Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[B6Busdriver]

I keep hearing that "ALPA is only as great as your local leaders/pilots." So what is ALPA physically bringing to the table?

Every ALPA carrier has had their contract decimated, mis-interpreted, violated, etc. Job Protections? Furlough clauses? So... what good is the paper that a CBA is written on?

"ALPA has a great aeromedical/legal department" Well thats great, but if I took 1.95% of my paycheck for the rest of my career and put it in a piggy bank then I would have a great aeromedical/legal team as well.

"You better get ALPA on property before a merger, or else!" I'm sure a jetblue ALPA would get a fair and equitable integration with Delta, in the event they purchased us. Right? I'll let Dave himself negotiate my seniority if it comes down to that.

ALPA carriers wont strike when another ALPA carrier is on strike, it is not a "union" but only an "association." ALPA is a big business and its job is to be the middle-man between pilots and management. They are great at selling fear, all for a price of 1.95% of your life.

Im not anti-union, I just dont think ALPA does anything to deserve a vote. If they had unity and would go on strike when another ALPA carrier goes on strike, great! National Seniority list? Great! Standardized Minimum contracts for all ALPA carriers? Great!

I feel that the pro-ALPA messengers want us to be afraid of the consequences of not voting ALPA, as opposed to being eager to vote ALPA. Judgement is clouded when fear prevails.

How long have you been at JetBlue? I suggest you take the time to study the 11+ year labor history at JetBlue and then see if you think you should vote yes or not.

Who represents you if you are in an accident/incident?
Who represents you in a merger?
Who represents you if any item of your PEA is violated?

It's about having representation. That's all that can be guaranteed. That said, JetBlue has refused to entertain average benefits.

You have no scope.
No merger protection.
Horrible health insurance.
Limited health insurance on LTD.
40% less retirement, most other carriers get profit sharing too.

The list goes on and on.

As for every carrier having their pay and benefits decimated, well what do you expect after 9/11 and in some cases multiple bankruptcies? 92% of airline pilots are unionized....hmmmm. I wonder that might be?

What would the airline business be like today without unions? You would probably see Trans States, Mesa, and Eagle flying 737's for $85 an hour.....as a Captain.

I know you are new to JetBlue and I welcome you. Just ask your fellow pilots and make a decision based on fact. I don't love unions but after being a member of ALPA twice and now at JetBlue for almost 9 years it's high time for representation.

 

[B6Busdriver]

yea no truth to it what so ever, I mean once you have a union job you have a job for life.

Pay not attention to the argumentative troll.

 

[becket]

When will the election results be known?

 

[Lake Alice]

30 days after the vote for certification. The vote is typicaly 22-29 from the filing. It's also a function of when Jetblue provides the requested signatures and seniority list. After ALPA is certified we have to elect MEC/LEC's.

 

[Lake Alice]

I keep hearing that "ALPA is only as great as your local leaders/pilots." So what is ALPA physically bringing to the table?

Every ALPA carrier has had their contract decimated, mis-interpreted, violated, etc. Job Protections? Furlough clauses? So... what good is the paper that a CBA is written on?

"ALPA has a great aeromedical/legal department" Well thats great, but if I took 1.95% of my paycheck for the rest of my career and put it in a piggy bank then I would have a great aeromedical/legal team as well.

"You better get ALPA on property before a merger, or else!" I'm sure a jetblue ALPA would get a fair and equitable integration with Delta, in the event they purchased us. Right? I'll let Dave himself negotiate my seniority if it comes down to that.

ALPA carriers wont strike when another ALPA carrier is on strike, it is not a "union" but only an "association." ALPA is a big business and its job is to be the middle-man between pilots and management. They are great at selling fear, all for a price of 1.95% of your life.

Im not anti-union, I just dont think ALPA does anything to deserve a vote. If they had unity and would go on strike when another ALPA carrier goes on strike, great! National Seniority list? Great! Standardized Minimum contracts for all ALPA carriers? Great!

I feel that the pro-ALPA messengers want us to be afraid of the consequences of not voting ALPA, as opposed to being eager to vote ALPA. Judgement is clouded when fear prevails.

5 issues for me:

No scope
No merger protection
We pay 40% of our insurance premiums compared with 20% and industry standard
Retirement
Last and most important is the ability to collectively grieve. Nothing else matters if we have to act as 2300 individuals.

 

[pilotyip]

Pay not attention to the argumentative troll.

That is right if you are not pro-union, do not post. How come when the unions tried to organize our airline, most of the no votes came from former union members?

 

[sbav8r]

Removed by poster...

 

[B6Busdriver]

That is right if you are not pro-union, do not post. How come when the unions tried to organize our airline, most of the no votes came from former union members?

You have no dog in the fight. Have a nice day.....and buzz off.

