Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[Dan Roman]

Blue Bayou make over $384,000/year?

I believe he represents the delusional faction!

 

[Dan Roman]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

You mean like APA? Or perhaps USAPA? The only reason SWAPA has done well is because SWA has had enlightened management.

 

[Dan Roman]

The opposite of that is also true-

Whenever the results are not what you want, blame ALPA, instead of your own co-workers and reps.

Arguing about ALPA is like arguing about abortion. Pick your side, cast your vote. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Bingo! Turtle21's posts are about ALPA not doing what HE thinks they should do.

 

[Dan Roman]

And finally, you guys have a good company and you are a major part of that. ALPA is a great resource for you and offers a lot to benefit your career going forward. Don't listen to the angry self absorbed faction.

 

[vetrider]

Alpo WILL ******************** a pilot group, hard, if that's what they think needs to be done at the time, for whatever reason. All this talk about owning up to ones own responsibity through their own reps and their own actions is find and dandy. It makes sense.

But what about when Alpo won't even do it's damn job and follow it's own C&BLs when your reps and pilot group are pleading for just that? And gets nothing but the 'squeeze' in return?

Alpo can be a good deal. It can also be a royal ******************** job. The Jet Blue pilots will figure it out, they are big boys and girls. Some of us with strong feelings, either way, just can't help but weigh in.

 

[GuinessGuy]

This is a great thread..........I wish that some blue dudes would read this.........someone earlier in this thread stated that the OC was brainwashed by ALPA upper echelon, so true. We'll vote them in, then they will be back to taking care of themselves, then Delta, then CalUal..........
Moak handed out some SILVER ALPA pins to some of out vocal AlpA organizers, and they giggled and shook hands. These guys background......first airline, never in a union before, did 20 with uncle sam........now they feel they are in the club........

I' m going to be forced to support it........
We must all hang together, or will all hang separately.......B.Franklin

 

[mamba20]

Opps! Dont do it guys, you'll regret it.

 

[FDJ2]

Opps! Dont do it guys, you'll regret it.

Like the CAL pilots, or Fedex pilots who left ALPA and then came back when they realized that being independent robs you of the structure and resources to represent professional pilots, or maybe like the Airtran pilots, who went with an independent union, then realized they lacked the structure and resources to adequately represent their pilots. The Airtran MEC has been much more functional and capable than the NPA. I don't see the Airtran pilots complaining too much about ALPA, particularly now that they're in the middle of a merger.

 

[OurMoney1]

All the ALPA bashers are unique in that they collectively fail to see that an ALPA group is only as strong as its local pilot group.

Have crappy local leaders and the end product is going to be garbage. Entrust the group to a bunch of cowboys who are short sighted and lack intelligence and you are screwed. Harvest strong minded individuals who are talented in respective fields and your ALPA group will be solid.

The benefits of ALPA far outweigh the negatives. If the JBLU pilots are able to build an ALPA group that keeps a steady eye on its future without abandoning others past mistakes they will be a tough act to beat.

A clean slate to work from and a young pilot group leaves lots of opportunity. Work hard and stay focused. You are in a great position and I support your endeavors.

 

[PCL_128]

The only thing I blame ALPA national for is using their power to subvert the vote of the membership. They removed my elected reps

Your reps were removed because they were actively violating the ALPA Bylaws. When you are a fiduciary of the organization, you can't take part in actively trying to harm it, which is exactly what they were doing in their support of USAPA while still in office as ALPA reps.

denied a recall of reps that were colluding with them to deny membership ratification votes

No one in your membership ever followed the process to get a recall vote going. It's an incredibly simple process, but still, you couldn't do it. Blame yourself.

and denied a ratification vote on giving away my pension, that they gave away in the middle of the night on a weekend.

Your job wouldn't exist today if those reps hadn't had the balls to terminate the pension that night. You should thank them every day for saving your career.

