jetBlue, I'm ready for a union

[SMMustang]

The effects from the BLUE coolaid are wearing off!!!

It sounds like it is. It is funny to watch the "senior" guy try to reign in the "junior" guy.

Is the honeymoon over?

Is it time for me to sell my JB stock?

 

[Dizel8]

I am not sure any "reigning" is being done. Just skimmed over this topic, although it appears from one J/S post, that he himself said he got a bit carried away. These things happens, have done it myself a time or three.

As far as the honeymoon and your stock, you should sell if you cannot sleep at night.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

and then I'd remind him B6 has an iron clad no furlough clause in our contracts. I bet he stays!!

Someone should remind you that you dont have a contract. That is what Jumpseat knows and feels the need to remedy.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

The slapping of the FA.....Is that in or out of your hotel room?

I think you have "slapping" confused with "spanking."

 

[potrack]

so anyways...................is JB gonna get a union?

 

[LearLove]

.
.
.
You guys crack me up. . . . it sure must be a heavy stack of paper with all of that "iron" in it!!
.
.
.

Yep,

As Chinola man say.... "Ship with too much "iron clad scope/no furlough" sink to bottom"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not to rub salt in anyones wounds, but I pay $0 (zero) for health, basic life, dental, and AD&D for myself and my entire family (including kids).

SWAPA is pretty good for us, you might think about an in-house union. It can't hurt.

BTW, SWA posted its 54 consecutive profit this past quarter. 199M. (Costs must stay low, but there are other ways of doing it than taking it out of employees pay checks)

Go in house... stay away from Teamsters.. AFL-CIO unions have an agrment not to take labor from one another...

For example, the Netjets guys. If they want to go ALPA they have to go in house first then ALPA.

I'm not saying ALPA is right for B6, just saying stay away from teamsters.... Go in house, then you'll have the option for ALPA if you feel you need big guns...

BTW there is no career airline that isn't organized...

 

[Skank]

Why do we need a union? We already have divisive crybaby complainers who can never be happy no matter what their circumstances are. Isn't that what a union is all about?

 

[climbhappy]

cuts in benefits= increased earnings and stock value

since yields on ticket sales are flat or are coming down, where else can mGT seek to prop up the stock price for the beneift of shareholders. i guess the only problem is most or all of you are shareholders

 

[dlredline]

. . I'm not saying ALPA is right for B6, just saying stay away from teamsters.... Go in house, then you'll have the option for ALPA if you feel you need big guns...

BTW there is no career airline that isn't organized...

Gosh, that's funny. Go ask the USAir guys, ALPA since the early '60's, how big those guns are now that they currently enjoy 1970's wages.. ALPA ain't what it used to be, trust me on that. Been there, got the T-shirt.

Red
(enjoying an unorganized "career")

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Why do we need a union? We already have divisive crybaby complainers who can never be happy no matter what their circumstances are. Isn't that what a union is all about?

No, that's what Flightinfo.com is all about.

 

[jaxgus]

Not What My Lawyer Says

Someone should remind you that you dont have a contract. That is what Jumpseat knows and feels the need to remedy.

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

 

[sleepy]

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

I have to disagree here. You will not get any fancy lawyers with ALPA. More likely, you will get lawyers that finnished near the bottom of their class.

 

[AA717driver]

Read my history and see what unions have done to... er, I mean, for me.

SWAPA works because both the company and the pilots want it to work. If either side became too demanding, things would start going badly for everyone.

ALPA is busy working its way to being an all regional union.

I have always been a believer that you need a voice to relay the pilot's grievances to management before it gets out of hand. And, management needs to maintain an open and honest dialogue with that group.

Again, it comes back to the fact that greed on both sides will screw up a good deal.TC

 

[jaxgus]

Probably Right

I have to disagree here. You will not get any fancy lawyers with ALPA. More likely, you will get lawyers that finnished near the bottom of their class.

I bet they dress fancy though.

 

[flyfastinmy10]

Just my humble opinion and view from outside……but…………



Everyone outside of B6 wants a union and is unhappy about everything that affects the B6 pilots. Everyone has recommendations. Plenty of suggestions for a union and the type of union. Everyone wants to bad mouth this company.

I see a few B6 pilots complaining but if it were really that bad, they would have a union. Now the big question is why bring in a union? In this industry, what have unions done to help recently? There are currently very few airlines having any success. The business is changing and now if you don’t address the changing market, you will be out of business.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Look at B6. They have modeled their business in the likeness of SWA. Look at the history of SWA. At age 5 what is the comparison. The legacy carriers better make big changes now or they will be gone. The old airline business model is obsolete. I wish it weren’t so but it is. If you had the wherewithal to start an airline who would be your role model. United, Delta, US Airways or South West and jetBlue.

