Jetblue 190 Question

[jetblue320]

Where do they find you guys?
The E-190 payscale is pathetic. Guys that get locked in to that 190 will be screwed. You can make more money flying an RJ. Next thing you know Nerlemann will be talking pay cuts because of the "ultra competetive environment" and you guys will be bending over like Mesa and you'll probably like it. That's the strange part. Nerleman is not much different than Lorenzo. He just gives you a bottle of wine afterwards. The difference is Lorenzo went to existing companies and got the employees to take pay cuts. Nerleman started JB from scratch so he can find dupes willing to work at bargain basement wages. Watch wait and see. JB A-320 growth will mysteriously slow up while 190's show up everywhere.

A while back you wanted an exemption from the 8 hour flying in 24 rule. What else will you do to damage this industry? JetBlue is poison. No way in hell I'd even think about putting in an app.

You're going to be thinking a lot differently about your company 10 years from now. Mark my words.

I don't need to mark your words. In 10 years, JB will be in my past and I will be enjoying life with my toe in the sand and a margarita in hand. If Jetblue is what you consider "poison" then great, don't apply. If it is not your cup of Joe, then so be it. What I want to know is if you are so negative about Jetblue and our CEO (and it's Neeleman BTW) why do you even waste your time posting about it? If you are going to take that "JB has screwed the industry" route, give it up Man. I have been in this business 27 years (which I would guess is longer than you) and it was screwed up in many ways long before February 2000.

And not that I owe you an explanation, but if I am being "duped" how come my W2 is north of 200k a year (and that's without Profit Sharing, 401k, ESPP, etc)

Try not to be so bitter, you'll live longer.

Have a good one.

 

[jetblue320]

I am not bashing B6

Neeleman is in his mid 40's. Let's say that he is approx 50 when his contract expires. If his curret 5% is worth approx $120 mil what do you think it will be worth in 5 years?

What I am saying is, if I was 50 years old with $150+ million. I would retire. What would you do?

Give me the reasons why you think that he will hang around? I know I wouldn't. Would you?

Again I am not bashing, just being realistic.

I'll try to answer this for you. I since have discovered, if the book Flying High is correct (and there were a few mistakes in it) he actually owns about 12%, but that's not the point. He told me directly a few months back during a conversation that he had some $90 million. If you add in the stock he has, I would guess that all totaled it would be, maybe $300 million if he went out. The dollar figure is not the point. He has said many times before that Jetblue is his passion, not his job. You said it yourself when you referenced Morris and Westjet and Open Skies and said he sold them all. Well, the fact is all three were joint ventures and not his all to his own. True, he was the mastermind and creator but I know this guy and he's not in it for the credit or the ownership. He is not a typical, money-hungry, anything for the dollar kinda guy. If you choose not to believe that, that's cool because it really doesn't affect you anyway, at least not directly. Trust me when I tell you that David will be around for quite some time. He's too figetity (sp) to do anything else. He is fueled by the everyday hustle bustle of this business. If I were to speculate, I would guess that he will fulfill the next 5 year agreement and probably one more 5 year term.

Personally, I am more worried about losing Dave Barger after his next 5 year term is up. He is the real General, Neeleman is just an Ambassador.

And to answer your other question, no, I would not hang around if I was him. Shoot, I plan on being retired by 2011 (and no I won't be 60) and my dollar figure goal is not even in the same league! But, that's me.

Thanks for your insight, really.

C yaaa

 

[jetblue320]

With a 150+ million and being 50 years old, I would start to have a series of wives that were taller, younger and blonder than the previous. That would insure having to raise more capital for my ventures! Gotta go. My short blonde wife just woke up!

Freddie,

I knew if you looked long enough you would find a Avatar picture to match your tagline. Nice going Ace! Oh, and keep up the good work!!

 

[wndshr]

sounds like someone got canned from phase 1!!!!

Where do they find you guys?
The E-190 payscale is pathetic. Guys that get locked in to that 190 will be screwed. You can make more money flying an RJ. Next thing you know Nerlemann will be talking pay cuts because of the "ultra competetive environment" and you guys will be bending over like Mesa and you'll probably like it. That's the strange part. Nerleman is not much different than Lorenzo. He just gives you a bottle of wine afterwards. The difference is Lorenzo went to existing companies and got the employees to take pay cuts. Nerleman started JB from scratch so he can find dupes willing to work at bargain basement wages. Watch wait and see. JB A-320 growth will mysteriously slow up while 190's show up everywhere.