Some people are willing to pass off the notion of membership voting as something that pilots don't need to do anymore because ALPA is so capable with all the high paid experts and lawyers. Some pilot groups are good with that, some not so much.

Any ALPA pilot group can have membership ratification if they want it. We have it at AirTran, in fact.

 

[Dan Roman]

All the ALPA bashers are unique in that they collectively fail to see that an ALPA group is only as strong as its local pilot group.

Have crappy local leaders and the end product is going to be garbage. Entrust the group to a bunch of cowboys who are short sighted and lack intelligence and you are screwed. Harvest strong minded individuals who are talented in respective fields and your ALPA group will be solid.

The benefits of ALPA far outweigh the negatives. If the JBLU pilots are able to build an ALPA group that keeps a steady eye on its future without abandoning others past mistakes they will be a tough act to beat.

A clean slate to work from and a young pilot group leaves lots of opportunity. Work hard and stay focused. You are in a great position and I support your endeavors.

Well said, the whole USAPA debacle pretty much defines the shortcomings of independent unions when an airline is in trouble. They let the loonies take over and look what happened. The fact that some usapa cheerleaders are on here bashing ALPA should be a pretty good clue to the mentality of the ALPA bashers.

 

[Dan Roman]

Like the CAL pilots, or Fedex pilots who left ALPA and then came back when they realized that being independent robs you of the structure and resources to represent professional pilots, or maybe like the Airtran pilots, who went with an independent union, then realized they lacked the structure and resources to adequately represent their pilots. The Airtran MEC has been much more functional and capable than the NPA. I don't see the Airtran pilots complaining too much about ALPA, particularly now that they're in the middle of a merger.

Spot on. I can't imagine AirTran trying to go through this merger without the resources of ALPA, Had they been independent SWAPA would have rolled right over them.

 

[1Speedbird]

Whats to stop that under our current working conditions? You have no idea the company has proposed a " scope clause: that allows the company to create or buy a alter-ego carrier with 78 seats or less. 78 seats umm maybe a E-170 vs. the E-190? Right now they could sell off the E-190 and the crews to anyone they feel like. ( ie Republic, Trans States, Eagle). They can do this because there is no senority protection, in a transacation or a furlough. Yeah we have a furlough protection clause, good luck trying to collect if they choose to change the game. No recourse at all.

Read the proposed language again. It must be less than MAX certificated seating of 78. So no E 170, CRJ 700, CRJ 900, Q400 as they are all certified to 78 seats or more. What’s left is the 50 seat RJs or CRJs with the exception of the ATR 72-500. Which ALPA negotiated scope do you want? DAL, UAL, CAL,

 

[LearLove]

Spot on. I can't imagine AirTran trying to go through this merger without the resources of ALPA, Had they been independent SWAPA would have rolled right over them.

So SWAPA is an independent union - does that mean ALPA is going to "roll over" SWAPA?

 

[OurMoney1]

Well said, the whole USAPA debacle pretty much defines the shortcomings of independent unions when an airline is in trouble. They let the loonies take over and look what happened. The fact that some usapa cheerleaders are on here bashing ALPA should be a pretty good clue to the mentality of the ALPA bashers.

The USAPA debacle is a case study in rogue leadership. It was the local USAir boys that caved during the pension crisis and gave away the farm before all hands showed for work the next day. USAir pilots can only blame themselves for allowing their union to be run by the same 10% of the pilot list for too long. The damage this caused can be seen in the wreckage since 2000. Cant blame them for being crazy, they have good reason to be pissed at themselves and everybody else that didnt get involved till the ship was grounded and taking on water.

A true case study of how not to run a local shop.

 

[Dan Roman]

So SWAPA is an independent union - does that mean ALPA is going to "roll over" SWAPA?

Not at all. It means AirTran will have a lot of good resources and support giving them the best chance at a fair integration. Better than if they had stayed independent.