 

[vetrider]

There have been some changes that many might not be aware of yet. Alpo is now Dalpo, with world headquarters in Atlanta. Congressman are now booking flights to Atlanta to be lobbied.

 

[pilotyip]

You have no dog in the fight. Have a nice day.....and buzz off.

This is a public site, if you post it is open to response. If you don't want a response go private. BTW I have a dog in this fight, I have about a dozen friends working there and I am concerned about their future

 

[Flyby1206]

5 issues for me:

No scope
No merger protection
We pay 40% of our insurance premiums compared with 20% and industry standard
Retirement
Last and most important is the ability to collectively grieve. Nothing else matters if we have to act as 2300 individuals.

I am new to JB and am trying to learn as much as I can before this vote happens. So I really am trying to listen and take in all the info.

Isnt the PVC close to getting scope, and access to the Bond-McCaskill into our PEAs? What sort of retirement is everyone pushing for? Personally, I would rather keep a 401k platform instead of something that can be taken away in a BK filing, or only get pennies on the dollar when it goes to the PBGC.

My last company had so many grievances filed that it took several years for the grievance to be completed. And usually the violations resulted in the loss of time off, which cant be given back even if you win the grievance. More serious grievances went to an arbitrator, which never went well for the pilots either.

I am 100% with you on the insurance costs, that definitely does suck, but what will we have to give up through a CBA in order to get those costs to change?

Again, I really do appreciate the insight of everyone who has been here for years. I have only my previous ALPA experience to look back upon when making this decision, and that doesnt bode well for ALPA.

 

[Dizel8]

BTW I have a dog in this fight, I have about a dozen friends working there and I am concerned about their future

Under the current scenario, their future is at bigger risk than it would be after a successful vote.

Advise them to vote yes!

 

[Lake Alice]

I am new to JB and am trying to learn as much as I can before this vote happens. So I really am trying to listen and take in all the info.

Isnt the PVC close to getting scope, and access to the Bond-McCaskill into our PEAs? What sort of retirement is everyone pushing for? Personally, I would rather keep a 401k platform instead of something that can be taken away in a BK filing, or only get pennies on the dollar when it goes to the PBGC.

My last company had so many grievances filed that it took several years for the grievance to be completed. And usually the violations resulted in the loss of time off, which cant be given back even if you win the grievance. More serious grievances went to an arbitrator, which never went well for the pilots either.

I am 100% with you on the insurance costs, that definitely does suck, but what will we have to give up through a CBA in order to get those costs to change?

Again, I really do appreciate the insight of everyone who has been here for years. I have only my previous ALPA experience to look back upon when making this decision, and that doesnt bode well for ALPA.

As a newbie you need to read everything you can from both sides. We want your vote but we also want you to have a very solid understanding of the issues.

First, M/B does not apply to Jetblue because we do not have a certified bargaining agent. Next, we currently have no scope and the version presented to you by the PVC allows Jetblue up to 78 seats. This part is in writing. Unlike a CBA at a regional or major none of the scope language is incorporated into our PEA. The Jetblue lawyer agreed that essentially these documents fall under the category of policies or a handtbook. We have no legal standing in a court of law to defend ourselves because these documents are not incorporated into our PEA. Despite the fact you have a DRM and a procedure spelled out it would take you over 6 months to get through the process on your own. Add it 2300 other pilots and its impossible. This is due to the fact we cannot file a collective grievance. Now back to scope. Jetblue is allowed to buy another airline, start another airline and then operated either of those scenarios with our planes on competing routes.
The 2 million that is supposed to be handed out for us to fight in the likely event of a merger is not really ours for the taking. There is no procedure spelled out. The lawyer actually agreed the money is to be used AFTER you have exhausted your own financial resources. So assume Delta buys us and wants to staple you. You have no legal right to M/B. You have to use your own money to fight the legal battle. You have no way of accessing the 2 million supposedly set aside. Delta can use our planes on our routes with their pilots and lastly you can do nothing about it.

I like Jetbue and I like my job but WE need to take care of ourselves. Jetblue management is preying on the fact 4 of the 7 PVC members, in my opinion, are management hopefulls.

Quick and dirty. Feel free to PM me and I'll give you the long version.

 

[Turtle21]

This is a public site, if you post it is open to response. If you don't want a response go private. BTW I have a dog in this fight, I have about a dozen friends working there and I am concerned about their future

I love it. His Avatar with a big ALPA symbol and at the same time he is being condescending to other pilots that advocate pilots being allowed to have all the information to have a free election. No one argues that pilots shouldn't be allowed to vote on their union, accept pilots in ALPA leadership position who look down on those who wonder what ALPA really can provide better than others.

