilot Group In The Country!!!!"

Good Luck in your quest to recapture the Title.

Lesser Men have gone before you and have been triumphant.

" It takes a small man to fail spectacularly." - YKMKR

Mark, you forgot the: "Let's recall our MEC Chair Every Year" action that results in nothing better.

Unionizing won't solve all your problems. In fact, it will create more. However, if you do, you need to hold your representation accountable.

 

[jbucpt]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Show me where there was bargaining *at all* at JetBlue for the last almost 10 years. Result: less than industry average in almost every area even after everyone else's concessions.

*crickets*

Ill show the same "bargaining leverage" that we have, then the "bargaining leverage" alpa has had i.e giving almost everything back the last 8 years.

the reality is this, when push comes to shove, a CBA or PEA isnt worth the paper its written on. the last 8 years have proven that.

 

[FBN0223]

My personal action plan.

1. I will never clean another cabin.

Cleaning cabins? Please tell me that cleaning the cabin is not an expected flight crew duty. That would go waaaaay beyond just drinking the kool-aid if Jetblue had pilots and FAs actually walking up and down aisles with garbage bags and vacuum cleaners.

 

[clickclickboom]

Any JB pilot that actually cleans is a fool.. If your inflight is on the ball they will ask you to cover the door while they clean.. By the time the last passenger walks off the plane you barely have time to finish your cockpit duties and walk back with a bag in your hand smiling and asking if anyone needs you to run and get them food before they are finished.

If you are the type that dons blue gloves and dives over seats in view of passengers you need a kick in the nuts.

 

[FDJ2]

delta/nwa seniorty determined by ONE MAN- the
arbitrator...alot of bargaining leverage there.

It was a three man panel, not one, the DAL/NWA pilots will receive between 20-30% pay raises over the course of the contract, with former furloughed NWA pilots receiving longevity credit for their time on furlough and each pilot on the DAL/NWA system seniority list will receive on average 3700 shares (not options) of DAL stock. Considering the fact that we are in the middle of one of the worst recessions in modern history, I think it took some leverage to get that.

 

[viper01]

Well this isn't a surprise. It's actually quite typical for the first union vote. When the union drive begins, the senior pilots earning over $150K/yr usually come out strong against union representation. Their seemingly "educated" comments tend to sway many newer, younger, less experienced pilots who in return vote "no" for union representation.

Management breathes a sigh of relief, the senior pilots go back to their homes with their swimming pools and Merdedes Benz's, and the junior pilots go back to their apartments and crash pads thinking they made a good decision; yet they have a lingering concern in the back of their minds.

The following year, the majority of the pilot group begin to realize that they are not the ones bringing home $150K+ and they are not enjoying the fruits of their labor as much as those who voted against the union. The management continues business as usual; pissing off pilots, abusing work rules, and offering nothing in the way of improvements.

The second attempt at unionization usually passes with an overwhelming majority vote. And it only wasted a couple years, thousands of work hours, and many of your hard earned dollars for the rest of the pilot group to pull their heads out of their butts.

I'm sure someday the exact same process will unfold at my airline.

You're right, this should only be phase 1 of 2 for the union drive....not the end of the drive.

 

[AKAAB]

Guys willing to put in the extra effort is not the issue at all and cleaning has never, ever been mandated. So, can we just put that one to bed, please.

What everyone is talking about is the inevitable WoE - Withdrawal of Enthusiasm. This operation only runs because the pilots continually have to step in to fix organization and operational problems at JetBlue. If the pilots weren't constantly putting out the fires created by poor ramp training and procedures, gate agent failure to know and follow company policy, and spurious Dispatch support this airline would come to a screeching halt - or at least a slow crawl.

For myself, I got tired of using my cell phone three or four times a flight because Mx wouldn't answer either of their frequencies at JFK. Now, if my release needs an amendment, I dutifully send and ACARS and wait instead of calling Dispatch, being transferred to Mx, then back to Dispatch (because they can't seem to communicate across the 25 foot gap between them in the Ops room).

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Any JB pilot that actually cleans is a fool.. If your inflight is on the ball they will ask you to cover the door while they clean.. By the time the last passenger walks off the plane you barely have time to finish your cockpit duties and walk back with a bag in your hand smiling and asking if anyone needs you to run and get them food before they are finished.

If you are the type that dons blue gloves and dives over seats in view of passengers you need a kick in the nuts.

As per the FAM 2-31 no flight deck crewmember may replace a F/A during the deplaning process-- per minimum crew requirements. There must be one F/A at the door during deplaning. If you've been doing this in past, you are in conflict with SOP.

As a cleaning JB pilot-- when time and conditions permit, jumpseaters, some at SWA do so as well-- I've seen it; it's simply exemplifying some teamwork-- I'm not below cleaning my aircraft for my customers if it allows for a quicker turn, getting me home sooner!!! Nor am I below helping ground crewmembers with strollers. I'm sorry if we degraded the profession for some, but we've been doing this since day 1 here... We're a different airline and we have unique outstanding pilots here. We're not fools, we just like our jobs and airline that much to contribute to its success-- not like the new generation of people who could care less about performing on their jobs (just look at the customer service around America nowadays)...

 

[FBN0223]

So let me get this straight, the pilots and FAs do clean the cabin at Jetblue?

 

[AKAAB]

So let me get this straight, the pilots and FAs do clean the cabin at Jetblue?

The F/A's have to clean the cabin on turns. The pilots do not, ever.

Some pilots pitch in to help on turns when they have time and are so inclined.

 

[Whine Lover]

" We're not fools, we just like our jobs... "


1) In this rare instance most Pilots and ALL of Management would be able to agree on something...That being, to disagree with the first part of the above statement.