A while back you wanted an exemption from the 8 hour flying in 24 rule. What else will you do to damage this industry? JetBlue is poison. No way in hell I'd even think about putting in an app.





You're going to be thinking a lot differently about your company 10 years from now. Mark my words.

sounds like someone pissed in your cheerios...hope it wasn't recruitment!

 

[jetblue320]

sounds like someone pissed in your cheerios...hope it wasn't recruitment!

I was thinking the same thing myself but I never kick someone when they are down, just when they are not looking. And what a shame too if it what you think is true. He would have been such a great guy to have at JB, I mean, with that warm and bubbly attitude.



C yaaaa

(Dog gone it, I can't get the cryin' smiley to work! Oh well)

 

[embdrvr]

Actually i've never applied at JetBlue mainly because my sights were set on majors with more domiciles and I don't want to move to the east coast. I've done my share of commuting and I don't intend to be a commuter again. Then 9/11 hit and that kind of messed up my plan to going to a specific major. Yep 27 years has my 15 or so years in the industry beat so WTF do I know.

The problem with you blue koolaid drinkers is that you operate in a void. It's like you're the only airline in the world. Back in the early stages of ALPA when piloting was a somewhat hazardous protection our predecessors fought long and hard for things like the 8 hour flying time restriction. Then you guys comes along and says, "hey you know what, we can make our schedule a bit better by seeking a variance to that rule." So F__k everyone else, let's see what we can get done.

Now you roll out the most pathetic payscale this side of Mesa. Now I don't blame the pilots at B6 because you're non-union AND you've signed your future away with that 5 year contract that was on your desk the first day of ground school. So Neeleman (I like referring him to by other names like Needleman or Nerleman) can do whatever he wants.

Do we hear a roar of collective outrage from B6 pilots about this E-190 scale? No of course not. Because they're selfish and they're already in the Airbus and won't have to worry about working for sub-RJ wages. I suppose if Neeleman wanted the new hires to PFT you'd probably go along with that also. So this upstart airline that is making tons of money introduces a B-scale. Nobody in the pilot group raises an eyebrow.

I just hope when Jetblue is sold in a few years (maybe more) that you get what you deserve for a new owner.

 

[Flying Freddie]

Take your Prosac. You will feel better in an hour or so. I need some more ice in my Blue Kool-Aid. Ta, Ta!

 

[jetblue320]

Actually i've never applied at JetBlue mainly because my sights were set on majors with more domiciles and I don't want to move to the east coast. I've done my share of commuting and I don't intend to be a commuter again. Then 9/11 hit and that kind of messed up my plan to going to a specific major. Yep 27 years has my 15 or so years in the industry beat so WTF do I know.

The problem with you blue koolaid drinkers is that you operate in a void. It's like you're the only airline in the world. Back in the early stages of ALPA when piloting was a somewhat hazardous protection our predecessors fought long and hard for things like the 8 hour flying time restriction. Then you schmucks comes along and says, "hey you know what, we can make our schedule a bit better by seeking a variance to that rule." So F__k everyone else, let's see what we can get done.

Now you roll out the most pathetic payscale this side of Mesa. Now I don't blame the pilots at B6 because you're non-union AND you've signed your future away with that 5 year contract that was on your desk the first day of ground school. So Neeleman (I like referring him to by other names like Needleman or Nerleman) can do whatever he wants.

Do we hear a roar of collective outrage from B6 pilots about this E-190 scale? No of course not. Because they're selfish and they're already in the Airbus and won't have to worry about working for sub-RJ wages. I suppose if Neeleman wanted the new hires to PFT you'd probably go along with that also. So this upstart airline that is making tons of money introduces a B-scale. Nobody in the pilot group raises an eyebrow.

I just hope when Jetblue is sold in a few years (maybe more) that you get what you deserve for a new owner.

First off, I never said that because I have been doing this 12 years more than you that you don't know WTF about anything. More importantly, calling us schmucks only makes you look immature and if you are attempting to rattle me by name calling, give up, I don't rattle that easy if at all. Secondly, I am not sure why you are upset about us trying to change the 8 hour rule. It hasn't happened. The EMB190 rates haven't happened yet. And as far as no one at JB being vocal about these rates, I guess you missed (or ignored) about half of the 300 some odd posts on that very subject just a week or so back. We are not at all happy about it but not for the same reason that you are I suppose. We are worried about JB and not how it effects the industry. Is that selfish, heck yea if you don't work for JB. It is parallel to how much say, ALPA or APA or pick one is doing for JB. Get a grip man.

