Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[sayagain?]

Blue Bayou is a BOOB! Probably talks to the good DR. Craine everyday!

 

[waveflyer]

NOBODY!!!

The PVC does not negotiate, they make suggestions then mgmt say's "no we can't afford it" or on the topic of scope they say "We can't restrict the company from taking advantage of future opportunities" or "Trust us we don't have any plans to outsource pilot jobs"

Who and what is the PVC??

There's a Point to this, I promise.

 

[145 Lawndart]

Who and what is the PVC??

There's a Point to this, I promise.

Ok I will play along for a bit.

Pilot Values Committee

It is a company sponsored committee that acts as an intermediary between the pilots and management to hear the concerns of the pilots. (not what it was originally intended to do but what it has evolved into)

 

[BeachBummer]

The pvc is the door mat on the way through the direct relationship.

 

[waveflyer]

The pvc is the door mat on the way through the direct relationship.

Ok- so the line is that each pilot negotiates directly, but the PVC really works out the details-

If the shoe fits- company sponsored CBAs are illegal under the RLA:
http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html


§ 152. General duties
Fourth. Organization and collective bargaining, freedom from interference by carrier, assistance in organizing or maintaining organization by carrier forbidden; deduction of dues from wages forbidden

Employees shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing. The majority of any craft or class of employees shall have the right to determine who shall be the representative of the craft or class for the purposes of this chapter. No carrier, its officers, or agents shall deny or in any way question the right of its employees to join, organize, or assist in organizing the labor organization of their choice, and it shall be unlawful for any carrier to interfere in any way with the organization of its employees, or to use the funds of the carrier in maintaining or assisting or contributing to any labor organizabion, labor representative, or other agency of collective bargaining, or in performing any work therefor, or to influence or coerce employees in an effort to induce them to join or remain or not to join or remain members of any labor organization, or to deduct from the wages of employees any dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions payable to labor organizations, or to collect or to assist in the collection of any such dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions: Provided, That nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prohibit a carrier from permitting an employee, individually, or local representatives of employees from conferring with management during working hours without loss of time, or to prohibit a carrier from furnishing free transportation to its employees while engaged in the business of a labor organization.

=================================

There are a host of non union airlines who create these "student councils" to intermediate between the company and pilots- it IS illegal, but must be challenged in court.
Like I said, if the shoe fits.

 

[waveflyer]

IOW these sub-groups/loose organizations are tantamount to changing individual pilot's work agreement by negotiating with another arm of itself. Any group representing pilots must be as independent of the company as you yourself would be if you were negotiating for yourself.
It must meet standards of legal representation.
The company cannot have had any part in running, financing, or creating a group that can change your working agreement.

We're all pilots who are good at interpreting legalese. Tell me where I'm mistaken.

 

[145 Lawndart]

IOW these sub-groups/loose organizations are tantamount to changing individual pilot's work agreement by negotiating with another arm of itself. Any group representing pilots must be as independent of the company as you yourself would be if you were negotiating for yourself.
It must meet standards of legal representation.
The company cannot have had any part in running, financing, or creating a group that can change your working agreement.

We're all pilots who are good at interpreting legalese. Tell me where I'm mistaken.

You are not mistaken. Most of us have finally come around to the realization. Hence the upcoming representational election.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

My math might be a bit off, secondly not sure what BB included in his pay, but if it is just pay, he averages about 110-120hrs credit a month. Certainly not the norm.

So far this year, yes, I've had over 100+ hours of credit per month for the year. I also have a bank of 200 hours of PTO I can utilize to get over the 100 mark/month if my schedule does not permit it initially. BTW, you can use 10.5 hours/mo and still keep the same balance!!! PTO is great when it is not squandered.

I know a Captain who had 144 hours of credit last month too, he had one trip bought from him and also a week's vacation though... You can make money here if you get off your butt... I usually do two-day trips, which allows me to be home every day and have no issues with picking up redeyes when I'm in premium time (the bonus round)...

