Jetblue 190 Question

[hopeful]

There will, mark my words, WILL be two seperate seniority lists. (This will allow JB to sell off the E190 and crews if they decide they want too)

Neeleman (SP?) is not stupid. (Nor can you teach an old dog new tricks.) David has made his money by building and selling things. Again, he is not stupid. He won't let go of the JB name anytime soon, but he will be spinning off and selling his own Commuter, I.E. Jet Blue Lite (e-190 commuter operation) He may even end up selling it to US Air after they liquidate most of what is now called US AIR. US Air will sell most of its assets and manuever itself into a position to start over. This time it will be with one type aircraft and it probably will be with JB's E190 serving Jet Blue routes.

As soon as the inherent problems with operating more than one Aircraft really begin affecting the bottom line, David will sell off the Aircraft and crews. Mark my words fellas.

 

[Mr Hat]

Actually the 170's ARE operated by USAir. It is U's callsign, U's mainline 121 certificate, U's pilots. They only call it by another name so they can have the pilots on another contract and pay them dirtbag wages.

So lets say in the distant future, say 10 years from now (assuming USAir pulls out of the hole they are in) a guy gets hired on the 170, he is a new hire and therefore not a furloughed USair guy, does he have a right to go fly any other equipment at USair? Lets flip it, say UsAir takes ALL their furloughees back then furloughs again, do those pilots automatically go to the top of the E170 list? If the answer to either one of those questions is no then the USAir pilots dropped the ball. Better to have "dirtbag" wages at the mainline AND the ability to bid the 170 in order to keep their jobs or just because they have a wife that makes more than they do and they want the quality of life than to create an independant company to fly the dirtbag jets.

I work for Continental Express. When I was hired in 1998, it was one big happy family. CAL owned Express, we had a flow through agreement that allowed for movement between the companies, Gordon was my CEO and we were even considered one employee group for representational purposes.
NOW- CAL sold Express, there is no Flow thru so CAL pilots lost their furlough protection and Express pilots lost their career enhancement. The CAL and Express pilots are divided and you will probably see a split in the CALALPA MEC and to top it all off the CEO of ExpressJet now wants to buy another airline and disclude us from flying at that airline too.

I'll say this one more time, ALL JET EQUIPMENT NEEDS TO BE FLOWN UNDER ONE SENIORITY LIST, ANYTHING LESS IS A SETUP FOR DISASTER. Whats happening at USAir is less than ONE LIST therefore the PILOTS will get screwed one day. Probably the same day they decide that they arent being paid enough to fly the 170, thats when they will lose all rights to USair mainline.

There will, mark my words, WILL be two seperate seniority lists. (This will allow JB to sell off the E190 and crews if they decide they want too)

Highly doubtful. The reason there is one list over there is because Neeleman didn't think that another airline could provide the level of service that his employees do, plus he would have little control over the crews flying those airplanes if he outsourced meaning if there was some kind of dispute between the regional and their managment, JetBlue would lose out. At least Dave could try to fix the problem if there were some kind of dispute.

Neeleman (SP?) is not stupid. (Nor can you teach an old dog new tricks.) David has made his money by building and selling things. Again, he is not stupid. He won't let go of the JB name anytime soon, but he will be spinning off and selling his own Commuter, I.E. Jet Blue Lite (e-190 commuter operation) He may even end up selling it to US Air after they liquidate most of what is now called US AIR. US Air will sell most of its assets and manuever itself into a position to start over. This time it will be with one type aircraft and it probably will be with JB's E190 serving Jet Blue routes.

So, Usair will soon be Jetblue's regional? Thats a bit of a stretch don't you think. I think Jetblue, Airtran, Southwest and ATA are going to merge into one carrier named Air Bluetrans West and destroy all the other airlines. My theory is about as likly as yours.

As soon as the inherent problems with operating more than one Aircraft really begin affecting the bottom line, David will sell off the Aircraft and crews. Mark my words fellas.

The Boyd company recently went over the "Myth" of one fleet type and their conclusion is that it is simply a myth. Done correctly, an airline could keep its costs as low as SWA with multiple fleet types. They even went as far as to say that SWA would likly realize this in the near future and add a new fleet type. All I know is that the Boyd Company is rarely wrong. So who knows. However I do tend to believe that the single fleet type theory is a little overrated.

Mr HAT, sorry for my lack of airline vocabulary. I am not an airline pilot, never have been, so some of the industry lingo I am still learning. Sorry for the incompetence.

