Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[GuinessGuy]

LearLove, to finally answer your question about us going in-house........no money.........
Alpa sucks and I don't trust them as far as I can throw them, but it seems that the pilot group and the company is pointing a loaded gun at each other in a draw........both with loaded with alpa bullets..........some are being forced to embrace the inevitable.........BUT it MUST BE EMBRACED AND SUPPORTED FOR IT TO WORK!!!!!!!

Alpa sucks, IBT sucks.......so does Mesa and RAH........I hope I'll change my mind about the first one......

 

[ualdriver]

The beginning of the end for JB.

Are you guys unable to look at the track record of the ALPA job killing machine ???

And here's a perfect example of one of the points I made above. It wasn't 9/11, SARS, bad airline management decisions, an onslaught of discount airline pilots, bird flu, a huge and decades long persistent oversupply of pilots.....should I go on? No, my friends, it was not any of this that caused the degradation of almost all pilots' contracts in the US. It was ALPA.

You see, in an attempt to maximize dues money (because that is ALL ALPA cares about!) ALPA leadership came up with a grand scheme to make legacy airlines go bankrupt, destroy pensions, cut pay, and bring work rules closer to FARs. Yes, you have broken the code. In fact, I heard that if ALPA gets on the property at JetBlue, they are going to immediately start negotiating a concessionary contract. Hey, just don't shoot the messenger. It is a rumor I heard from a friend of a guy who read it on another Internet forum.

Back to reality. As you can see, you'll have guys/gals that cannot separate what a union can and cannot do for you, blame everything bad on unions (in this case ALPA) and hit with inflammatory posts. And for a little whipped cream on top, you have pilotyip, a management pilot whose airline is dependent upon a cheap supply of nonunion pilots to make his world go 'round, adding his two cents. Do the two of you get a little kick back for each antiunion post from Ford&Harrsion? If you don't, you should contact them and see if you can get a little somethin' somethin'

Hopefully the JetBlue guys will see through this bull (and maybe my bull? ) and make a rational decision.

 

[Crzipilot]

Is alpa to blame for the travesties we have encountered within the past 10 years? No.

BUT are they to blame, being the union and the placeholders of our careers? I would have to say yes. sure it's an association, and each airline is an independant entitiy of itself. BUT ALPA was, under my understanding, supposed to be the guiding light, the grand pohbah to ensure that our careers would remain just that, careers. Instead I think you have seen politicisism and self entitlement at the highest levels. ALPA upon themselves, I would imagine were expected to look not at the next contract, but far into the future and shape the career of a pilot in such a manner that we wouldn't have golden handcuffs locked to ourselves, That our jobs wouldn't be outsourced to the lowest bidder, that in tough times there would be enough flexibility to stretch a little where the lowest run got hurt a little, but in the end all would work out. I imagined that ALPA at it's highest level would try to protect career expectations, no matter what carrier you flew for, because as a PILOT you don't MANAGE the enitity or have any say in what the finance wizards do to the particular carrier you became handcuffed to, you simply show up and move the metal in a professional manner.

Your stupid comments reflect the stupid thinking of the upper echelon of ALPA. Well you chose poorly by hanging your shingle at TWA. WTF is that about??? what influence does a pilot have in what managment does with any airline? Pretty much none.

Alpa is supposed to promote the careers of pilots, not the careers of pilots who are tired and afraid to fly and would rather dress up in a suit and sit in a office 5 days a week. Unfortunately, tell me who sits in herndon?

 

[FR8mastr]

good post crzipilot

 

[Turtle21]

And here's a perfect example of one of the points I made above. It wasn't 9/11, SARS, bad airline management decisions, an onslaught of discount airline pilots, bird flu, a huge and decades long persistent oversupply of pilots.....should I go on? No, my friends, it was not any of this that caused the degradation of almost all pilots' contracts in the US. It was ALPA.

You see, in an attempt to maximize dues money (because that is ALL ALPA cares about!) ALPA leadership came up with a grand scheme to make legacy airlines go bankrupt, destroy pensions, cut pay, and bring work rules closer to FARs. Yes, you have broken the code. In fact, I heard that if ALPA gets on the property at JetBlue, they are going to immediately start negotiating a concessionary contract. Hey, just don't shoot the messenger. It is a rumor I heard from a friend of a guy who read it on another Internet forum.

Back to reality. As you can see, you'll have guys/gals that cannot separate what a union can and cannot do for you, blame everything bad on unions (in this case ALPA) and hit with inflammatory posts. And for a little whipped cream on top, you have pilotyip, a management pilot whose airline is dependent upon a cheap supply of nonunion pilots to make his world go 'round, adding his two cents. Do the two of you get a little kick back for each antiunion post from Ford&Harrsion? If you don't, you should contact them and see if you can get a little somethin' somethin'

Hopefully the JetBlue guys will see through this bull (and maybe my bull? ) and make a rational decision.

