jetBlue, I'm ready for a union

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

I agree that even Railway Labor Act contracts can be rendered worthless in Ch11. And will concede that you do, in fact, have an "agreement" with management. But to claim that you have an "iron clad no furlough clause", is simply ridiculous.

I am on neither side here, just felt the need to call you out on your claim.

 

[thruthemurk]

canyonblue posted this on the major interview thread last week. I think it would be of interest to those that feel a union is the answer to all problems.


The following is from this week's Plane Business Banter by Holly Hegeman.

Many of you are familiar with Vaughn Cordle. Cordle is not only a 777 Captain with United Airlines, he is also a CFA, and since last year has done financial analysis work as AirlineForecasts, LLC.

Interesting choice of people to admire. I'm sure you knew when you posted this tripe that Vaughn Cordle has his own bone to pick with unions. He made his entry into the airline business by scabbing at UAL in 1985, then joined in not one but two lawsuits to try and illegally take seniority from pilots hired before him who were on strike. Thankfully, both lawsuits were defeated. Now Vaughn sits in his lofty stolen role as a 777 captain and holds forth about what ails the industry.
He has made millions of dollars as a result of staying in his ALPA protected scab position for 20 years, but doesn't have the honor to acknowledge it or to follow his union bashing credo to a non-union carrier. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but his hypocrisy rings particularly hollow.
May he rot in hell.

 

[iflynights]

Since my days at Jetblue are limited now (I have found greener pastures, just waiting on my class date), I think this place needs a union.

After the contract debacle, management has spent hours talking to us about their rationale of subpar wages, and have vowed to listen to us. After all of this "listenting", there have been no changes. They have agreed to keep listening..gee thanks!

This place will get a union in a few years, IMO. When guys start working on the sub-regional pay EMB, they will start a movement towards unionization. With 16 jets a year coming soon, these B scalers will soon become a large percentage of the pilot force. There are many people in the A-320 that aren't happy there and would gladly vote for representation. My guess is that it will be an in-house union that will work well with management. I hope so...

I am only about 40 numbers from captain, but after management pulled this contract BS, I realized that we can bitch all we want, but in the end, we have no ability to change things. Like some say, if you don't like it here, leave... It isn't cheap to train pilots and I'll bet many of our guys have apps out as well. Maybe they really will listen when enough people vote with their feet.

I don't think anyone expected to be paid like Southwest, but certainly better than the EMB rates.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I think it is rather unique that we're to only airline of our size not to have a union-- that is a testament of the majoritiy of employees, who love to work here. All the heated discussion for JBLU to have a union is being driven from folks outside (and a few bitter apples within) who'd like to see our costs for labor rise, weaken a 4.5 year old airline and send it into the same pile of failed start-ups. We are an INFANT in the industry. I get sick when you "guys" all rant and rave about what this airline owes you-- as if we've been around for decades. We are still extremely vulnerable to market pressures (AirTran 737s going trans-con, Virgin USA, SWA expansion, Spirit airbuses, Independence Air, Song, Ted, weather). We should all be so fortunate in receiving consistent paychecks when thousands of our friends look for ways to make their mortgage payments and put food on the table. Shame on YOU!!!

 

[jaxgus]

Well Said

I think it is rather unique that we're to only airline of our size not to have a union-- that is a testament of the majoritiy of employees, who love to work here. All the heated discussion for JBLU to have a union is being driven from folks outside (and a few bitter apples within) who'd like to see our costs for labor rise, weaken a 4.5 year old airline and send it into the same pile of failed start-ups. We are an INFANT in the industry. I get sick when you "guys" all rant and rave about what this airline owes you-- as if we've been around for decades. We are still extremely vulnerable to market pressures (AirTran 737s going trans-con, Virgin USA, SWA expansion, Spirit airbuses, Independence Air, Song, Ted, weather). We should all be so fortunate in receiving consistent paychecks when thousands of our friends look for ways to make their mortgage payments and put food on the table. Shame on YOU!!!

Well put!!!!!!!! If people don't like what our company is about then they can leave if they are here, delete their application or they can find work elsewhere. I think people just want to stir up controversy trying to weaken a place must of us enjoy working at.

 

[jaxgus]

Need to do a Little Research

Since my days at Jetblue are limited now (I have found greener pastures, just waiting on my class date), I think this place needs a union.

After the contract debacle, management has spent hours talking to us about their rationale of subpar wages, and have vowed to listen to us. After all of this "listenting", there have been no changes. They have agreed to keep listening..gee thanks!