"Buzz off" is such an accurate portrayal of ALPA once they have you on their hook.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I love it. His Avatar with a big ALPA symbol and at the same time he is being condescending to other pilots that advocate pilots being allowed to have all the information to have a free election. No one argues that pilots shouldn't be allowed to vote on their union, accept pilots in ALPA leadership position who look down on those who wonder what ALPA really can provide better than others.

"Buzz off" is such an accurate portrayal of ALPA once they have you on their hook.

Pilotyip is a troll. He may in fact be the nicest guy in the world, I don't know. He likes to argue with anyone and everyone. It's growing old, very old.

 

[PCL_128]

Isnt the PVC close to getting scope

How are going to enforce any "scope" when you don't have a union? Do you have any idea how much money you would have to collect from each pilot to take a major airline to federal court to argue your case on scope? And what do you do when most of the pilots won't agree to contribute to the cause? Any "scope" that the PVC comes up with is worthless and unenforceable in practice. You need a union and a system board of adjustment process to have any sort of enforceable scope.

What sort of retirement is everyone pushing for? Personally, I would rather keep a 401k platform instead of something that can be taken away in a BK filing, or only get pennies on the dollar when it goes to the PBGC.

All of the ALPA major airlines have B-Funds now. A B-Fund is your own money in your own account, much like a 401k, and it can't be taken away in bankruptcy. The difference is that you don't have to contribute anything to get the money. For instance, we have a 10.5% B-Fund at AirTran. That means the company contributes 10.5% of my gross income to my own retirement account each pay check, without me having to contribute a dime. Much better than a simple 401k.

My last company had so many grievances filed that it took several years for the grievance to be completed.

A slow grievance process is usually the result of a lack of dedicated volunteers at your individual airline to keep the process moving. When pilots don't step up to do the work, then a bottleneck gets created that slows down the process. You don't see this so much at the major carriers, because the pilots are usually more involved in their careers, and there are enough people who are willing to do the work. At the regionals, which I'm guessing is where you came from, it is harder to find volunteers, especially qualified volunteers, so it's more difficult to keep the process moving. The lawyers do what they can, but if the pilots don't help themselves, then it's tough to get things done.

I have no doubt that you'll have plenty of dedicated volunteers at JetBlue. You already have the largest organizing committee ever created in ALPA history. You also have a management team that is far less hostile than most carriers. Those things combined will lead to an effective grievance process.

And usually the violations resulted in the loss of time off, which cant be given back even if you win the grievance.

Why do you say that? Pilots get time off awarded to them in grievance for contract violations all the time. In fact, it's probably more common to get paid days off awarded than it is to get cash awarded, since most grievances result from scheduling violations.

More serious grievances went to an arbitrator, which never went well for the pilots either.

ALPA wins 75% of the disciplinary cases that go to arbitration, and over 50% of the contract cases that go to arbitration. That's better than just about every other union in the country. The average is about 30% for all of organized labor nationwide.

I am 100% with you on the insurance costs, that definitely does suck, but what will we have to give up through a CBA in order to get those costs to change?

Why do you feel that you'll need to give something up? You work for a successful and growing company. There is no reason that they can't improve your insurance without you having to give them concessions in other areas. Once you have a legal collective bargaining agent, and the assistance of the NMB, you'll have some leverage to get improvements. Until then, you have no leverage.

 

[pilotyip]

Pilotyip is a troll. He may in fact be the nicest guy in the world, I don't know. He likes to argue with anyone and everyone. It's growing old, very old.

and you don't? The ignore button is useful in fixing this. Free speech, well it is so american

 

[Turtle21]

Pilotyip is a troll. He may in fact be the nicest guy in the world, I don't know. He likes to argue with anyone and everyone. It's growing old, very old.

If you think he is a troll then don't feed him. ALPA expects it leaders to be able to vilify pilots that complain, and ignore pilots that complain twice. imp:

 

[Turtle21]

How are going to enforce blah blah blah? Do you have any idea how much money you would have to collect from each pilot to enforce blah blah blah.

Just ask pilots from TWA, United, USAir, Eastern, Braniff, National, Piedmont, Atlas, Polar, Continental, AWA, American, etc. etc. etc. about how ALPA enforces blah blah blah.

Or just ask them how much money ALPA collects.

Oh, yeah. P.S. We are ALPA and all that $h!t, unless we change our mind.

 

[vetrider]

Alpo didn't even follow it's own merger policy, it invented extracurricular bull******************** 'committees' designed to try and get the AWA pilots to bend over and give the east what they wanted(after the arbitrator already rejected all that ********************). Prater interjected his own biases, predjudices, and politics into it. And he didn't operate in a vacumn.

I hope the TWA guys give em a good swift kick in the balls with this lawsuit. ******************** ALPO.

If anyone from Jet Blue expects ALPO to make a positive difference in a merger with AA, they need to have their heads examined.