Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[Raoul Duke]

Lets get back on subject -- namely what a stupid idea bringing ALPA to JB is. I am always dumbfounded by the sheep that blindly follow ALPA. SWAPA has demonstrated conclusively that an inhouse union is MUCH better than a union that exists for the sole benefit of DL and UA.

 

[sligo1]

Ask the UAL pilots furloughed about that.

Unions don't protect pilots from furlough. A good management team with vision and buisness savy have a chance. Anyone under the illusion that a union can avoid a furlough in tough economic times or national crisis ( 9/11 ), are clearly misinformrd.

 

[sligo1]

Lets get back on subject -- namely what a stupid idea bringing ALPA to JB is. I am always dumbfounded by the sheep that blindly follow ALPA. SWAPA has demonstrated conclusively that an inhouse union is MUCH better than a union that exists for the sole benefit of DL and UA.

Totally agree with you about SWAPA and its success. You have to look at their managements role and acceptance of a union. They do it right! No doubt- now look at J.B. management, they have clearly stated they will not support a union in-house or other. That my friend is the biggest difference in J.B. vs SWA.

 

[vetrider]

You see, right there, thats how ALPA lost it for UAL pilots, they killed the goose. They held the gun to the heads of management and said "go ahead, give it too us or we'll strike". They did, and they got exactly what any reasonably minded person could have told them, they went bankrupt. Yes, ALPA caused that.

That could only happen at United and Delta, for as the old story goes 'alpa is nothing but a United and Delta country club, and don't you forget it son.'

All others, at least the two I've been at, get told by alpo 'you're not good enough, smart enough, and no one likes you. Now get out of my hair.'

They'd never kill the golden goose at any lesser property. They will hang you out to dry though. They'll put the squeeze on you. They'll ******************** you.

 

[Beetle007]

The fact is UAL pilots had the "dream" contract before 9/11. This contract was gained through many years of negotiations, slowdowns and strikes. However, the company has the ultimate power-- called bankruptcy. The reset button was pushed and all those years and contracts went down the tubes. No union will ever prevent that.

The first thing to realize is that not a single pilot group had a contract imposed upon them from a bankruptcy judge. All of them voted for the contract because they feared one being imposed upon them. They could have allowed it to be imposed and then threatened a strike whenever the courts and NMB would allow, and the company would have been in a difficult position to raise bankrutpcy exit financing in that situation.

The other thing is that a company doesn't want to go into bankrutpcy just to get rid of a pilot contract. The amount of money to enter and exit bankrutpcy is large, and management loses control of the company to creditors and a bankrutpcy judge. Shareholders basically lose all of their money and creditors try to get as much as they can on the dollar. Ironically, a lot of what happens in bankrutpcy depends on the political climate. I'm a republican at heart, but with Bush in power the pilots gave away a lot in bankruptcy. With Obama in power, the bankruptcy court gave the GM United Auto Workers about 20% of the company. I don't think they would have gotten 20% of the company without a union?

 

[scoreboardII]

Unions don't protect pilots from furlough. A good management team with vision and buisness savy have a chance. Anyone under the illusion that a union can avoid a furlough in tough economic times or national crisis ( 9/11 ), are clearly misinformrd.

Anyone who thinks the UAL union didn't set the stage for UAL's failure is ignorant of the facts.

 

[Turtle21]

I have definitely received a return on my investment. ...

I'm glad ALPA has a couple fans. John Prater is another one that has received an ROI (Did he help bring back CAL, with their scabs, into the fold of dues members in good standing? Did that dues tsunami into ALPA coffers have anything to do with his meteoric rise to king of the hill? Things that make ya go hmmm.)

For every pilot that applauds ALPA you can find 20 that have seen the light. ALAP sits over numerous competing pilot groups with conflicting agendas. Its little more than a self confessed ponzi scheme that pats itself on the back when it "succeeds" and belittles pilots when "the pilots fail". Just ask Rez and PCL who is to blame.

 

[sligo1]

Anyone who thinks the UAL union didn't set the stage for UAL's failure is ignorant of the facts.

Sorry but you are misinformed poor management started with Steve Wolf and continued for years until Glen Tilton. Greedy management along with poor business decisions caused UAL to faulter. Now with CAL I think they will once again become a power house. The management is the key.

 

[Noserider76]

Lets get back on subject -- namely what a stupid idea bringing ALPA to JB is. I am always dumbfounded by the sheep that blindly follow ALPA. SWAPA has demonstrated conclusively that an inhouse union is MUCH better than a union that exists for the sole benefit of DL and UA.

We would all be better off if we had the same representation. It's the only chance we have against whipsawing each other. US Air guys are pissed at ALPA but what nearly destroyed your company and the lifestyle of many airline pilots? Poor management, yes, but mainly competition from non-ALPA carriers who undercut the prevailing wages of the time in the name of making their carriers "low cost". We'd all be better off on the same team fighting to bring this career back to where it should be.

 

[skidbuggy]

So, what happens next for the guys/gals at jetBlue? What's the next step? Any idea how long before management try to play the various different work groups against the pilot corps?