There are currently over 11,000 pilot applications on file at B6. The majority of applicants are from these legacy carriers. Some are furloughed and others have just had enough. There are currently many ex-legacy pilots at B6 and appear to be happy with management and tired of union letdowns.

My suggestion………….. If you’re at B6 drink the cool-aid. If you’re elsewhere talk to your union rep. Have him demand changes to make your company more profitable and a better place to work.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I have always been a believer that you need a voice to relay the pilot's grievances to management before it gets out of hand. And, management needs to maintain an open and honest dialogue with that group.

Again, it comes back to the fact that greed on both sides will screw up a good deal.TC

Are you kidding? That's too complicated for it to ever work.

 

[TonyC]

Alright already...you win.....that loss of license was the second or third post he made. You know what, why don't you and Jumpseater talk unions together. I'm tired, got an early trip tomorrow, and need my sleep so I can abuse the mechanics and slap an FA or two.

Bye

Fatigue is a good way to avoid scrutiny and to avoid taking responsibilty for your words, I suppose.

You told Jumpseater to go get more information before he vents on FlightInfo.com, and you made a disparaging remark about FA's and mechanics. Since then, you have added nothing of substance to the discussion, and no explanation (other than the bogus attempt) for your smear of "team members."

I really expected more. I expected an apology for insulting the FA's and mechanics, and I expected you to tell us why a union is not the answer to Jumpseater's concerns. After all, you're more senior, perhaps older, and certainly wiser than Jumpseater, otherwise you wouldn't have piped up with the "hush up" in the first place, right?

You might ought to have that knee looked at.





.

 

[Floatplane]

Take your union and stick it where the sun don't shine!!!

I usually do not post on these sites, but I guess the union vs. non-union discussion has struck a nerve with me. First of all B6 is a non-union airline. It was when anybody applied to the airline, and hopefully will continue to be well into the future. Unions and legacy carriers attitudes are fine for them. But, B6 is different and is striving to be different. So if your not employed at B6 and you are already at or on furlough from a Union airline, go ahead and stay there. But please stop insisting that everybody must conform to your notion of what an airline pilot should do. If a union is right for you then by all means go to a union carrier.

As long as we are discussing the union vs. non-union topic, lets try and keep it out of the jumpseat. I am sick and tired of some old Legacy pilot giving me his rant about how B6 needs to get a union. All I am trying to do is get to work or get home. I don't need some political lecture of what a wonderful thing it would be if B6 would just get a union. I know all of the ups and downs of what a union could mean for B6. But the last thing I need to listen to is some dude giving me a hard time while just trying to commute. If that is the professional atmosphere a union brings to the table, then I will pass on being associated with one for now. Thanks!!!

B6 has the most open jumpseat policy in the business. Multiple jumpseaters, flight attendant jumpseaters, and extra cabin jumpseats if the passenger seats are full. I have never seen anyone given a hard time while trying to jumpseat on B6. So please lets keep the jumpseat non-political and professional for those of us that commute to and from work.

Thanks, I feel better now.

Cheers!!

 

[pilotyip]

Repeat from another thread

canyonblue posted this on the major interview thread last week. I think it would be of interest to those that feel a union is the answer to all problems.


The following is from this week's Plane Business Banter by Holly Hegeman.

Many of you are familiar with Vaughn Cordle. Cordle is not only a 777 Captain with United Airlines, he is also a CFA, and since last year has done financial analysis work as AirlineForecasts, LLC.

This week Vaughn checked in with us, and I thought he had a couple of interesting comments to pass along, including the fact that Delta Air Lines has been paying some bills with credit cards. Hmmmm.

"Over the next several quarters, I would anticipate that several legacy airlines will be bringing down domestic capacity. The driver to this action will be the need to maintain a certain level of unrestricted cash. Profitable pruning is one of the few options available for most and many will be forced to stem the gushing red ink in the domestic market. Our recent work suggests that cash-flow for the big six and seven LCCs will be inadequate by $3 to $5 billion in 2005 based on $35 to $45 oil. Oil could remain in the low to mid $40s in 2005 and may run up to $60 in the near term. A $10 swing in oil impacts the big six and seven LCCs by $3.2 billion, and this includes the benefits of the various fuel hedge programs.

Unrestricted cash will reach bankruptcy levels for NWAC, AWA, ATA, DAL, FRNT, and CAL if oil stays above $45 over the next 12 months. AMR has enough cash to last until the 3d or 4th quarter of 2006, but will still need to bring costs down an additional $500 to $800 million per year if capacity does not come out of the system. Updated earnings estimates are for the group to lose $4.8 billion this year and between $1.8 and $2.8b next.