Cute. You've invented a couple good boogie men.

The only thing I blame ALPA national for is using their power to subvert the vote of the membership. They removed my elected reps, denied a recall of reps that were colluding with them to deny membership ratification votes, and denied a ratification vote on giving away my pension, that they gave away in the middle of the night on a weekend. A lot of us were tired of the condescending attitude from ALPA that always knew better than the membership. But when national abused their power to establish the composition of our reps according to their own wishes instead of according to our membership voting, then they sealed their fate on our property. Buh bye.

Some people are willing to pass off the notion of membership voting as something that pilots don't need to do anymore because ALPA is so capable with all the high paid experts and lawyers. Some pilot groups are good with that, some not so much.

Each JetBlue pilot should vote their own conscience, knowing that the info they get from any prospective bargaining agent is about as reliable as info they get from any salesman.

 

[Smarta$$]

You know what? You are absolutely right.

One of the biggest problems that I think most pilots have about unions is that they fail to understand what a union CAN and CANNOT do for them. Let me give you a couple of painful examples.

In the case of UAL mentioned above and Contract 2000, unions, including ALPA, cannot overcome market forces. Market forces will ALWAYS win eventually. In Contract 2000, UAL pilots had narrow body guys, for example, making 240K per year + a pension + a B fund + cherry work rules competing against airlines like JetBlue (among others) working for 100K/year, FAR work rules, and no retirement. Now tell me, how can any airline pilot union contract, with the profit margins that exist in this industry, survive against discount airline pilot labor competition? It can't, and that is exactly what happened to us. Is it ALPA's fault that the wages and pattern bargaining at all the ALPA legacy carriers was lost in the early 2000's under the onslaught of the discount airline pilot, or was it market forces that caused it? Of course, it was market forces and they always win. I was never mad at ALPA for failing to overcome these forces because it is impossible to do so. However, many pilots feel that ALPA has this magic wand they can wave that make market forces go away, and when it doesn't work it's "ALPA's fault." I think the blame lays elsewhere.

How about the situation with TWA? Here we have an ALPA carrier on the ropes, about to go into bankruptcy. Unfortunately, the airline business in the US is incredibly darwin-istic and unfortunately for the TWA guys it did not work out for their airline. They get an offer from another airline and cut a deal with no promises, and are unhappy with the results.....so they sue ALPA. It's all ALPA's fault.

Now tell me, what did the TWA pilots expect when their bankrupt carrier is about to die? Did they expect ALPA to wave that magic wand again and get their pilots at a dead carrier a DOH seniority integration with a healthy carrier much better off than theirs? Who in the world could expect ALPA, or any union for that matter, to make a pilot at a bankrupt carrier somehow magically whole again? So again, a pilot's career didn't work out how he planned, his carrier goes bankrupt, and it is ALPA's fault. Then the ALPA bashers have some more "ammo."

I guess the executive version of the above is that one has to understand what a union can and cannot do. When the economy tanks, when the price of your labor is significantly undercut by the competition, when oil prices get high, when you get bad management, etc., etc., bad things happen in the airline business and no union on the planet can protect you from the repercussions of those events. If you get that, you're more knowledgeable about unions than 99% of the guys out there.

It is refreshing to finally see some intelligence in this thread.

 

[Smarta$$]

The beginning of the end for JB.

Are you guys unable to look at the track record of the ALPA job killing machine ??? you guys are so fast to jump in bed with the smooth talking job killing machine ALPA, just look at what they have do to the career field and the industry ??? WTFO They have done a bang up job for whoooooooooo ????? United ?? Delta ??? Alaska ??? FedEx ???? and the list of unhappy pilot groups and troubled airlines goes on and on....ALPA must have a real come on line right up to the part when you guys pass the vote then they gotcha.....good luck and remember misery loves company..........ALPA will do for Jet Blue what is has done to the rest of the industry ........drive it into the ground with crazy unproductive work rules and contracts that turn pilots into yogurt shop owners first and stay at home pilots that spend all their time trying to duck flying.

Makes me sad to see you go but this is the end of JB if you vote ALPA in.

Possibly the dumbest post of the thread.

 

[Splert]

The fact is UAL pilots had the "dream" contract before 9/11. This contract was gained through many years of negotiations, slowdowns and strikes. However, the company has the ultimate power-- called bankruptcy. The reset button was pushed and all those years and contracts went down the tubes. No union will ever prevent that.