 

[waveflyer]

Blue bayou-
That's great- honestly. Those who want to work can make money- those who can't get that schedule and want a more normal life can make the standard- no problem-

Again- we're all pilots who are better than most at reading legal language- what do you think about that section of the RLA that I posted. Seems to me your PVC isn't allowed under the law. What do you think?

 

[Splert]

Take 4 weeks vacation and call out sick once a year and PTO sell back is limited.

What PTO sell back really is is selling your vacation. That is cool but the bottom 75% are hosed because the top 25% bid all 6 weeks in one pass though the list.

Not much of a benefit to most pilots.

 

[flynvixen]

Did alpa pork your husband or something?

The ALPA job killing machine porks every Company and every pilot group they come into contact with.

Keep the group unhappy and constantly pick fights with the Company that is what ALPA is all aobut, and finding ways to get pilots paid without flying

 

[waveflyer]

The ALPA job killing machine porks every Company and every pilot group they come into contact with.

Keep the group unhappy and constantly pick fights with the Company that is what ALPA is all aobut, and finding ways to get pilots paid without flying

Where have you worked vixen?
Just curious. Those are strong statements.
I personally don't go near that far.
ALPA is a government for us- not a 3rd party business- and as such we must hold the members of that organization responsible for it's shortcomings.
And its not credible to talk of the fights ALPA picks, w/o talking of the fights that the various mgmts pick.
As for something for nothing... Aren't you swa? With a .76 duty rig?
Are you blaming ALPA for wanting back efficiency protections in their contract that we enjoy? Do you think the pilots should work for free and subsidize the hub and spoke systems that other mgmts deploy? Think other groups really enjoy those 2-hour unpaid airport appreciation breaks, many now unprotected by rigs since post 9/11 BKs?

ALPA can be criticized and there is a lot of fair ways to do that. Over the top ideological demonization of the group.... I'm not there as yet

... Though still cautiously suspicious of their SLI actions w/ AT- and hoping they do right by AT and not poison the deal ... But that's another thread

 

[Dan Roman]

So far this year, yes, I've had over 100+ hours of credit per month for the year. I also have a bank of 200 hours of PTO I can utilize to get over the 100 mark/month if my schedule does not permit it initially. BTW, you can use 10.5 hours/mo and still keep the same balance!!! PTO is great when it is not squandered.

I know a Captain who had 144 hours of credit last month too, he had one trip bought from him and also a week's vacation though... You can make money here if you get off your butt... I usually do two-day trips, which allows me to be home every day and have no issues with picking up redeyes when I'm in premium time (the bonus round)...

Not sure why you think a union, any union, would prevent you from making that same kind of pay. You negotiate whatever work agreement your pilot group wants. ALPA does not dictate that you cannot have high credit hours in your bank. If it's legal per the FAR's and the pilots want it, you negotiate any contract you want. All a union does is create a contract that the majority want and keeps the company from reneging.

 

[Dan Roman]

The ALPA job killing machine porks every Company and every pilot group they come into contact with.

Keep the group unhappy and constantly pick fights with the Company that is what ALPA is all aobut, and finding ways to get pilots paid without flying

Im guessing you have had a bad experience with an ALPA carrier, either you worked for one that went out of business or perhaps tried and couldn't get hired by one (can happen to anyone).
ALPA hasn't caused any airline to go out of business, bad management has. ALPA has maintained some benefits and pay at companies that were failing better than if they hadn't had a union.

Amazing you are so anti union and yet you work at SW? They are heavily unionized, you could have the exact same contract with ALPA as you have with SWAPA. There is nothing preventing any ALPA carrier from negotiating whatever they think is best for their respective carrier. You are doing fine with SWAPA, but that doesn't mean ALPA is evil just because it's not SWAPA. ALPA, just like SWAPA, will get you whatever contract your respective managements and pilot groups come up with.
SWAPA, BTW, was able to make large gains back in the 90's because the ALPA carriers had raised the bar enough to make it possible.