No worries man, there are plenty of other silly terms to screw up. Bidding other equipment within a single company is simply bidding other equipment. A flowthrough is an agreement between a regional airline and a major airline where the pilots of the regional company can "flowthrough" (IE no interview or anything) to the major company. You are in effect getting a new job, at a new company without the hassle of interviewing or anything else. The converse is that the pilots of the major airline usually have a "flowback" meaning that if they get furloughed from THEIR company, they can have a job at the regional company....sometimes at the top or middle of the list of the regional so they may in effect be hired by the regional as a captain or a very senior first officer. The pilots of the regional would be displaced in order to make room for the furloughed major airline pilots.

Only two companies have had flowthrough agreements, Continental Express and American Eagle. The Continental Express flowthrough is expired and no longer in effect. The Eagle one is about to be torn down I believe.

Whats most important for you is to hurry up and get on with whoever has the fastest upgrade times on an aircraft that has a gross weight of 20,000lbs or higher.....preferably a jet.

Sorry for jumping on you, I didn't realize that you wern't in the industry yet. I get tired of seeing seasoned airline pilots calling Embraer Equipment "Regional Jets" especially when the E195 is larger than the smallest 737....it's like they cant get it through their thick skulls that by calling it a regional jet they are actually hurting themselves by bringing their current equipment CLOSER to a regional jet. They also cant understand that if a major airline fly's an Embraer airplane, its actually a VERY good thing and only helps to further the career rather than starting a "dirtbag" company to fly Embraers which only serves to fragment and divide us further therefore degrading the industry. You'll understand my frustration when you get here and see how shortsighted many of the major airline guys actually are.

 

[hopeful]

They also cant understand that if a major airline fly's an Embraer airplane, its actually a VERY good thing

Mr. Hat,

What Major airline do you fly the E145 for? Didn't your momma tell you, Don't talk about things you don't know about. Just makes you sound "stupider"

As a commuter fella, how can you talk about what is good or not good for us? I hate to bust your chops, but you are very opinionated about this subject and it seems to me that you don't really have a dog in the fight. Fly your 145 and keep the dream alive. Hopefully you will get hired by a major someday. You don't really want to make it to a major some day just to find out that you are going to fly an RJ do you? I can tell you that if my "major" airline buys up a bunch of junk RJ's I am going to be very disappointed.
.

 

[hopeful]

Ouch, I sat on my balls again. Man these things were great in college but have become a HUGE burden lately.

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

What’s most important for you is to hurry up and get on with whoever has the fastest upgrade times on an aircraft that has a gross weight of 20,000lbs or higher.....preferably a jet.


Thanks for the info MRHAT.

That is the question, what regional would that be? Mesa? I don’t know?

I do not see the harm in a Major Airline operating RJ’s. Times are changing and a company must be dynamic enough to offer a product that is marketable and profitable. That does not mean they have to pay "dirtbag" wages. Why not have a starting salary of 50K for pilots and just give a raise every year? I think we have to look outside the box here. I understand that CASM and revenue per vehicle differs, but would it not be better to get a fairly decent salary over your entire career, rather then have 10 years of real fruitful pay. From a personal investment standpoint you would be way ahead. I mentioned earlier that we should stop correlating success with size of equipment and focus on da money.

Mark

 

[jetblue320]

There will, mark my words, WILL be two seperate seniority lists. (This will allow JB to sell off the E190 and crews if they decide they want too)

Neeleman (SP?) is not stupid. (Nor can you teach an old dog new tricks.) David has made his money by building and selling things. Again, he is not stupid. He won't let go of the JB name anytime soon, but he will be spinning off and selling his own Commuter, I.E. Jet Blue Lite (e-190 commuter operation) He may even end up selling it to US Air after they liquidate most of what is now called US AIR. US Air will sell most of its assets and manuever itself into a position to start over. This time it will be with one type aircraft and it probably will be with JB's E190 serving Jet Blue routes.

As soon as the inherent problems with operating more than one Aircraft really begin affecting the bottom line, David will sell off the Aircraft and crews. Mark my words fellas.

Without going into length I will say this; the only thing you got right was the spelling of David's last name. I will assume that you have never met the man and from someone that has, you are way off with your theory. If you are seriously interested in making future predictions, I suggest reading Flying High, a new book out about David. It will give your a different perspective I think. And remember, David is only a 5% owner. We do have a Board of Directors by the way.

C yaaaa

 

[Mr Hat]

What Major airline do you fly the E145 for?

ExpressJet, Look it up, it IS a major airline. We are the only major flying the E145 at this time. However that is neither here nor there, what I was talking about is having multiple airlines flying the same route structure. For example Delta, ASA, Comair, Chitaqua (or however it's spelled) ACA and on.