Delta is on track to lose $1.8b, which excludes nonoperating charges. Delta is on the edge of bankruptcy, even if they get $1b from the pilots. ATA, USAir, and United are on the endangered species list and are at risk in terms of a chapter seven liquidation.

Liquidation is less likely for other airlines because they have - in relative terms - better balance sheets, smaller pension liabilities, and better margins. In solvency and liquidity terms, USAir and UAL are dead last.

Delta and NWAC are next in line, and Delta may file bankruptcy after November 18th when a debt exchange offer ends.

I'm of the opinion that Southwest will exercise a "leap frog" option and buy some used 737s to accelerate growth. They are buying market share with their low fares and are not earning their cost of capital. By growing much faster than planned, they can lower labor and non-labor unit costs and preempt the lower-cost competitors like JetBlue. They are the big winner when big money-losing airlines pull down capacity and fares firm up after the shakeout.

I spent a day with the National Aerospace Credit Managers Association this week and the feedback was rather sobering in terms of their assessment of the airline industry. Delta has been paying some bills with credit cards and has asked the suppliers to reduce costs by 10%. Suppliers are not happy and from what we understand, terms are tightening for most of the airlines.

Labor is in the driver seat in terms of whether or not United and US Air survives. Without additional concessions - in the 15% to 20% range - United will be facing liquidation. This is a reality that the unions and employees have yet to catch up with. Perhaps a deal could be worked out where labor gets some of the cuts back if oil falls to below $35. It's a war of attrition and if two big airlines liquidate, the other airlines will recover because pricing power will allow them to raise fares - at least in the short and perhaps intermediate term. This is why other airlines will not liquidate, with the exception of perhaps ATA. Domestic yields are plunging, fuel costs are spiking, and the economy is not expanding as fast as originally anticipated.

The magnitude of the structural shift down in average fares and the real costs of the DB plans has caught everyone by surprise. It's much worse than most know and the other shoe to drop will be the request for large additional pay concessions at United and several other airlines. (Editor's Note: That has now already happened.) United's ALPA has been telling pilots that exit financing is available...and it's a matter of whether or not United wanted their terms. This is wishful thinking and does not reflect reality. As usual, pilots and the unions are the last to know and tend to lack a balanced understanding of the situation. It appears that management and the unions are just now catching up with the real - as opposed to the rosy scenario ATSB loan application reality - reality of United's situation.

Most believe that we need to lose a carrier or two for the industry to regain health. United is one that is in serious trouble and the employees will face a choice between liquidation and lower costs. How the unions behave and what they say publicly will impact the company's risk profile and cost of exit financing. The open-ended question is whether or not current management can persuade the unions to accept the new reality, which is a function of today's and tomorrow's revenue environment.

The next question is whether or not current management can survive. Most would argue that shopping for a CEO that tells the unions what they want to hear is a bad idea. United is at the mercy of the capital markets and the next representative of shareholder capital will not be as labor-friendly as Mr. Tilton. We are in the final stages of a major industry shakeout. It will be quite traumatic for the employees who lose their jobs and for those that have to take sizable pay and benefit cuts. Those that survive will have to adapt to a more modest lifestyle if they are to continue to work in the airline industry."
__________________

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

I agree that even Railway Labor Act contracts can be rendered worthless in Ch11. And will concede that you do, in fact, have an "agreement" with management. But to claim that you have an "iron clad no furlough clause", is simply ridiculous.

I am on neither side here, just felt the need to call you out on your claim.

 

[thruthemurk]

canyonblue posted this on the major interview thread last week. I think it would be of interest to those that feel a union is the answer to all problems.


The following is from this week's Plane Business Banter by Holly Hegeman.

Many of you are familiar with Vaughn Cordle. Cordle is not only a 777 Captain with United Airlines, he is also a CFA, and since last year has done financial analysis work as AirlineForecasts, LLC.

Interesting choice of people to admire. I'm sure you knew when you posted this tripe that Vaughn Cordle has his own bone to pick with unions. He made his entry into the airline business by scabbing at UAL in 1985, then joined in not one but two lawsuits to try and illegally take seniority from pilots hired before him who were on strike. Thankfully, both lawsuits were defeated. Now Vaughn sits in his lofty stolen role as a 777 captain and holds forth about what ails the industry.
He has made millions of dollars as a result of staying in his ALPA protected scab position for 20 years, but doesn't have the honor to acknowledge it or to follow his union bashing credo to a non-union carrier. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but his hypocrisy rings particularly hollow.
May he rot in hell.

