Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[cgmason1]

whats the funniest of them all is; the jetblue e-190 pilots now make more or equal to what the ALPA boys do at USAIR. and the biggest laugh of all is we didnt pay 1.95%.

Wrong answer...even with the recent low raise-we do not make as much as the US Air 190 Captains currently make at 95 an hour and their proposed raise is to 125 an hour.

If you're still legally making roth IRA contributions, then you don't make enough money to rub anything in anyone's face regarding compensation.

I have to agree.

 

[HA25]

He's working, are you?

What so working as a whore and pariah on the industry is somehow honorable? If it weren't for the likes of JB and the ills it spawned, we all wouldn't be taking such huge pay cuts everytime we turn around and negotiate a new contract. The effects on one or two large non-union carriers on the rest of us is far disproportionate to their numbers and size..

Remember, a rising tide lifts all.. and JB is not raising anything but the expectations for what pilots should do, among which cleaning the cabin has become one.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Let's see...you took World over Delta? Is that right? Your choice of course. I left a regional to move up. So I am a whore and pariah? Wow, I guess I should have stayed at the regional so I could plateau out on pay and bennies and be at a "Regional Carrier". Yep, you guessed my plan. I guess you picked World over Delta for the same reasons. You made your choice, so did I. I, along with everyone else in this industry would like to make 200K, A and B funds, and fly 9 days a month. Show me a passenger carrier who fits that bill and I would apply tomorrow along with everyone else. I hope you enjoy the flying that World has. It is not for everyone. I did it many years ago and really enjoyed it.
Good luck.

 

[HA25]

Let's see...you took World over Delta? Is that right? Your choice of course. I left a regional to move up. So I am a whore and pariah? Wow, I guess I should have stayed at the regional so I could plateau out on pay and bennies and be at a "Regional Carrier". Yep, you guessed my plan. I guess you picked World over Delta for the same reasons. You made your choice, so did I. I, along with everyone else in this industry would like to make 200K, A and B funds, and fly 9 days a month. Show me a passenger carrier who fits that bill and I would apply tomorrow along with everyone else. I hope you enjoy the flying that World has. It is not for everyone. I did it many years ago and really enjoyed it.
Good luck.

Get a Union, and pay what your pears are paying with the work rules your pears are working under (note, pears are WN, TED, HP, etc..).. and then, I'll back off, until then I see JB as a bane on the profession.. Not going as far as J/S wars, and blacklists that many I know advocate, but making the point that while the Legacies (I was hired by American in 2001) were faltering, the JB Koolaid drinkers were reveling in that... well, it's time to come to account for that.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Get a Union, and pay what your pears are paying with the work rules your pears are working under (note, pears are WN, TED, HP, etc..).. and then, I'll back off, until then I see JB as a bane on the profession.. Not going as far as J/S wars, and blacklists that many I know advocate, but making the point that while the Legacies (I was hired by American in 2001) were faltering, the JB Koolaid drinkers were reveling in that... well, it's time to come to account for that.

So a union is the cure-all?? Tell that to TWA, Pan AM, HP and all the other carriers, major and regional alike who were 'protected' by the 'union'. How is that pay CUT at Airways, DL, AMR, and all the rest. What is a "pears" exactly? I suppose you mean PEERS. Yeah, let's 'blacklist" and have j/s wars, helps everyone. I really don't care if 'you' think jb is a 'bane'. Airline management is who I call a ' bane' on the profession. I really am curious as to why you took World over Delta? Is World ALPA? Keep thinking JB is the 'bane'. So all of the furloughees from DL, NW, US, AA, UA that are here have contributed to the downfall of the legacies through JB??
Sigh.....

 

[HA25]

So a union is the cure-all?? Tell that to TWA, Pan AM, HP and all the other carriers, major and regional alike who were 'protected' by the 'union'. How is that pay CUT at Airways, DL, AMR, and all the rest. What is a "pears" exactly? I suppose you mean PEERS. Yeah, let's 'blacklist" and have j/s wars, helps everyone. I really don't care if 'you' think jb is a 'bane'. Airline management is who I call a ' bane' on the profession. I really am curious as to why you took World over Delta? Is World ALPA? Keep thinking JB is the 'bane'. So all of the furloughees from DL, NW, US, AA, UA that are here have contributed to the downfall of the legacies through JB??
Sigh.....