Didn't your momma tell you, Don't talk about things you don't know about. Just makes you sound "stupider"

Thats funny, I almost said the same thing about your post.​

As a commuter fella, how can you talk about what is good or not good for us? I hate to bust your chops, but you are very opinionated about this subject and it seems to me that you don't really have a dog in the fight.

I can read furlough statistics and I can read union contracts. I have watched YOUR pay rates drop like flys, YOUR routes being shifted to other airlines, YOUR jobs being given away to other pilots and YOUR airplanes get closer and closer to RJ status in the last 5 years or so. So now that you've given your job away, taken pay cuts to keep what little you still have, gotten furloughed while foreign pilots are flying routes that YOU used to for YOUR airline I can only ask where YOUR big dog is? What happens when those crappy Embraer 170's/190s end up at some "regional" with some eager "kid" flying them for your airline? The Embraers may end up replacing YOUR 737's directly. And just because you major guys have bought the lie wholeheartedly, the Embraers and their pilots will be operated at a cost that you could never accept on your high and mighty 737 so you don't stand a chance in this new world of cost cutting. Is that a threat? Nope, but assuming you ARE actually a major airline pilot, you better watch your back because this stuff is getting closer to you every day. The more you allow your company to shift flying jobs away from your airline, the worse off you are.

Fly your 145 and keep the dream alive. Hopefully you will get hired by a major someday. You don't really want to make it to a major some day just to find out that you are going to fly an RJ do you? I can tell you that if my "major" airline buys up a bunch of junk RJ's I am going to be very disappointed.

All I have to say is that WHEN your airline buys up a bunch of RJ's (Because they will, these airlines follow eachother around like sheep) you better insist that they are flown by YOUR pilots on YOUR seniority list. Don't you worry about me. If I end up getting hired only to fly an E190, it would'nt be the worst thing that ever happened, I'd actually be quite happy because I would know that my job wouldn't be outsourced sometime in the distant future. Besides, I could end up in a DC9 which is far smaller than the E190.

 

[G4G5]

What did Neeleman do with Morris?
What did Neeleman do with WestJet?
What about the computer reservation system?
Has he EVER stood by anything that he has started?
His track record speaks for itself.

5% of JBLU's current market cap is still $120,000,000. 00
Not a bad profit for 5 years worth of work. Now I know that he just signed an extension, he's contracted all the way out to 2008 or 2009. That's another 5 years, my guess is that's when he says Adios. By year 10, B6 will no longer be a start up and will start to feel some of the pain that al the other airlines feel.

I read Nuts too talk about kool Aid

 

[Mr Hat]

That is the question, what regional would that be? Mesa? I don’t know?

I really don't know the upgrade times at the other smaller airlines....A good place to start your quest would be to ask questions about upgrade times at different airlines on the "regional" side of this board. My airline is hiring and I expect upgrade times to be in the 3 to 4 year range (ExpressJet). We only operate E145/135's.

That does not mean they have to pay "dirtbag" wages. Why not have a starting salary of 50K for pilots and just give a raise every year?

That is what we are trying to do at ExpressJet but it is much harder than that. The National Mediation Board looks at the other E145 operators in the industry and won't let us break that rate by too much. If 50 seat jet pay is to come up, it will have to be an industry wide effort. Currently, Mesa is the lowest paid and Comair is the highest paid.
Good luck! Try ExpressJet, it really is the place to be in my opinion.

 

[BoilerUP]

As a Regional Cpt/Check-airman there is no way I would take a job at JB only to take a 40k pay cut and then upgrade to the 190 and make less than I am making right now. With those pay rates you better start shopping for pilots at Perdue.

Ouch, now that was uncalled for. Sounds like you are a little bitter at, or jealous of, graduates of a university program because they got an opportunity you didn't. That's completely discounting the fact that ex-135 pilots are clamoring for those same "low-paying" jobs as those college graduates, but nowhere do I sense your disdain for them.

IMO, Jetblue's leaked E190 rates are what average STARTING pay should be on the CR2/E145. As of today, they aren't. If you are making a good living flying a 145 at your current carrier, and don't want to take a pay cut to fly bigger equipment, good for you. Don't make the move, keep making decent money, and work within your own union to increase your wages in spite of being low-balled by other carriers.

If I was offered an E190 FO position at Jetblue at those wages with less than 1500/500, would I take it? Yes. If I were in your position (RJ captain), would I take it? No - there's no compensation incentive. I won't sell myself, my family, or my profession short just to fly a bigger airplane, and it doesn't sound like you will either. Good luck with SWA, and I honestly mean that.




And you won't find any pilots at "Perdue", only chicken. Keep looking, though...