2) I believe Ty Webb referenced your type quite correctly in another recent post.


http://www.drugstore.com/popups/lar...id=662&size=300&trx=29888&trxp1=26529&trxp2=1




YKMKR

 

[GogglesPisano]

I'm not below cleaning my aircraft for my customers if it allows for a quicker turn, getting me home sooner!!!..

I'll mention that to the surgeon who lives next door. "Hey, maybe if you clean up the OR you'll get home sooner and you'll make your customer happy."

Image is everything.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I agree with some of this. You are a sorry MFer. You have degraded and helped destroy this profession. There is nothing unique or outstanding except your willingness to work more for less. And yes, you are fools. Do you really think the rest of us would have taken the severe cuts to pay, benefits, pension etc IF there had not been a template?? You were the template. ******************** pay, work rules, no pension, high insurance premimums etc. My personal opinion is that ALPA, APA, IPA, SWAPA etc. should come out as a unified voice and say "no union, no jumpseat". There should be punishment for this. For those that voted yes, maybe there could be some sort of non active member card so those that fought the good fight won't have to struggle to get to work.

As per the FAM 2-31 no flight deck crewmember may replace a F/A during the deplaning process-- per minimum crew requirements. There must be one F/A at the door during deplaning. If you've been doing this in past, you are in conflict with SOP.

As a cleaning JB pilot-- when time and conditions permit, jumpseaters, some at SWA do so as well-- I've seen it; it's simply exemplifying some teamwork-- I'm not below cleaning my aircraft for my customers if it allows for a quicker turn, getting me home sooner!!! Nor am I below helping ground crewmembers with strollers. I'm sorry if we degraded the profession for some, but we've been doing this since day 1 here... We're a different airline and we have unique outstanding pilots here. We're not fools, we just like our jobs and airline that much to contribute to its success-- not like the new generation of people who could care less about performing on their jobs (just look at the customer service around America nowadays)...

 

[Whine Lover]

" I'm sorry if we degraded the profession..."

Yes, you are sorry.


YKMKR

 

[Whine Lover]

" we've been doing this since day 1 here..."

Mr. Bayou, I believe it is customary in your "neck of the woods" to diddle your Sisters, Mothers, Cousins, and smaller Barnyard animals, and that also has been going on since Day 1 down there.....But, that don't make it right now do it?

YKMKR

 

[Bringupthebird]

We Are The Dumbest Pilot Group In The Country!!!!

There are 1800 pilots who would disagree with you, and think there is a group of 3000 that have you beat by a mile. :laugh:

 

[FBN0223]

I agree with some of this. You are a sorry MFer. You have degraded and helped destroy this profession. There is nothing unique or outstanding except your willingness to work more for less. And yes, you are fools. Do you really think the rest of us would have taken the severe cuts to pay, benefits, pension etc IF there had not been a template?? You were the template. ******************** pay, work rules, no pension, high insurance premimums etc. My personal opinion is that ALPA, APA, IPA, SWAPA etc. should come out as a unified voice and say "no union, no jumpseat". There should be punishment for this. For those that voted yes, maybe there could be some sort of non active member card so those that fought the good fight won't have to struggle to get to work.

Agree. Really too bad that the 30% of JB pilots who do recognize the importance of collective bargaining and voted "yes" will be placed on the same status as an adamant "no" voter.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

On another thread a JB pilot mentioned a list of pilots who were the most anti union. I believe it is called band of blue. That might be the way to deny jumpseats to the true offenders without punishing the guys that tried.

Agree. Really too bad that the 30% of JB pilots who do recognize the importance of collective bargaining and voted "yes" will be placed on the same status as an adamant "no" voter.

 

[hawk996]

Blue Bayou is a member of the "Band of Blue". Go clean the cabin boy wonder.....

You like being the pivot man at the company circle jerk don't ya???

If the MCO base goes away, your life as a commuter will be hell.....But hey your based at home and you only care about yourself, so don't worry about the rest of us.

Enjoy your Barger money shot in 3....2....1...... Good Boy.

 

[On Your Six]

bargaining leverage??? where have you been the last 8 years einstein?? please explain:

united pilots bargaining leverage the last 8 years..

usair pilots bargaining leverage??

twa pilots bargaining leverage??

delta/nwa seniorty determined by ONE MAN- the
arbitrator...alot of bargaining leverage there.

airtrans bargaining leverage under the RLA the last 4+ years.

yeah, im impressed with the "bargaining leverage" that airline unions have had the last 8 years.

Let me guess which way you voted. What J-Rod says is true. You need collective bargaining to ensure you are treated fairly - that's a fact. Why wouldn't you want protections that a union can afford? Sure, unions aren't a perfect solution and their leaders are by no means saints. Still, I'd rather have a union supporting me and using its bargaining leverage when possible. SWA has a great union. DAL/NWA had two effective unions - they fought for their respective positions and lobbied the arbitrator effectively for a compromise (it would have been more complex had one airline not had a union - think of it that way). As J-Rod mentioned, Netjets pilots have done very well with their union and they negotiated a great package that Management would have NEVER agreed to without the union's negotiating leverage.

Jet Blue has sub standard benefits (terrible healthcare package) and OK wages. I doubt you will make much progress on those items (once the economy improves) without negotiating leverage. I remeber a former Jet Blue pilot who now flies for Netjets once told me that Jet Blue is the "Wal-Mart" of the industry in terms of pay/benefits. That wasn't a great or loving endorsement. I agree that the decision to vote it down was a strategic blunder from a long-term perspective (the economy will not allow much short-term benefit anyway). Kudos to the guys who tried to pass it unsuccessfully. Keep up the fight or leave... That's my opinion.