You have me confused with someone else.. I work for Gemini. They recently went thru BK and ALPA did all they could to protect the contract, but surviving the 9/11 downturn put many aircarriers into BK.. fuel costs being the primary reason. I never went or interviewed at DAL, however I did get hired at American just prior to 9/11... IF/when they recall and re-interview I doubt I'll go back as I'm loving the idea of Cargo for the rest of my career.

As to your point about unions, TWA, PanAm etc... what do the two have to do with each other? Those companies faltered in a bad economy, and their managements (especially in the case of PanAm) handled their operations poorly which lead to their failure.

The problem I have with a JB and other "upstarts" and LCCs (other than WN), is that it seems like their entire business model is predicated on making pilots do more for less... they've figured out that fuel costs aren't as easy to control as labor, and that if we can convince the public that pilots are over paid, then we can get just enough of those pilots out there that buy into this myth to apply and work for us. If you're "Blue" enough, you don't need a union, cause you're a "team player" wink, wing, nudge, nudge..

Well, sorry, I'm old fashioned.. give me a union, a contract and work rules.. and I'll work my ass off with in that contract.. not a bit more, and not a bit less.

 

[HA25]

btw... like you I flew ATR at ASA.. and I was there when that union (the most dysfunctional ALPA unit IMHO) tried to sue itself onto the DAL list.. so there are examples of when a union can be it's own worse enemy, but generally you're better of with one.. and I hope JB joins the ranks of ALPA.

 

[lowecur]

Get a Union, and pay what your pears are paying with the work rules your pears are working under (note, pears are WN, TED, HP, etc..).. and then, I'll back off, until then I see JB as a bane on the profession.. Not going as far as J/S wars, and blacklists that many I know advocate, but making the point that while the Legacies (I was hired by American in 2001) were faltering, the JB Koolaid drinkers were reveling in that... well, it's time to come to account for that.

Another misery luvs company zealot. Maybe Jimmy Hoffa will reappear to help you resurrect the Teamsters. You'll keep bouncing around like a ping pong ball in your career because YOU come before your CARRIER. YOU people just can't stand the fact that Jetblue has a management team that has a plan that goes against the grain of pilot labor history.

Will Jetblue get a union someday? Yeah, I think it's inevitable with the growth they have had. You can't hire as many pilots and expect not to get fooled on interview by imposters that passed themselves off as company first people. Do these people care that the company needs margins between 10-15% to remain longterm viable?....No! Do they care that most of the legacy's have undergone a transformation that has sharpened their competitive position where it will take Jetblue time to adjust?...No! The minute Jetblue's mgt said they have turned things around and expect $150-200M profit in 07, the 190 raise and nothing for the 320 group was considered a slap in the face. If Jetblue was private, none of this would have been an issue at this time because they could have just kept their guidance quiet.

Lot's of people think an airline is better off if privately held. I think Jetblue is headed in that direction this year. The only thing stopping it would be the continued lobbying effort by Neeleman to make this deal work as a public company. I disagree with him, and I hope he changes his mind.....as the pundits of past history are rearing their ugly heads.

ps: Gemini just came out of BK in the middle of 2006 and I believe they are privately held. Time will tell if they have made all the right moves, but if they haven't then your furlough will come without warning.

imp:​

 

[jbucpt]

Wrong answer...even with the recent low raise-we do not make as much as the US Air 190 Captains currently make at 95 an hour and their proposed raise is to 125 an hour.




I have to agree.

wrong answer... you can spin it anyway you want, however, a jb pilot who flies 80 a month makes $7998 (12 year captain). a usair captain would make $7600. the $125 is wishful thinking, and has to be negotiated. we all know how long that will take.

you can also spin the roth's anyway you want. but the fact of the matter is; not to many (if any) ALPA A-320 pilots (captain/first officers) are making over $150,000 (married filing jointly) at their present payrates. therefore, i hope their not counting on the legacy retirement plans.

 

[Dave's kid]

You have me confused with someone else.. I work for Gemini. They recently went thru BK and ALPA did all they could to protect the contract, but surviving the 9/11 downturn put many aircarriers into BK.. fuel costs being the primary reason.

Guys help me out here, without a union, what did JetBlue have to give up after 9/11? Oh yeah, they got a pay raise.

 

[furloughed dude]

How many hours a month do you need to fly to make 150k at jetblue? What a joke....

 

[jbucpt]

How many hours a month do you need to fly to make 150k at jetblue? What a joke....

how many hours do you have to fly to make $150K flying the a-320 at your legacy ALPA carriers (be specific and dont forget to subtract the 1.95) ?? thats the real joke...