 

[iflynights]

Since my days at Jetblue are limited now (I have found greener pastures, just waiting on my class date), I think this place needs a union.

After the contract debacle, management has spent hours talking to us about their rationale of subpar wages, and have vowed to listen to us. After all of this "listenting", there have been no changes. They have agreed to keep listening..gee thanks!

This place will get a union in a few years, IMO. When guys start working on the sub-regional pay EMB, they will start a movement towards unionization. With 16 jets a year coming soon, these B scalers will soon become a large percentage of the pilot force. There are many people in the A-320 that aren't happy there and would gladly vote for representation. My guess is that it will be an in-house union that will work well with management. I hope so...

I am only about 40 numbers from captain, but after management pulled this contract BS, I realized that we can bitch all we want, but in the end, we have no ability to change things. Like some say, if you don't like it here, leave... It isn't cheap to train pilots and I'll bet many of our guys have apps out as well. Maybe they really will listen when enough people vote with their feet.

I don't think anyone expected to be paid like Southwest, but certainly better than the EMB rates.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I think it is rather unique that we're to only airline of our size not to have a union-- that is a testament of the majoritiy of employees, who love to work here. All the heated discussion for JBLU to have a union is being driven from folks outside (and a few bitter apples within) who'd like to see our costs for labor rise, weaken a 4.5 year old airline and send it into the same pile of failed start-ups. We are an INFANT in the industry. I get sick when you "guys" all rant and rave about what this airline owes you-- as if we've been around for decades. We are still extremely vulnerable to market pressures (AirTran 737s going trans-con, Virgin USA, SWA expansion, Spirit airbuses, Independence Air, Song, Ted, weather). We should all be so fortunate in receiving consistent paychecks when thousands of our friends look for ways to make their mortgage payments and put food on the table. Shame on YOU!!!

 

[jaxgus]

Well Said

I think it is rather unique that we're to only airline of our size not to have a union-- that is a testament of the majoritiy of employees, who love to work here. All the heated discussion for JBLU to have a union is being driven from folks outside (and a few bitter apples within) who'd like to see our costs for labor rise, weaken a 4.5 year old airline and send it into the same pile of failed start-ups. We are an INFANT in the industry. I get sick when you "guys" all rant and rave about what this airline owes you-- as if we've been around for decades. We are still extremely vulnerable to market pressures (AirTran 737s going trans-con, Virgin USA, SWA expansion, Spirit airbuses, Independence Air, Song, Ted, weather). We should all be so fortunate in receiving consistent paychecks when thousands of our friends look for ways to make their mortgage payments and put food on the table. Shame on YOU!!!

Well put!!!!!!!! If people don't like what our company is about then they can leave if they are here, delete their application or they can find work elsewhere. I think people just want to stir up controversy trying to weaken a place must of us enjoy working at.

 

[jaxgus]

Need to do a Little Research

Since my days at Jetblue are limited now (I have found greener pastures, just waiting on my class date), I think this place needs a union.

After the contract debacle, management has spent hours talking to us about their rationale of subpar wages, and have vowed to listen to us. After all of this "listenting", there have been no changes. They have agreed to keep listening..gee thanks!

This place will get a union in a few years, IMO. When guys start working on the sub-regional pay EMB, they will start a movement towards unionization. With 16 jets a year coming soon, these B scalers will soon become a large percentage of the pilot force. There are many people in the A-320 that aren't happy there and would gladly vote for representation. My guess is that it will be an in-house union that will work well with management. I hope so...

I am only about 40 numbers from captain, but after management pulled this contract BS, I realized that we can bitch all we want, but in the end, we have no ability to change things. Like some say, if you don't like it here, leave... It isn't cheap to train pilots and I'll bet many of our guys have apps out as well. Maybe they really will listen when enough people vote with their feet.

I don't think anyone expected to be paid like Southwest, but certainly better than the EMB rates.

Before you print stuff like this (in bold above) take a look at the first year pay rates for FO's at regionals flying the CRJ-700/900. The best paid on average is 22/hour while B6 is offering 37.10 on paper and realistically 40/hour after including premium pay. Of course, we could raise this hourly rate by including profit sharing, but I consider this a retirement contribution and I feel they should not be included in the comparison. This board has covered this topic in depth, but $22/hour is not 70% of $40/hour if we are basing the economics on the number of seats the aircraft has. Don't spin the facts, we get enough of this from the press these days as the Presidential Election occurs.

I am happy you found greener pastures, but don't forget the addage the "grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence." Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself. Enjoy flying side saddle!

 

[dane]

Bayou and jaxgus,


I see what you are saying. However, a union does more than simply 'drive up cost'. It represents employees in a lot of different venues, some more interesting to be in than others.