This place will get a union in a few years, IMO. When guys start working on the sub-regional pay EMB, they will start a movement towards unionization. With 16 jets a year coming soon, these B scalers will soon become a large percentage of the pilot force. There are many people in the A-320 that aren't happy there and would gladly vote for representation. My guess is that it will be an in-house union that will work well with management. I hope so...

I am only about 40 numbers from captain, but after management pulled this contract BS, I realized that we can bitch all we want, but in the end, we have no ability to change things. Like some say, if you don't like it here, leave... It isn't cheap to train pilots and I'll bet many of our guys have apps out as well. Maybe they really will listen when enough people vote with their feet.

I don't think anyone expected to be paid like Southwest, but certainly better than the EMB rates.

Before you print stuff like this (in bold above) take a look at the first year pay rates for FO's at regionals flying the CRJ-700/900. The best paid on average is 22/hour while B6 is offering 37.10 on paper and realistically 40/hour after including premium pay. Of course, we could raise this hourly rate by including profit sharing, but I consider this a retirement contribution and I feel they should not be included in the comparison. This board has covered this topic in depth, but $22/hour is not 70% of $40/hour if we are basing the economics on the number of seats the aircraft has. Don't spin the facts, we get enough of this from the press these days as the Presidential Election occurs.

I am happy you found greener pastures, but don't forget the addage the "grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence." Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself. Enjoy flying side saddle!

 

[dane]

Bayou and jaxgus,


I see what you are saying. However, a union does more than simply 'drive up cost'. It represents employees in a lot of different venues, some more interesting to be in than others.

And, if you get a union simply elect people who will not insist on higher pay if the company can't deliver. That way it could even be said that the union worked for the good of the company. Which, some would say, would also be the good of the employees.

Oh, I don't think that high pilot pay has ever shut down a company. Total pilot cost for any given company runs somewhere between 10 and 25 % of expenses, at least in europe. At my company, a scandinavian legacy carrier, we came out at about 12 %. Some of the low cost carriers are closer to 20 %. Yet they seem to be the only companies making money. Hm Hm... There is abit more to this equation than just pilots. Which makes me think that I would prefer to have somebody working for me. Somebody who can represent me in an intelligent manner.

Best regards,

dane

 

[iflynights]

jax,

First of all, as Al told us, this EMB-190 isn't a regional jet. It is a 100 pax airplane with 2000 NM range. Compare to a DC-9 (most of NWA's -9s are 100 seaters with much less range) or the 717 (granted the 717 is a little larger, but Airtran's 717 pay is much, much higher than the EMB-190). At 72 an hour or soas a captain, that is a total embarrassment.

Alot of people openly complained that the rates were terrible. Management held tons of pocket sessions and listened to us. But Dave Bushy sent us an email which basically said nothing changed. Thanks for listening though!

I sent out apps immediately afterward and was lucky enough to get an interview. I haven't attended class yet, but hopefully it will be around the beginning of next year. I would probably make Captain in the March or April bid, but I realized that we, as pilots at Jetblue, are powerless to negotiate our pay and working conditions. And if you try to organize, you are worried that you will be fired you after 5 years. Why else have a five year agreement?

I had trust in management until this event. Now I don't, it is that simple.

You said:
"Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself."

This is a typical comment from the Kool aid drinkers. While most people don't voice their opinions to the hard cores like yourself, their are tons of guys, just like me, that want organization. Soon you will be the minority and will pay your union dues like a good boy.

I have never been a strong union supporter. But as people on this forum tell us time and again, it is only a matter of time this love affair with management will last. For many of us, it has past. Instead of these worthless values committees, have a real say. I don't think anyone in this company wants to bankrupt Jetblue, but a one sided 5 year agreement sure isn't the answer. And those 190 pay rates in particular are absolute garbage.

Also, it isn't a matter of not having the courage to change things at Jetblue, it is trying to convince some blind individual like yourself to change. It isn't management's fault for trying to pay you poorly or reduce your health care benefits, it is our (soon your) fault for taking it.

What will they shove down your throats next? What will you be able to do about it? That is the reason to organize. Good luck....

 

[Race Pilot]

I really like working at JetBlue, especially after upgrading to Captain in one year and eight months. I know that it was a bit longer than the guys and gals that were hired a year or two before me, but I think that's the way it works in this industry. Do I make current DAL wages, no. But they won't either soon. I have several friends at DAL and wish they could have kept the pay scales they had but it just can't happen these days.

