jetBlue, I'm ready for a union

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

I agree that even Railway Labor Act contracts can be rendered worthless in Ch11. And will concede that you do, in fact, have an "agreement" with management. But to claim that you have an "iron clad no furlough clause", is simply ridiculous.

I am on neither side here, just felt the need to call you out on your claim.

 

[thruthemurk]

canyonblue posted this on the major interview thread last week. I think it would be of interest to those that feel a union is the answer to all problems.


The following is from this week's Plane Business Banter by Holly Hegeman.

Many of you are familiar with Vaughn Cordle. Cordle is not only a 777 Captain with United Airlines, he is also a CFA, and since last year has done financial analysis work as AirlineForecasts, LLC.

Interesting choice of people to admire. I'm sure you knew when you posted this tripe that Vaughn Cordle has his own bone to pick with unions. He made his entry into the airline business by scabbing at UAL in 1985, then joined in not one but two lawsuits to try and illegally take seniority from pilots hired before him who were on strike. Thankfully, both lawsuits were defeated. Now Vaughn sits in his lofty stolen role as a 777 captain and holds forth about what ails the industry.
He has made millions of dollars as a result of staying in his ALPA protected scab position for 20 years, but doesn't have the honor to acknowledge it or to follow his union bashing credo to a non-union carrier. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but his hypocrisy rings particularly hollow.
May he rot in hell.

 

[iflynights]

Since my days at Jetblue are limited now (I have found greener pastures, just waiting on my class date), I think this place needs a union.

After the contract debacle, management has spent hours talking to us about their rationale of subpar wages, and have vowed to listen to us. After all of this "listenting", there have been no changes. They have agreed to keep listening..gee thanks!

This place will get a union in a few years, IMO. When guys start working on the sub-regional pay EMB, they will start a movement towards unionization. With 16 jets a year coming soon, these B scalers will soon become a large percentage of the pilot force. There are many people in the A-320 that aren't happy there and would gladly vote for representation. My guess is that it will be an in-house union that will work well with management. I hope so...

I am only about 40 numbers from captain, but after management pulled this contract BS, I realized that we can bitch all we want, but in the end, we have no ability to change things. Like some say, if you don't like it here, leave... It isn't cheap to train pilots and I'll bet many of our guys have apps out as well. Maybe they really will listen when enough people vote with their feet.

I don't think anyone expected to be paid like Southwest, but certainly better than the EMB rates.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I think it is rather unique that we're to only airline of our size not to have a union-- that is a testament of the majoritiy of employees, who love to work here. All the heated discussion for JBLU to have a union is being driven from folks outside (and a few bitter apples within) who'd like to see our costs for labor rise, weaken a 4.5 year old airline and send it into the same pile of failed start-ups. We are an INFANT in the industry. I get sick when you "guys" all rant and rave about what this airline owes you-- as if we've been around for decades. We are still extremely vulnerable to market pressures (AirTran 737s going trans-con, Virgin USA, SWA expansion, Spirit airbuses, Independence Air, Song, Ted, weather). We should all be so fortunate in receiving consistent paychecks when thousands of our friends look for ways to make their mortgage payments and put food on the table. Shame on YOU!!!

 

[jaxgus]

Well Said

I think it is rather unique that we're to only airline of our size not to have a union-- that is a testament of the majoritiy of employees, who love to work here. All the heated discussion for JBLU to have a union is being driven from folks outside (and a few bitter apples within) who'd like to see our costs for labor rise, weaken a 4.5 year old airline and send it into the same pile of failed start-ups. We are an INFANT in the industry. I get sick when you "guys" all rant and rave about what this airline owes you-- as if we've been around for decades. We are still extremely vulnerable to market pressures (AirTran 737s going trans-con, Virgin USA, SWA expansion, Spirit airbuses, Independence Air, Song, Ted, weather). We should all be so fortunate in receiving consistent paychecks when thousands of our friends look for ways to make their mortgage payments and put food on the table. Shame on YOU!!!

Well put!!!!!!!! If people don't like what our company is about then they can leave if they are here, delete their application or they can find work elsewhere. I think people just want to stir up controversy trying to weaken a place must of us enjoy working at.

 

[jaxgus]

Need to do a Little Research

Since my days at Jetblue are limited now (I have found greener pastures, just waiting on my class date), I think this place needs a union.

After the contract debacle, management has spent hours talking to us about their rationale of subpar wages, and have vowed to listen to us. After all of this "listenting", there have been no changes. They have agreed to keep listening..gee thanks!

This place will get a union in a few years, IMO. When guys start working on the sub-regional pay EMB, they will start a movement towards unionization. With 16 jets a year coming soon, these B scalers will soon become a large percentage of the pilot force. There are many people in the A-320 that aren't happy there and would gladly vote for representation. My guess is that it will be an in-house union that will work well with management. I hope so...

I am only about 40 numbers from captain, but after management pulled this contract BS, I realized that we can bitch all we want, but in the end, we have no ability to change things. Like some say, if you don't like it here, leave... It isn't cheap to train pilots and I'll bet many of our guys have apps out as well. Maybe they really will listen when enough people vote with their feet.

I don't think anyone expected to be paid like Southwest, but certainly better than the EMB rates.