 

[HA25]

bottom line... Jet Blue (the company) is making money hand over fist; on the backs of whore pilots who think it's ok to make 1/2 what WN pays to do the same job.

Say what you want about legacy carriers, Gemini, etc.. You're bringing down the bar, the profession and you're all reveling in it. Just remember, what goes around, comes around.

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Tax deduction!

how many hours do you have to fly to make $150K flying the a-320 at your legacy ALPA carriers (be specific and dont forget to subtract the 1.95) ?? thats the real joke...

Don't forget the 1.95% is tax deductable. You'll get 20% back of all you paid to get the higher wages at the Legacy carriers.

At least ALPA will always get you something for the 1.98%. If you make over $100 grand, the over $2000.00 you spend on ALPA will get you just over $ 200 back on your taxes.

You could do much better putting the two grand in a Roth IRA.

 

[B6Driver]

Get a Union, and pay what your pears are paying with the work rules your pears are working under (note, pears are WN, TED, HP, etc..).. and then, I'll back off, until then I see JB as a bane on the profession.. Not going as far as J/S wars, and blacklists that many I know advocate, but making the point that while the Legacies (I was hired by American in 2001) were faltering, the JB Koolaid drinkers were reveling in that... well, it's time to come to account for that.

Thanks for all the laugh's little man.

 

[HA25]

Thanks for all the laugh's little man.

Anytime "Big Man".. now go back and clean the cabin!

 

[Fins Up]

Anytime "Big Man".. now go back and clean the cabin!

Go back to having your debts wiped out in BK court.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Guys help me out here, without a union, what did JetBlue have to give up after 9/11? Oh yeah, they got a pay raise.

Typical "sound bite analysis".

After 9/11, while other carriers were in - or quickly headed for - Chapter 11, NWA pilots got their largest pay raises in 35-years: 10.25%. That put NWA A320 captains at $212/hour.

If you were ignorant of that fact, then I understand the genesis of your smug attitude regarding unions.

Know this: The sun don't shine on the same dog all the time. JetBlue will experience a time when things are OVC 2 for the pilot group there. All pilot groups go through it. Even pilot groups such as SWA, with a relatively "positive rate", have had their brush with WTFO. The 10-year deal they signed in '94, comes to mind.

The killer UAL and DAL contracts just prior to 9/11 had a lot of folks crowing about the new Golden Age of the profession. (I'm sure you heaped appropriate praise on ALPA for negotiating those...right?) That period demonstrated what unions can do for our profession when the Possession Arrowis pointed your way. The carnage since 9/11 indicates there are things even previously successful unions can't overcome.

I recommend you choose small words to criticize other pilot groups...they'll be easier to chew when you have to eat them later.

 

[regionaltard]

Guys help me out here, without a union, what did JetBlue have to give up after 9/11?

Nothing. They had already surrendered it as a condition of their employment.

 

[HA25]

Go back to having your debts wiped out in BK court.

I'm usually not one to wish ill on others, but I can tell you that if you think you're going to retire after a long career with no ups and downs from Jet Blue, you're living in a world of denial. Time will tell.. I'm done with this tread.

 

[J32driver]

It might be ALPA, might be an independent... but either way... its a comin' !!! Flown with 4 dudes since the roadshows, 3 of the 4 brought up the subject and preached the Union Gospel.

 

[Fins Up]

I'm usually not one to wish ill on others, but I can tell you that if you think you're going to retire after a long career with no ups and downs from Jet Blue, you're living in a world of denial. Time will tell.. I'm done with this tread.

That was just a smack at you for the very very unoriginal "go clean the cabin" remark. As I said earlier, you've got to have some better material than that.

 

[Snoopy Mendoza]

you've got to have some better material than that.

5 and 9 in the past 14 appearances in the Grand Daddy.

Out!

 

[HA25]

That was just a smack at you for the very very unoriginal "go clean the cabin" remark. As I said earlier, you've got to have some better material than that.

the remark, while cliche is meant to represent the race to the bottom mentality of the LCC pride pilot who's Blue, thru and thru.. and the subsequent degradation of our profession which said pilot's mentality is leading to.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get your guys mindset, but the good news is that the majority of you seems to have your head screwed on straight and it looks like ALPA will be coming to town to try and raise the bar for you and the rest of us.