I get a decent wage for what I consider easy work, of course that's after 20 years in the USAF so most anything would be easier. I do believe that we need to make more money, all of us, so that we can get all the toys we so richly deserve. But as long as even one airline lets consumers get away with paying fares that are the same as what they were paying nearly twenty years ago, its just not going to happen. What we need to do is get fares up and then we can take a bigger cut.

As far as medical costs go, they are going up everywhere. Now that's where I am glad that I stuck it out in the AF. My benefits are better there and a good bit cheaper than the JB plan so that's what I use. The thing that does beef me a little bit is that I save JB serious $$$ by not using their insurance (remember they pay 75% of the cost) but I get nothing back. At some airlines you get a little kickback if you don't use the company insurance. I believe at ATA it's about $400/year. Ooops, chapter 11 at hand so I guess that shoots my plan down. I noted the above situation on my survey last year but didn't see any talk of it so maybe I was the only retired military guy that said "Hey give me a little of your savings back" but I'm not sure.

The EMB-190 rates are too low, we all know that. But it does give an individual an opportunity to get in the company, ugrade very quickly, then hit the left seat of the bus after a few years. Not too bad of a deal in today's environment. And as it takes longer to upgrade the pay rates for year 2-3 FOs will get better I think. And as the industry completes it's full swing, all pay rates will rise because fares will go up.

Okay, shutting down my crystal ball for now and taking another sip of Kool-Aid.

 

[zonker]

I am happy you found greener pastures, but don't forget the addage the "grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence." Since you don't have the courage to try and make JetBlue a better place to work, I think you should keep your views to yourself. Enjoy flying side saddle!

Oh Puleeze.

First you tell them to find other work if they don't like it. Then when they do that, you tell them to keep quiet.

Lame.

He's got a right to his opinion.

 

[SpeedBird]

Right on Blue Bayou!

I have taken a self-imposed hiatus from commenting on jetBlue threads on this board primarily because of the incessant howling by OAL pilots about why jetBlue should have a union, but I need to make an exception in this case.

It appears that some pilots here at jetBlue think that having a union will solve all of their problems and make the flying world right again. I'm here to tell you that all that will happen is that you'll exchange one set of problems for another. The problems that unionized pilots are facing are far more serious than what is being debated on this thread (i.e., the increasing cost of health benefits & "sub-par" pay rates) and deals with significant pay cuts, long-term furloughs, loss of DB pension plans, and the loss of employment.

Well let me see......I think I'll take the problems at jetBlue today than bring a traditional union on the property and create an environment of entitlement that is motivated by "what's best for me," all while for putting my employer at increased risk on a financial and competitive basis. As Blue Bayou said so well this airline is not even five years old, one major mistake and this airline could find itself in grave jeopardy of long-term survival. "Listening" on management's part does mean that you get to have everything you want everytime. Management has already proven more than once that they will do the right thing by their employees when its appropriate to do so. For those of you who have children do you not do the same thing? The analogy is not much different here since it appears that some of you feel compelled to act like children when you don't get your way.

I'm afraid it is true that we pilots are our own worst enemy. For all you OAL pilots out there I recommend that you spend less time worrying about jetBlue's pilots and more time fixing your own houses. If at some time the management team at jetBlue pushes the majority of jetBlue pilots to want to organize then we will be more than able to handle it ourselves...God knows there are enough examples out there on how not to run a union in this business.

 

[a320drivr]

I understand that we are lucky to have some form of insurance when millions of people dont have any but I do have to say the new insurance plan blows!!! We have been told the company wont be built on the backs of labor but it sure seems like it is heading that way. I am tired of checking the insider trading sites and seeing all the big wigs cash in their stock for hundreds of thousands of dollars and sometimes millions worth but we cant have a COLA raise or keep our medical benefits the same. I understand that upper mgmt. has to be compensated but not on the backs of the working man. Maybe cuts should be made somewhere else instead of medical. A good example would be the benefit package that was just sent out. I dont need such a flashy packet in all the pretty colors. Just print it in black and white. Also Blue Print cant be all that cheap to publish and print. Just make it an online version and quit sending a hard copy out to every employee with all the fancy colors. Are the EMB pay rates low? Yes, but I can only hope mgmt. will fix that after they operate it for a year. Do we need an in house union? Maybe, maybe not. I dont have the answer. What I would like is some protection so the company cant fire me on a whim. Do you really think D3 is looking out for our interests? He was hired as a "yes" man, has his DAL retirement, and a chunk of stock options.
We all bust our butts to make this company a success and everybody wants it to succeed but some things need to change. Do I have apps out with SWA, Fed Ex, and UPS? Yes I do and it was the result of the new contract and where I see things headed like the medical plan etc.