 

[Raoul Duke]

There is a huge difference between SWAPA and ALPA. A carrier like Jet Blue will only subsudize ALPA's overhead -- it would throw them under a bus in a second in favor of Delta or United. Anyone who thinks differently is smoking crack. Look what ALPA did to the CCAir pilots -- they signed a contract only to have ALPA national refuse to let it take effect because other pilots didn't like the terms even though those terms were good for the CCAir pilots.

 

[Dan Roman]

There is a huge difference between SWAPA and ALPA. A carrier like Jet Blue will only subsudize ALPA's overhead -- it would throw them under a bus in a second in favor of Delta or United. Anyone who thinks differently is smoking crack. Look what ALPA did to the CCAir pilots -- they signed a contract only to have ALPA national refuse to let it take effect because other pilots didn't like the terms even though those terms were good for the CCAir pilots.

Well I think differently and I don't smoke crack, so I guess that makes you wrong, eh?

Hawaiian and Aloha's (relatively small ALPA carriers) experience with ALPA pretty much prove all the bashers on here wrong. A lot of extremist falsehoods are being spread here by a few with personal agendas. Every airline has a few that don't like what the majority want and cannot even except the results when something goes to group ratification and passes.
There are a lot of pilots from airlines of all sizes that are quite happy with ALPA representation. You just don't here them screaming and making extremist insults.

 

[sayagain?]

So far this year, yes, I've had over 100+ hours of credit per month for the year. I also have a bank of 200 hours of PTO I can utilize to get over the 100 mark/month if my schedule does not permit it initially. BTW, you can use 10.5 hours/mo and still keep the same balance!!! PTO is great when it is not squandered.

I know a Captain who had 144 hours of credit last month too, he had one trip bought from him and also a week's vacation though... You can make money here if you get off your butt... I usually do two-day trips, which allows me to be home every day and have no issues with picking up redeyes when I'm in premium time (the bonus round)...

and it's all about you....get a life...

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Well I think differently and I don't smoke crack, so I guess that makes you wrong, eh?

Hawaiian and Aloha's (relatively small ALPA carriers) experience with ALPA pretty much prove all the bashers on here wrong. A lot of extremist falsehoods are being spread here by a few with personal agendas. Every airline has a few that don't like what the majority want and cannot even except the results when something goes to group ratification and passes.
There are a lot of pilots from airlines of all sizes that are quite happy with ALPA representation. You just don't here them screaming and making extremist insults.

Ummm, wait, where is ALOHA nowadays???

This is what ALPA got for Frontier Pilots recently:

According to the agreement worked out with their union leaders, the pilots agreed to accept delayed pay increases, reduced company contributions to their 401(k) plan, reduced vacation and sick days, and an extension of their collective bargaining agreement by two years.
In exchange, the pilots union would get "an equity stake in Frontier," Republic said in a filing Friday with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It did not say how large a stake.


Read more: Frontier Airlines agrees to give pilots an ownership stake | Kansas City Business Journal

LOL, wait a minute, ALPA is only a group of advisors. It was the local reps that sold them out...

 

[Skyflyin]

Ummm, wait, where is ALOHA nowadays???

This is what ALPA got for Frontier Pilots recently:

Blue, Frontier is not ALPA, they are the Frontier Airline Pilots Association, an independent union. Nice try though.

I also believe, when talking about Aloha, that he is talking about what ALPA did for them to try and keep their jobs and even after their jobs were gone.

 

[Dizel8]

BB,

Like it has already been mentioned, Frontier is not ALPA. Most pilots actually involved in this profession are aware of that, you are not, which begs the question, what else are you utterly clueless about?

Why don't you crack open the PCRB report of yore and take a close look, take a look at the MIT airline report, then you'll see that based on your stellar productivity, you are underpaid.