I suppose you are bitter because your dreams are not being realized and of course, it's ALL JB's fault. Hey, I see from your profile that you were Army. Aviator type? Well, me too, years ago and I too had dreams of working for a "major". Well, that was in the era of "the big pilot shortage" which somehow never materalized, at least not for me anyway. The shortage was there, I just missed the boat. It sucked, and I was bitter for a long time. I flew for a few cargo and charter outfits and then for another cargo outfit for 12 years with their finger up my butt. Then the finger turned into a fist at the end and I ended up at JB. Certainly a breath of fresh air and for me, a savior. I don't expect you to understand or even care but what you could try to do is not blame your misfortune on us.

Let's just agree that we disagree and leave it at that. You live in your house and I'll live in mine. And if you feel that my property line invades yours, hire an attorney. Bashing us and calling us names on this board may make you feel good, but we aren't going away. Not in your or my career time anyway. Someone told me (it might have been you, I don't remember) that I needed a reality check. They are the one who needs to get a check!

I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for, really.

C yaaa

 

[turn&pull]

Sure sound rattled...

 

[Flying Freddie]

Not rattled. I hope you guys never have to come up the way jetblue320 and I did. I have been at 17 Part 121 airlines in 34 years. You just get tired of folks berating aviation and how we are bringing down the aviation world without a union. I have been Teamsters and ALPA many times. I have paid a lot of dues only to find out that I should have taken the dues and placed them on black 13. Gotta get back to my Blue Kool-Aid before the ice melts.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

I'll just say it...

It's about time. Nice to hear you finally admit it Blu aid drinkers, you couldn't get a real job anywhere else, and since this is the best deal you ever had, you're only shot to make it, you're going to screw the rest of the industry. You're like the pimply faced long sideburned Mesa twits and the PFT'ers, have you seen these guys in the airports? Morons! Go see a freakin tailor, get those pants hemmed or taken in or something. Where was I? So you'll hike up the skirt and show beaver for whatever will advance you, and screw the rest of us. It's pathetic. You guys were the losers/lifers that couldn't get a real job because you were unqualified ef-ups pre 9-11, but NOW, we're in the drivers seat. Hiring guys that wouldn't have looked sideways at us a few years ago. Then when the company comes up with these pay rates you just kinda' say, aw shoot man, this isn't so good, ummmmm yeah, but the enviroment is so competetive. Look what the LCC's have done to the pilot profession man! Wake Up! What will your grandkids say if they become a pilot and asked the question, what did my Grandpappy do to make the cockpit a safer and better paying place? Well geee, he paid for his training, so he could get a job with spew, then he said nothing while a coupla' ignorant management moles led the pilot group into trying to change the FARS so they could work more for less money, and then when management said they needed a new airplane type, to serve underserviced markets, or at least they will be underserviced when we put another legacy out of business, he rolled over and settled for the lowest payrate possible. Dude! you are an example of what the enron ethic has done to this country. Screw everyone but me, all morality is relative, there is no right or wrong. Wake UP! Yes I take the paycheck, but have you ever spoken up to try change things for the good of anyone but yourself? I have. And let's let it out, right here 320, what happens to the guys at blue who speak up?

(Edited by Eagleflip for vulgarity)
-FF

 

[Eagleflip]

Gee, FF, a little over the top tonight, aren't ya? Do you harbor some deep seated grudge against JB, or are you particularly snarky today for some reason?

OK, I'll bite. Here are a couple o' questions for you:

What PFT are you babbling about?

"Couldn't get a real job..." Hmmm. Do you have ANY idea of how many prior 121 guys we've hired? Former USAirways, United, Delta, etc? The legacy guys and gals here are top notch, so I wouldn't exactly brand them as losers. In fact, I'd call them "extraordinarily competent." As for the military and charter folks, again I'd venture to say that if the legacy carriers were hiring, all of them would stand a great chance of getting picked up.

Putting legacy carriers out of business? Again, I fail to see exactly how our 60 jets are the cause of the entire industry's duress. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Now, understand that I'm not happy about these EMB pay rates. Not at all. However, as I've said before, I will wait until our management hears the buzz and makes the appropriate decision before I decide on whether to make my appropriate stand or not.

It pained me to edit your post, as you will probably scream that another JetBlue guy has hosed you in the name of saving face. Not so, oh farming one. Just trying to maintain a certain sense of civility on the board.