 

[rajflyboy]

Jumpseater:


You have one of the most sought after jobs in the entire Airline Industry! Sit back relax and be happy you have the job that you do!

Enjoy every minute of it!!!!!

 

[iflynights]

Speedbird,

Wasn't it you telling us that you got hired by Jetblue then split for a 5 year military leave stint? If so, what do you know about a company that you hardly worked for?

 

[jetblue320]

Fatigue is a good way to avoid scrutiny and to avoid taking responsibilty for your words, I suppose.

You told Jumpseater to go get more information before he vents on FlightInfo.com, and you made a disparaging remark about FA's and mechanics. Since then, you have added nothing of substance to the discussion, and no explanation (other than the bogus attempt) for your smear of "team members."

I really expected more. I expected an apology for insulting the FA's and mechanics, and I expected you to tell us why a union is not the answer to Jumpseater's concerns. After all, you're more senior, perhaps older, and certainly wiser than Jumpseater, otherwise you wouldn't have piped up with the "hush up" in the first place, right?

You might ought to have that knee looked at.





.

I seem to remember you jumping in on a lot of threads that you have no stake in, but, it is a free country.

I don't need to, as you say, add anything of substance because quite frankly, I do not know who Jumpseater is or really give a hoot about him, especially from his introductory post. He outwardly appears to be a disgruntled airman because he stated that David made a statement of "not growing the company on the employees backs" and in his opinion, the new health benefits (among other stuff) doesn't meet his expectations, and David has more or less lied to him. ANd because of that, he wants a union formed. Is that the way you read it TonyC, before I continue on in this useless debate with you?

Well let me tell you something, not that I owe YOU anything (especially an apology) or Jumpseater either for that matter. I couldn't care less if he is happy with JB or not but what I did find odd is that he (along with a few others that frequent this forum) cries out "get a union" everytime something that they perceive to be unjust happens. The truth be known, only 250 out of 970 pilots at JB even attended (either in person or conference call-in) the numerous meetings management hosted with regards to the recent happenings with the contract/agreement etc. And most of those 250 were silent at these meetings BTW.

Well, I'll make it short....you want a union, go for it dudes...you know Duane's number, heck he has already contacted a number of JB guys. And when you manage to turn JB into one of those broken down carriers that you escaped or were furloughed from (furloughed being the operative word) maybe you'll be happy then. It don't make a F 'all to me, I'll be fishing and golfing.

C yaaa

 

[SMMustang]

 I'm afraid it is true that we pilots are our own worst enemy. For all you OAL pilots out there I recommend that you spend less time worrying about jetBlue's pilots and more time fixing your own houses.

As a NWA pilot, and a JB stockholder I have every right to worry about JB's pilots. So get your act together either with or without a union, but the infighting is childish.

Look, everyone in the business is taking it in the shorts, LCCs have no immunity. The problem is we are in the wrong business unless you are willing to work for near minimum wage.

With time and more pilots hired, the Koolaid gets dilluted. There is no other way around it.

 

[TonyC]

I seem to remember you jumping in on a lot of threads that you have no stake in, but, it is a free country.

I don't recall reading any FlightInfo prohibitions against commenting on any thread. As far as I can tell, as long as we keep them clean and professional, we can post on anything. If it bothers you for me to be on the same thread as you, that's not my problem. As far as "stake" goes, neither of us has any in FlightInfo.com, so I'd say that's not even a consideration.

I don't need to, as you say, add anything of substance because quite frankly, I do not know who Jumpseater is or really give a hoot about him, especially from his introductory post. He outwardly appears to be a disgruntled airman because he stated that David made a statement of "not growing the company on the employees backs" and in his opinion, the new health benefits (among other stuff) doesn't meet his expectations, and David has more or less lied to him. ANd because of that, he wants a union formed. Is that the way you read it TonyC, before I continue on in this useless debate with you?

If you think this is a debate with me, you're confused. All I'm doing is pointing out your hypocrisy. You did the same thing you chastised Jumpseater for doing (ranting without information) and you managed to discredit your fellow team members in the process. Then, in a feeble attempt to explain yourself, you lie.

What you could have done is offer a counter opinion, an explanation of why you feel the new health care arrangements are good for you and why you feel a union would not be beneficial to the pilot force. Instead, you took the low road.