And, if you get a union simply elect people who will not insist on higher pay if the company can't deliver. That way it could even be said that the union worked for the good of the company. Which, some would say, would also be the good of the employees.

Oh, I don't think that high pilot pay has ever shut down a company. Total pilot cost for any given company runs somewhere between 10 and 25 % of expenses, at least in europe. At my company, a scandinavian legacy carrier, we came out at about 12 %. Some of the low cost carriers are closer to 20 %. Yet they seem to be the only companies making money. Hm Hm... There is abit more to this equation than just pilots. Which makes me think that I would prefer to have somebody working for me. Somebody who can represent me in an intelligent manner.

Best regards,

dane

 

[iflynights]

jax,

First of all, as Al told us, this EMB-190 isn't a regional jet. It is a 100 pax airplane with 2000 NM range. Compare to a DC-9 (most of NWA's -9s are 100 seaters with much less range) or the 717 (granted the 717 is a little larger, but Airtran's 717 pay is much, much higher than the EMB-190). At 72 an hour or soas a captain, that is a total embarrassment.

Alot of people openly complained that the rates were terrible. Management held tons of pocket sessions and listened to us. But Dave Bushy sent us an email which basically said nothing changed. Thanks for listening though!

I sent out apps immediately afterward and was lucky enough to get an interview. I haven't attended class yet, but hopefully it will be around the beginning of next year. I would probably make Captain in the March or April bid, but I realized that we, as pilots at Jetblue, are powerless to negotiate our pay and working conditions. And if you try to organize, you are worried that you will be fired you after 5 years. Why else have a five year agreement?

I had trust in management until this event. Now I don't, it is that simple.

You said:
"Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself."

This is a typical comment from the Kool aid drinkers. While most people don't voice their opinions to the hard cores like yourself, their are tons of guys, just like me, that want organization. Soon you will be the minority and will pay your union dues like a good boy.

I have never been a strong union supporter. But as people on this forum tell us time and again, it is only a matter of time this love affair with management will last. For many of us, it has past. Instead of these worthless values committees, have a real say. I don't think anyone in this company wants to bankrupt Jetblue, but a one sided 5 year agreement sure isn't the answer. And those 190 pay rates in particular are absolute garbage.

Also, it isn't a matter of not having the courage to change things at Jetblue, it is trying to convince some blind individual like yourself to change. It isn't management's fault for trying to pay you poorly or reduce your health care benefits, it is our (soon your) fault for taking it.

What will they shove down your throats next? What will you be able to do about it? That is the reason to organize. Good luck....

 

[Race Pilot]

I really like working at JetBlue, especially after upgrading to Captain in one year and eight months. I know that it was a bit longer than the guys and gals that were hired a year or two before me, but I think that's the way it works in this industry. Do I make current DAL wages, no. But they won't either soon. I have several friends at DAL and wish they could have kept the pay scales they had but it just can't happen these days.

I get a decent wage for what I consider easy work, of course that's after 20 years in the USAF so most anything would be easier. I do believe that we need to make more money, all of us, so that we can get all the toys we so richly deserve. But as long as even one airline lets consumers get away with paying fares that are the same as what they were paying nearly twenty years ago, its just not going to happen. What we need to do is get fares up and then we can take a bigger cut.

As far as medical costs go, they are going up everywhere. Now that's where I am glad that I stuck it out in the AF. My benefits are better there and a good bit cheaper than the JB plan so that's what I use. The thing that does beef me a little bit is that I save JB serious $$$ by not using their insurance (remember they pay 75% of the cost) but I get nothing back. At some airlines you get a little kickback if you don't use the company insurance. I believe at ATA it's about $400/year. Ooops, chapter 11 at hand so I guess that shoots my plan down. I noted the above situation on my survey last year but didn't see any talk of it so maybe I was the only retired military guy that said "Hey give me a little of your savings back" but I'm not sure.

The EMB-190 rates are too low, we all know that. But it does give an individual an opportunity to get in the company, ugrade very quickly, then hit the left seat of the bus after a few years. Not too bad of a deal in today's environment. And as it takes longer to upgrade the pay rates for year 2-3 FOs will get better I think. And as the industry completes it's full swing, all pay rates will rise because fares will go up.

Okay, shutting down my crystal ball for now and taking another sip of Kool-Aid.

 

[zonker]

I am happy you found greener pastures, but don't forget the addage the "grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence." Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself. Enjoy flying side saddle!

Oh Puleeze.

First you tell them to find other work if they don't like it. Then when they do that, you tell them to keep quiet.

Lame.

He's got a right to his opinion.