 

[scoreboard]

the remark, while cliche is meant to represent the race to the bottom mentality of the LCC pride pilot who's Blue, thru and thru.. and the subsequent degradation of our profession which said pilot's mentality is leading to.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get your guys mindset, but the good news is that the majority of you seems to have your head screwed on straight and it looks like ALPA will be coming to town to try and raise the bar for you and the rest of us.

OK "Mr snobbish Scottsdale Muni I have all the answers" man, lets set the record straight. The LCC's did not put the industry in the crapper. Your legacy airline management did by not charging enough for the tickets they sold. Additionally, they were the ones flooding the market with unsold capacity, not the LCC's. The degradation and race to the bottom you speak of is only occurring in the legacies, not the LCC's, hence, your ALPA wonderkind are the ones who are racing to the bottom, not the other way around.

If ALPA really does come to JB, are you so nearsighted to think the same fate won't befall them?

So easy even a caveman could figure that out, or is Geico wrong?

 

[HA25]

this is where the GEICO caveman just rolls his eyes and shakes his head...

happy New Year!

Peace out!

 

[skykid]

Hey scoreboard, stand back and look at it from as an objective perspective as you can and you will see that the LCCs are willing participants in the race to the bottom.

Don't get POed when the virgin US guys or whoever is next to fly airbuses for peanuts thinks their getting over making say, 100K/year? How about 75K/year as an airbus Captain? Jetblue and the so called legacies are paying Captains what first officers should make. FIX IT!!!!!!

 

[Spectre]

Don't worry....the ALPA naysayers at JetBlue represent an ever increasing miniority of pilots...Well below 40%, and mostly include those who are sitting left seat A320, crediting 85 plus hours a month. The rest of the pilots WILL carry the majority vote and control the direction of future improvements! It seems like a slam dunk from my perspective

Strangely enough, the "40% sitting in the left seat A320" are the ones who would benefit most from ALPA not the lower seniority pilots at JB.

Obviously you've never been an ALPA member before...Your improvements in pay and benefits will come from profitable operations, not from belonging to ALPA. JB is headed in the right direction in terms of lowering costs and improving revenues for 2007. 2007 will see profits returning and with that, profit sharing. There is the raise you are asking for without the help of ALPA. Furthermore, any stock options you own will increase accordingly. It's pretty hard to justify a raise in 2006 when your company is not making money.

Since you have to give 1.95% of your salary to union dues, you have to ask for your raise plus 1.95%. How about keep ALPA off the property and keep that 1.95% in your pocket? See, you're already better off. Many JB pilots whether Capts or FOs were former ALPA members. Believe me, that alone will make sure any vote is not a "slam dunk."

If ALPA is voted on the property, you think things will get better for FOs or in your case "less senior pilots?" The fact is things will get better for A320 Captains as in the real world, the senior guys at ALPA make out. They keep the jobs during furloughs, keep the higher frozen pension rates, keep their Captain position through mergers, etc. It's all about seniority and you're already at a disadvantage with ALPA or no ALPA on the property.

However, without a union, there have been no furloughs here at JB in the same time period when legacies were furloughing thousands. Furthermore, there was a 30% pay raise in October 2001 and NO paycuts since then.

Job security is as important now as pay. In bad times, most pilots here would favor lowering our monthly block hours to make sure all pilots stay on the property. With ALPA, furloughs would begin in reverse seniority order as per the ALPA manual. I'll never forget a NWA pilot tell me, "Well son, you're not the first pilot ever to get furloughed here. Things will be OK. CYA later!"

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Spectre]

Wrong answer...even with the recent low raise-we do not make as much as the US Air 190 Captains currently make at 95 an hour and their proposed raise is to 125 an hour.

Scuze me, but a 3rd year Captain on the E190 at LCC makes about $82/hours. The $95/hour rate you quote is for a 10 year Captain at LCC on the E190. By ten years at JB, you'd be a pretty senior A320 Captain.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways.html

How long does it take to upgrade to Captain on the E190 at LCC? Less than 2 years like JetBlue? How old is the average pilot at LCC upgrading to Captain on the E190 and how long has he/she been working for LCC?

It's pretty funny to see guys upgrading to E190 Captains at JB who've been on the property 1-2 years complain about their low pay. What would these guys be making as an FO on anything at a legacy with 1-2 years seniority? Mid $30's is all you'll get as an FO at CAL your first year and no medical your first 6 months.

 

[Patriot328]

What would these guys be making as an FO on anything at a legacy with 1-2 years seniority? Mid $30's is all you'll get as an FO at CAL your first year and no medical your first 6 months.

What about year 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.... ?