 

[Flying Freddie]

Once again FlyingFarmer, the bile is clouding your brain causing severe reactions. I came after 9/11, from an ALPA carrier where I was for the past ten years. I was making over 200 grand a year. Now, you just can't believe how good JetBlue is because you are not here. Your attitude seems to indicate that you would be bitter anywhere. I hope you can work out your unhappiness because life is too short. Have a wonderful evening. Try a glass of Blue Kool-Aid and just chill out good buddy.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

how many prior 121 guys, If only you knew

Flip,

No no, I deserved the edit. Thanks. BUT! C'mon Flip, you know the deal with the top guys, many of us do. As far as furloughees that have been hired, my originial comment stands. Many of the Blue pilots wouldn't have looked twice if it weren't for our post 9-11 world. The PFT I'm babbling about, and babbling is probably a good word, has to do with an ethic. What the Blue-boys and all pilots have to ask themselves is, how low will I go, and at what point will I say, nah, I aint doin' it for that? Insofar as ME harboring any animosity to ALL blue pilots, well, that's patently absurd. Why some of my best friends are...well, you know how that goes, but here's the rub, some of the Blue pilots are unwilling to shall I say "speak up" - you yourself (as I've heard it) are waiting to "see how it all shakes out". So sit back blue pilots, raise the skirt and let it happen, yes sir, yes sir, three bags full, Look, you're an AF guy right? Ok, I'll type slow. LCC's come in, and cherry pick, suck up market share, drive down prices, margins , and profits for legacies. While ignoring smaller markets, the consumer will lose in the end. Let them eat cake Neeleman says of the consumer, he wins with low prices (for now), but will SW or Jblu fly into small markets? Heck no. They leave that to the Legacies, whoops no more legacies, or at least less of them, and many airports wind up without air service. Hey the government will say, let's start up something called essential air service. Is this sounding familiar? Can you say 1930's? I thought you could. Meanwhile the movers and shakers at Blue are looking the other way and saying, our shucks our 60 jets, nyuck nyuck nyuck, we didn't do anything, we just wanted a more productive day. Or a quicker upgrade, or more options or more profit sharing. You're just like all the rest Flip, keep lookin' the other way, and don't make any waves. Read what you deleted, does it look good on you too?

And to FF(reddie) me bitter, about Blue, now that is rich. If only Boy, if only.

 

[skirt]

It's about time. Nice to hear you finally admit it Blu aid drinkers, you couldn't get a real job anywhere else, and since this is the best deal you ever had, you're only shot to make it,-FF

Okay, so I'll bite (though I wonder why I should waste the words on you). I did have the "real" job you probably aspired to, and chose to leave for JetBlue. I have not regretted the decision. There are many here who were indeed hired at legacies of every color, most were furloughed, but some even came on thier own. This is not the land of "rejects" that you seem to think it is.


Skirt

 

[SpeedBird]

flyingfarmer:

Your inflammatory argument supposes that pilots both collectively and indivdually have a significant measure of control over the direction of their profession going forward and that if we all just pull on the rope from the same end that "our" problems will be solved, but sadly you couldn't be more wrong.

The market forces at work on this industry are bringing to light the glaring fact that we are just all figurative passengers on this journey through the biggest economic and financial change this industry has been through ever. However, if you want to blame somebody then start with yourself.

You and all other American consumers want the most they can get for the lowest price; and not just when it comes to buying airline tickets; it includes groceries, cars, houses, clothes, DVDs, computers, you name it, we all contribute our fair share in the same "race to the bottom" that you assign to this beloved and revered profession.

The problem for you is that you don't see the damage to other American workers who try to eek out a living which is generally far below your standard as an airline pilot. You have apparently forgotten, or have never realized that you are just as guilty everyone else when you decide to buy your made in China TV, or your Costa Rican fabricated shirt.

In case you have forgotten we live in a capitalist society and a free-market driven economy for the most part. The "criminals" in this case are not pilots but the all-mighty consumer who demands the same value for their dollar when flying on an airline as they do when they buy just about anything else. Airline consumers don't appreciate what pilots go through to reach the so-called top of this industry and frankly they don't care to hear about it either. When 90% of them make a 1/3 to 1/2 less than what the average airline pilot makes you'll never win their hearts over with your lamenting of the vagaries of being an airline pilot.