Before you print stuff like this (in bold above) take a look at the first year pay rates for FO's at regionals flying the CRJ-700/900. The best paid on average is 22/hour while B6 is offering 37.10 on paper and realistically 40/hour after including premium pay. Of course, we could raise this hourly rate by including profit sharing, but I consider this a retirement contribution and I feel they should not be included in the comparison. This board has covered this topic in depth, but $22/hour is not 70% of $40/hour if we are basing the economics on the number of seats the aircraft has. Don't spin the facts, we get enough of this from the press these days as the Presidential Election occurs.

I am happy you found greener pastures, but don't forget the addage the "grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence." Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself. Enjoy flying side saddle!

 

[dane]

Bayou and jaxgus,


I see what you are saying. However, a union does more than simply 'drive up cost'. It represents employees in a lot of different venues, some more interesting to be in than others.

And, if you get a union simply elect people who will not insist on higher pay if the company can't deliver. That way it could even be said that the union worked for the good of the company. Which, some would say, would also be the good of the employees.

Oh, I don't think that high pilot pay has ever shut down a company. Total pilot cost for any given company runs somewhere between 10 and 25 % of expenses, at least in europe. At my company, a scandinavian legacy carrier, we came out at about 12 %. Some of the low cost carriers are closer to 20 %. Yet they seem to be the only companies making money. Hm Hm... There is abit more to this equation than just pilots. Which makes me think that I would prefer to have somebody working for me. Somebody who can represent me in an intelligent manner.

Best regards,

dane

 

[iflynights]

jax,

First of all, as Al told us, this EMB-190 isn't a regional jet. It is a 100 pax airplane with 2000 NM range. Compare to a DC-9 (most of NWA's -9s are 100 seaters with much less range) or the 717 (granted the 717 is a little larger, but Airtran's 717 pay is much, much higher than the EMB-190). At 72 an hour or soas a captain, that is a total embarrassment.

Alot of people openly complained that the rates were terrible. Management held tons of pocket sessions and listened to us. But Dave Bushy sent us an email which basically said nothing changed. Thanks for listening though!

I sent out apps immediately afterward and was lucky enough to get an interview. I haven't attended class yet, but hopefully it will be around the beginning of next year. I would probably make Captain in the March or April bid, but I realized that we, as pilots at Jetblue, are powerless to negotiate our pay and working conditions. And if you try to organize, you are worried that you will be fired you after 5 years. Why else have a five year agreement?

I had trust in management until this event. Now I don't, it is that simple.

You said:
"Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself."

This is a typical comment from the Kool aid drinkers. While most people don't voice their opinions to the hard cores like yourself, their are tons of guys, just like me, that want organization. Soon you will be the minority and will pay your union dues like a good boy.

I have never been a strong union supporter. But as people on this forum tell us time and again, it is only a matter of time this love affair with management will last. For many of us, it has past. Instead of these worthless values committees, have a real say. I don't think anyone in this company wants to bankrupt Jetblue, but a one sided 5 year agreement sure isn't the answer. And those 190 pay rates in particular are absolute garbage.

Also, it isn't a matter of not having the courage to change things at Jetblue, it is trying to convince some blind individual like yourself to change. It isn't management's fault for trying to pay you poorly or reduce your health care benefits, it is our (soon your) fault for taking it.

What will they shove down your throats next? What will you be able to do about it? That is the reason to organize. Good luck....

 

[Race Pilot]

I really like working at JetBlue, especially after upgrading to Captain in one year and eight months. I know that it was a bit longer than the guys and gals that were hired a year or two before me, but I think that's the way it works in this industry. Do I make current DAL wages, no. But they won't either soon. I have several friends at DAL and wish they could have kept the pay scales they had but it just can't happen these days.

I get a decent wage for what I consider easy work, of course that's after 20 years in the USAF so most anything would be easier. I do believe that we need to make more money, all of us, so that we can get all the toys we so richly deserve. But as long as even one airline lets consumers get away with paying fares that are the same as what they were paying nearly twenty years ago, its just not going to happen. What we need to do is get fares up and then we can take a bigger cut.

As far as medical costs go, they are going up everywhere. Now that's where I am glad that I stuck it out in the AF. My benefits are better there and a good bit cheaper than the JB plan so that's what I use. The thing that does beef me a little bit is that I save JB serious $$$ by not using their insurance (remember they pay 75% of the cost) but I get nothing back. At some airlines you get a little kickback if you don't use the company insurance. I believe at ATA it's about $400/year. Ooops, chapter 11 at hand so I guess that shoots my plan down. I noted the above situation on my survey last year but didn't see any talk of it so maybe I was the only retired military guy that said "Hey give me a little of your savings back" but I'm not sure.

The EMB-190 rates are too low, we all know that. But it does give an individual an opportunity to get in the company, ugrade very quickly, then hit the left seat of the bus after a few years. Not too bad of a deal in today's environment. And as it takes longer to upgrade the pay rates for year 2-3 FOs will get better I think. And as the industry completes it's full swing, all pay rates will rise because fares will go up.

Okay, shutting down my crystal ball for now and taking another sip of Kool-Aid.

 

[zonker]

I am happy you found greener pastures, but don't forget the addage the "grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence." Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself. Enjoy flying side saddle!

Oh Puleeze.

First you tell them to find other work if they don't like it. Then when they do that, you tell them to keep quiet.

Lame.

He's got a right to his opinion.