Hypocritical, dishonest, disingenuous.

Typical.

 

[Dizel8]

Hmm, do I really want to do this?

Anyway, yes is is not desirable to see an increase in health care cost, however, as most know, this is a big problem for a lot of people and companies, that is except the insurance companies. Health care is on the rise and has been for a long time.For a while, one could not open a newspaper without seeing this discussed and it has not abated. The benefits that jetblue offers are quite inclusive and all things considered, I for one cannot say that they are overpriced or that the company is breaking my back, or my bank.

Further, I do not see this company as being built "on the back of the employees". A perfect example of that would be the current scenario at USAirways or UAL. However, with fuel at over $50 a barrel and the inability to pass that cost onto the customer, it is understandable, that the powers that be is turning every penny twice. One could argue, that doing anything else would be foolhardy at best and fiscally irresponsible at worst. Seeing that I still have 20+ years in this racket, hopefully at the same company, I for one am hoping that changes appropiate to the longevity, while keeping the employee interest at heart, is implemented. I have faith, that decisions like the cost of health care, are not taken easily and only after due consideration.

I would have preferred to see a higher rate on the EMB-190 scale. With due time, this may well happen and having seen the company in action over a bit of time, once again, I must put my trust in, that the company will do the right thing. Analyst have called this the "perfect storm" for the airline business and no one seems to be immune on the passenger side, even mighty SWA would have lost money had it not been for some very shrewd hedging . Hopefully, this boat wil eventually find a safe harbour and then the expectations change. If, at that point in time, the company was to turn in record profits, but not adjust compensation, be it salary or profit sharing accordingly, then certainly other avenues must be explored.

It has taken SWA a long time, with an unrivalled streak of profitable quarters to become amongst the top of the heap. One can only hope, that jetblue can attempt to follow in those footsteps and I know that I will do what little I can, to assist the company in that endeavour.

I am not so sure what I think of D3. While I do believe, he is implementing things that perhaps were overdue, I personally think, that he does not quite understand the jetblue values and is perhaps more in tune with the leadership principles of DAL. I must however, cautiously, give him the benefit of the doubt at this juncture.

As for iflynights, I sincerely hope, that your new position gives you great joy and much happiness. I think it is commendable for you, to be proactive and leave a company that you were not content with. Life is simply to short to be unhappy. I did the freight gig for quite a few years and enjoyed it, but for me, flying nights just got to be a hard life, although financially, it may just be the best move. Best of luck with it and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just got to the bottom of the thread....

Once again... there is no career airline that doesn' have a union... jB trying to be different? well, if jB was that different there would be no union talk... (as it was for the first 4 years)

as far as unions wrecking the industry and the legacy carriers.... perhaps there is some truth to that in a wierd way, but unions do not control management. Management must agree to the terms...that is why it is called an agreement!

Unions do not control terrorists, oil prices, incompentent management, taxes... In addition do not apply typical unionism to pilots. Pilot unions are unique as it is elite.... (compared to common unions)

It has been said that unions make airlines more efficient becuase they cause management to actually apply themselves... a check and balance. We all know we perform better with guidance and direction and other viewpointrs to consider.

Many management teams hate unions becuase they don't feel they should have to `check` with someone to run their own company.... and that really can piss off Presidents and CEOs. I know it does ours...

SWA has got it right. They recognize unions as a wroking group and not an advisary. David and Dave will do well if they flip flop Kerry style if and when a union comes on the property.. accept it once it is here...

And unions afford workers fundamental rights..... And this country was founded on fundamental rights...

 

[Diesel-9sRule]

SWA has got it right. They recognize unions as a wroking group and not an advisary. David and Dave will do well if they flip flop Kerry style if and when a union comes on the property.. accept it once it is here...

QUOTE]

Exceptional post!

Unions in airlines are like nuclear weapons. Once used, they F### everything up.

However...

the "robber barons" of the 80's are still out there. And, unions provide the political clout to ensure that the likes of the Lorenzo's don't come back to haunt us. (Even ALPA admits that they have never won a strike based on economics alone.)

These are lessons that we have seen repeatedly in the past. We would be foolish to believe that they will not come back.

The current B6 management team seems to have things right but we would be foolish to think that in 20 years our current team would be onboard.

I would like to see the pilot group bargin now from a position of strenght, than later in a position of weakness.

Just my 2.5 cents worth. (adjusted for inflation and oil costs.)