In the meantime as thousands of airline pilots are being dumped on the street and thousands of other newly minted ATPs, military retirees, and corporate refugees are trying to find greener pastures we find ourselves in the perfect storm that puts each one of us at odds with another as we look for the popular villiain to publicly skewer. The flavor of the month at this time happens to be LCC pilots with jetBlue leading the list. Like Eagleflip stated how can an airline with 60 airplanes be the harbinger of so much bad in virtually every corner of this industry?

The short answer is: It can't; and therefore it is only logical for more reasonable people to conclude that much bigger economic forces are at work; forces that none of us can control. You and others who subscribe to your views are your own worst enemies and jetBlue pilots, nor anyone else are going to fall on their professional swords so you can enjoy the last vestiges of an archaic regulated industry.

If this isn't what you signed up for then find the nearest exit and don't let the door hit you in the a$$ as you go. After you've been in the real world for a while then maybe you'll begin to appreciate how good you still have it despite all your woes. If you want to truly control your own destiny then stop being an employee who in the end only works for someone else that calls the shots concerning your economic future.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Ooohhhhhh Skirt

I've spoken with Captains that have flown with you, and trust me, you're a reject of the highest caliber. Yo!!

Speedbird, On many issues I couldn't agree with you more. On issues such as you bring up re' American manufacturing, your observations are dead on accurate. But the tensile strength of your true spinal core is put into question when you say things like market forces, perfect storm, we're helpless etc. By the way, in the movie the perfect storm, what was that neo fascist left wing liberal Clooney doing on that wave? Well, he was just doin what the massuh told him to do. He was uh catchn himma fish. Listen giantkiller snapperhead, just push button one because the controller told you to, look Colonel, you're not on active duty for your CEO, and you do have a say, we all do, the decisions you make affect us all. Needlemyer has made millions and Blue pilots get shat upon, and except for what 5 or 6 pilots all the pilot cadre does is look at the floor and shuffle their feet. Maybe Blue could recruit that sellout AMRON Darrah to start a union over here. So grow a sack academy boy, and while your at it, I suggest reading flying the line parts one and two, and confessions of a union buster. Behncke (do you even know who that is?) didn't improve things for all pilots with wingmen the likes of you.

And just so I head off the argument, yes I've served, and still do.

AND ps Skirt, I was only joking,


...........mostly.

 

[jetblue320]

Hey Flying Flamer,

My God son, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

I would tell you to have a nice day but I can see it's too late.

 

[SpeedBird]

Well flyingfarmer since you have all the answers to what ails me and my ilk please lay out your detailed plan that I am supposed to follow and which I'm obviously so ignorant of. While you may suspect that my spinal cord is in question at least it is still connected to a critical-thinking brain. Too bad the same can't be said for everyone else who wants to remind me of what my so-called obligations to the brotherhood are. BTW, I could care less if you "served" or not since it isn't germane to this issue. Finally, like I said before if you want to have true financial control of your future stop being an employee...especially one who thinks somebody owes you a king's ransom.

 

[jetblue320]

I've spoken with Captains that have flown with you, and trust me, you're a reject of the highest caliber. Yo!!

Speedbird, On many issues I couldn't agree with you more. On issues such as you bring up re' American manufacturing, your observations are dead on accurate. But the tensile strength of your true spinal core is put into question when you say things like market forces, perfect storm, we're helpless etc. By the way, in the movie the perfect storm, what was that neo fascist left wing liberal Clooney doing on that wave? Well, he was just doin what the massuh told him to do. He was uh catchn himma fish. Listen giantkiller snapperhead, just push button one because the controller told you to, look Colonel, you're not on active duty for your CEO, and you do have a say, we all do, the decisions you make affect us all. Needlemyer has made millions and Blue pilots get shat upon, and except for what 5 or 6 pilots all the pilot cadre does is look at the floor and shuffle their feet. Maybe Blue could recruit that sellout AMRON Darrah to start a union over here. So grow a sack academy boy, and while your at it, I suggest reading flying the line parts one and two, and confessions of a union buster. Behncke (do you even know who that is?) didn't improve things for all pilots with wingmen the likes of you.

And just so I head off the argument, yes I've served, and still do.

AND ps Skirt, I was only joking,


...........mostly.

Joke if you wish but I can tell you in Skirts defense (not that she needs defending) that she has accomplished more good things, in and out of the cockpit at JB in her short time here than you will in your entire career. And, from the content and quality of your post(s), it looks like she outranks you by at least 100 IQ points!