The 'reset button' when pushed wipes out all shareholder wealth first.

 

[Splert]

I can't wait for my $7500/year ALPA sticker... Save up guys, even though it'll take 2-3 years for our first contract-- we'll be paying dues for status-quo right away. My advice would be to wait until we have the contract then pay the lump sum, that way you'll be saving the interest you could earn prior to that and also take the maximum deduction for taxes that year...

Blue Bayou make over $384,000/year?

 

[Dan Roman]

Possibly the dumbest post of the thread.

+1 You got that right.

 

[Dan Roman]

Blue Bayou make over $384,000/year?

I believe he represents the delusional faction!

 

[Dan Roman]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

You mean like APA? Or perhaps USAPA? The only reason SWAPA has done well is because SWA has had enlightened management.

 

[Dan Roman]

The opposite of that is also true-

Whenever the results are not what you want, blame ALPA, instead of your own co-workers and reps.

Arguing about ALPA is like arguing about abortion. Pick your side, cast your vote. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Bingo! Turtle21's posts are about ALPA not doing what HE thinks they should do.

 

[Dan Roman]

And finally, you guys have a good company and you are a major part of that. ALPA is a great resource for you and offers a lot to benefit your career going forward. Don't listen to the angry self absorbed faction.

 

[vetrider]

Alpo WILL ******************** a pilot group, hard, if that's what they think needs to be done at the time, for whatever reason. All this talk about owning up to ones own responsibity through their own reps and their own actions is find and dandy. It makes sense.

But what about when Alpo won't even do it's damn job and follow it's own C&BLs when your reps and pilot group are pleading for just that? And gets nothing but the 'squeeze' in return?

Alpo can be a good deal. It can also be a royal ******************** job. The Jet Blue pilots will figure it out, they are big boys and girls. Some of us with strong feelings, either way, just can't help but weigh in.

 

[GuinessGuy]

This is a great thread..........I wish that some blue dudes would read this.........someone earlier in this thread stated that the OC was brainwashed by ALPA upper echelon, so true. We'll vote them in, then they will be back to taking care of themselves, then Delta, then CalUal..........
Moak handed out some SILVER ALPA pins to some of out vocal AlpA organizers, and they giggled and shook hands. These guys background......first airline, never in a union before, did 20 with uncle sam........now they feel they are in the club........

I' m going to be forced to support it........
We must all hang together, or will all hang separately.......B.Franklin

 

[mamba20]

Opps! Dont do it guys, you'll regret it.

 

[FDJ2]

Opps! Dont do it guys, you'll regret it.

Like the CAL pilots, or Fedex pilots who left ALPA and then came back when they realized that being independent robs you of the structure and resources to represent professional pilots, or maybe like the Airtran pilots, who went with an independent union, then realized they lacked the structure and resources to adequately represent their pilots. The Airtran MEC has been much more functional and capable than the NPA. I don't see the Airtran pilots complaining too much about ALPA, particularly now that they're in the middle of a merger.

 

[OurMoney1]

All the ALPA bashers are unique in that they collectively fail to see that an ALPA group is only as strong as its local pilot group.

Have crappy local leaders and the end product is going to be garbage. Entrust the group to a bunch of cowboys who are short sighted and lack intelligence and you are screwed. Harvest strong minded individuals who are talented in respective fields and your ALPA group will be solid.

The benefits of ALPA far outweigh the negatives. If the JBLU pilots are able to build an ALPA group that keeps a steady eye on its future without abandoning others past mistakes they will be a tough act to beat.

A clean slate to work from and a young pilot group leaves lots of opportunity. Work hard and stay focused. You are in a great position and I support your endeavors.

 

[PCL_128]

The only thing I blame ALPA national for is using their power to subvert the vote of the membership. They removed my elected reps

Your reps were removed because they were actively violating the ALPA Bylaws. When you are a fiduciary of the organization, you can't take part in actively trying to harm it, which is exactly what they were doing in their support of USAPA while still in office as ALPA reps.

denied a recall of reps that were colluding with them to deny membership ratification votes

No one in your membership ever followed the process to get a recall vote going. It's an incredibly simple process, but still, you couldn't do it. Blame yourself.

and denied a ratification vote on giving away my pension, that they gave away in the middle of the night on a weekend.

Your job wouldn't exist today if those reps hadn't had the balls to terminate the pension that night. You should thank them every day for saving your career.

Some people are willing to pass off the notion of membership voting as something that pilots don't need to do anymore because ALPA is so capable with all the high paid experts and lawyers. Some pilot groups are good with that, some not so much.

Any ALPA pilot group can have membership ratification if they want it. We have it at AirTran, in fact.