 

[sligo1]

So, what happens next for the guys/gals at jetBlue? What's the next step? Any idea how long before management try to play the various different work groups against the pilot corps?

Its already started my friend. They posted the ALPA NMB filling on the J.B. website and are taking comments from all the work groups. Funny though the pilots are geeting alot of support from them. The F/A's have their own campaign going on. Well see how it plays out in about 90 days after a vote.

 

[Ty Webb]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not telling you to not unionize - I'm just saying an in-house would be way way better than ALPA, just look at their track record when it comes to outsourcing.

We had an in-house union . . . . and then went to ALPA. ALPA wins, hands down.

SWAPA has been successful, but most in-house unions are going to have a very difficult time starting from scratch.

"ALPA" can only provide info, advice and resources. Nobody forces your pilots to sign an outsourcing agreement.

FWIW, AirTran's agreement for RJ subservice was signed under our in-house union, not ALPA.

 

[vetrider]

We would all be better off if all be better off if we had the same representation. It's the only chance we have against whipsawing each other. US Air guys are pissed at ALPA but what nearly destroyed your company and the lifestyle of many airline pilots? Competition from non-ALPA carriers who undercut the prevailing wages of the time in the name of making their carriers "low cost". We all be better off on the same team fighting to bring this career back to where it should be.

Being alpo wouldn't necessarily fix that. Case in point, AWA. We were basically told we weren't worthy. They eve sent Woerth, Attarian, and Bernard to grace our presence at one meeting to condescend to us, and tell us we had no right to expect this or that because after all, we're just AWA.

 

[Turtle21]

What is better is a perfect world, where management and employees unilaterally work together. Both have their needs met for profitabilty and compensation. Unfortunatley the airline business doesn't operate on that notion. Management has fiscal duties for share holders, pilots have responsability to each other. Collaboration only works when "both" sides are held accountable. Is ALPA the end -all, definatley not but its a start for Jetblue pilots.

ALPA would have pilots believe they are the only option. They just sell advice and services (so they say), but the unspoken motivation is keeping you hooked and under their thumb once they are voted into the driver's seat. An in house union can hire all the services that ALPA has to offer, but do it for less money and still have the power to fire and hire at will, which you won't have if you give the key to ALPA.

Why send your money to outsiders that have their own interest above yours? ALPA has one goal.. it's own survival. When push comes to shove, ALPA's survival and prosperity is more important than the JetBlue pilot group.

 

[sligo1]

ALPA would have pilots believe they are the only option. They just sell advice and services (so they say), but the unspoken motivation is keeping you hooked and under their thumb once they are voted into the driver's seat. An in house union can hire all the services that ALPA has to offer, but do it for less money and still have the power to fire and hire at will, which you won't have if you give the key to ALPA.

Why send your money to outsiders that have their own interest above yours? ALPA has one goal.. it's own survival. When push comes to shove, ALPA's survival and prosperity is more important than the JetBlue pilot group.

ALPA did not solicit us, we went to them. They make no promises other than what we can expect. I think Lee Moak is an upstanding person and a straight shooter. Of course he is another former Marine. We know the pit falls and short commings. We all need to band together for our pilot group and hope for the best. It will only help all of us in the end.

 

[Turtle21]

We had an in-house union . . . . and then went to ALPA. ALPA wins, hands down.

SWAPA has been successful, but most in-house unions are going to have a very difficult time starting from scratch.

"ALPA" can only provide info, advice and resources. Nobody forces your pilots to sign an outsourcing agreement.

FWIW, AirTran's agreement for RJ subservice was signed under our in-house union, not ALPA.

Exactly.. When ALPA gets your dues and you don't like the outcome then its the pilot's fault because ALPA just provides info and advice.


ALPA never takes responsibility for the advice they give you and never disclose to you the conflicts of interest their information contains, seeing how they give advice to numerous pilot groups at competing carriers at mainline and regionals. ALPA can't give objective advice in your best interest when they aren't worried about being fired.

With an in house union your lawyers and consultants work for you, not the mother ship.

 

[scoreboardII]

Originally Posted by Ty Webb

SWAPA has been successful, but most in-house unions are going to have a very difficult time starting from scratch.

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

 

[sligo1]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

Ask any AirTran or FedEx pilot, they will give you a straight answer.

 

[Turtle21]

ALPA did not solicit us, we went to them. ...

What.. is that supposed to prove that ALPA is an honest broker because you went to them?

How many used car salesmen leave their car lot to solicit their next contract from a customer that agrees to monthly payments for something that depreciates the moment they sign the line?

Its too bad you won't know what you got until its too late.

 

[sligo1]

What.. is that supposed to prove that ALPA is an honest broker because you went to them?

How many used car salesmen leave their car lot to solicit their next contract from a customer that agrees to monthly payments for something that depreciates the moment they sign the line?

Its too bad you won't know what you got until its too late.

We have alredy experienced the used car salesman, it's called manaement broken promises for years. I respect your opinion and see you were an Airforce guy-thanks for your service we all appreciate your sacrafice, This is our battle and we just need support.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

10 out of 9 pilots are taught to believe the only alternative to ALPA is nothing. And ironically, absent the brainwashing they receive in exchange for their dues, 10 out of 9 ALPA pilots would still believe that nothing is better, and none of them can remember when they had the wool pulled over their eyes.

And your suggestion is.....?

 

[Beetle007]

What.. is that supposed to prove that ALPA is an honest broker because you went to them?

How many used car salesmen leave their car lot to solicit their next contract from a customer that agrees to monthly payments for something that depreciates the moment they sign the line?

Its too bad you won't know what you got until its too late.

An ALPA union is only as good as its local leadership. If jetBlue elects good leaders, they will have a great union with national support and resources. I would hope that any union leaders would have a great relationship with the company.

I think there are benefits to having a legally recognized structure of leadership, representation, and elections.

 

[Turtle21]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

The supposed difficulty is the wrong question, and by the way it plays right into the ALPA scheme. No union is easy, so what?!

The real question is do you want to pay dues to your own pilot group and elect members of your own pilot group that can hire layers and consultants that work for your best interest (that you can $h!t can if they suck) or do you want to pay dues to a group of masters that you don't elect and can't fire even when their self-interest is in conflict with your own pilot group's interests?

ALPA wants to talk about difficulty instead of loyalties, and then when they suck they remind you they had no responsibility or loyalty to your pilot group... they just provided info and advice from lawyers and consultants that work for them.

 

[Ty Webb]

Exactly.. When ALPA gets your dues and you don't like the outcome then its the pilot's fault because ALPA just provides info and advice.


ALPA never takes responsibility for the advice they give you and never disclose to you the conflicts of interest their information contains, seeing how they give advice to numerous pilot groups at competing carriers at mainline and regionals. ALPA can't give objective advice in your best interest when they aren't worried about being fired.

With an in house union your lawyers and consultants work for you, not the mother ship.

The opposite of that is also true-

Whenever the results are not what you want, blame ALPA, instead of your own co-workers and reps.

Arguing about ALPA is like arguing about abortion. Pick your side, cast your vote. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

 

[Turtle21]

We have alredy experienced the used car salesman, it's called manaement broken promises for years. I respect your opinion and see you were an Airforce guy-thanks for your service we all appreciate your sacrafice, This is our battle and we just need support.

Pilots should be unionized. I get it. My grandfather was the senior vice president of labor relations for an international corporation (ie. he spent his whole career beating up on unions). Even so, he would readily admit that unions are necessary to protect the employees because of how bad the company would treat employees absent a union. Its not a question of whether or not we all support your need to be unionized. Obviously you should unionize.

Its your battle. Its your choice. Listen to whoever you want. Elect whoever you want.

Cheers.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I love how all of the clowns talking about ALPA outsourcing jobs are at airlines that are after deregulation and never had any contract like the ones in the old days......It's because of these very same airlines and pilots that this industry is in the toilet!!

Name one airline that is LEGACY that doesn't have RJ's and SWA doesn't count. blaming ALPA is an absolute smoke and mirror game.....what say the USAPA guys....did they get rid of the RJ scourge? Thought so.....

 

[Ty Webb]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

Which ones have been successful? The ones that have have been built on pre-existing infrastructure . . . like UPS, APA, etc. Re-inventing the wheel is a huge and expensive learning curve.

In the case of AirTran, nearly every VP that the Company had was an attorney, and most had a lifetime of experience in their position. You had to be able to afford to hire and retain the best and most skilled industry attorneys to combat those guys, and at every level. Very expensive for a small, in-house union.

Grievances alone could run into the millions . . . every year, if the Company decides to run it that way. Same with mediated Contract negotiations . . . millions every year. If you only have 2,000 pilots, every million is $500. from each pilot.

 

[Turtle21]

The opposite of that is also true-

Whenever the results are not what you want, blame ALPA, instead of your own co-workers and reps.

Arguing about ALPA is like arguing about abortion. Pick your side, cast your vote. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Well duh, whenever you don't like what happened (if you got to vote on it) you should accept the role you and your own pilot group had in the matter. That is exactly the point. You can pay dues to ALPA to have them remind you it is your fault you elected them or you can pay dues to your own pilot group.

ALPA would rather discuss why your pilot group should be afraid about the levels of service you can hire for yourself, rather than have a discussion about their conflicts of loyalty. Yeah, you could say that discussions of loyalties with ALPA is like trying to bring up abortion.

 

[sligo1]

Pilots should be unionized. I get it. My grandfather was the senior vice president of labor relations for an international corporation (ie. he spent his whole career beating up on unions). Even so, he would readily admit that unions are necessary to protect the employees because of how bad the company would treat employees absent a union. Its not a question of whether or not we all support your need to be unionized. Obviously you should unionize.

Its your battle. Its your choice. Listen to whoever you want. Elect whoever you want.

Cheers.

\
Been there and done that thing brother in Gulf 1. It is our battle and we need your support.

 

[Turtle21]

Which ones have been successful? ....

The ones that haven't paid someone else for their own mistakes.