 

[vetrider]

Not at all. It means AirTran will have a lot of good resources and support giving them the best chance at a fair integration. Better than if they had stayed independent.

Alpo has resources, no doubt. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be used to any great extent. I'm sure they have a cut their losses plan regarding Airtran. I bet a dollar you'll end up seeing some Airtran pilots suing alpo after all is said and done.

 

[My Man SMITH!]

And finally, you guys have a good company and you are a major part of that. ALPA is a great resource for you and offers a lot to benefit your career going forward. Don't listen to the angry self absorbed faction.

How can you say JetBlue is a "good" company if ALPA is needed here? That statement is contradicting. To me, a "good" company is one that has a good product, has a good reputation, and treats it's employee's fairly. I feel we have that here. It seems that everyone has a different interpretation of being treated "fairly". So why ALPA? Apparently because we're not paid SWA rates, we're not given SWA benefits and we're not given SWA retirement.

Yes, ALPA is going to fix that. They are going to bring us better pay, work rules, retirement, and job security. LOL We may see improvements in some areas but at what expense...furloughs? I would rather sacrifice pay to ensure that everyone on the property will be assured a job and not given a pay cut. Just my perspective.

 

[Turtle21]

Your reps were removed ....

Yeah they were removed. That's what I told you!

PCL, I already told you that you and Rez don't count because you can't remain objective .

ALPA national kept biting the hand that fed it. Showcasing their condescension and omnipotence in the middle of a representational election is the bafoonery that sealed their demise on our property. They had a lot of supporters on the fence that had high hopes but ALPA couldn't even pretend to have a bag of carrots for a couple of months until the election was over.

Some folks will forever extol the right of the proletariat to have the controlling vote and others will forever extol the unquestionable divine right of kings. Nothing new to see here. Move along.

 

[Lake Alice]

How can you say JetBlue is a "good" company if ALPA is needed here? That statement is contradicting. To me, a "good" company is one that has a good product, has a good reputation, and treats it's employee's fairly. I feel we have that here. It seems that everyone has a different interpretation of being treated "fairly". So why ALPA? Apparently because we're not paid SWA rates, we're not given SWA benefits and we're not given SWA retirement.

Yes, ALPA is going to fix that. They are going to bring us better pay, work rules, retirement, and job security. LOL We may see improvements in some areas but at what expense...furloughs? I would rather sacrifice pay to ensure that everyone on the property will be assured a job and not given a pay cut. Just my perspective.

ALPA is needed because we have ZERO protections in the likely event of a merger. Jetblue is a good company but it does not feel like protecting the pilot group so most of us have had to put work into protecting ourselves. Did you know M/B does not even apply to us because we lack a certified bargaining agent? Did you know we lack the ability to collectively file a grievance? Forget about benefits and pay for a second because without either one of the above we don't even have jobs.
Lastly, we haven't furloughed because we haven't needed to. We have always been understaffed and during the worst of the economic downturn we were grossly understaffed. It's truly a myth that leadership did us a favor by not furloughing.

 

[pilotyip]

ALPA is needed because we have ZERO protections in the likely event of a merger. Jetblue is a good company but it does not feel like protecting the pilot group so most of us have had to put work into protecting ourselves. Did you know M/B does not even apply to us because we lack a certified bargaining agent? Did you know we lack the ability to collectively file a grievance? Forget about benefits and pay for a second because without either one of the above we don't even have jobs.
Lastly, we haven't furloughed because we haven't needed to. We have always been understaffed and during the worst of the economic downturn we were grossly understaffed. It's truly a myth that leadership did us a favor by not furloughing.

This the same protection that ALPS gave the TWA pilots? Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job.

 

[Dizel8]

My man Smith,

You said:"We may see improvements in some areas but at what expense...furloughs?"

You think they have enough staffing to furlough, either you are a bit gullible or you haven't tried to PTO lately, nor have you actually considered why we are running a bid divisor so high, that people could well time out before the end of the year just by getting assigned target.

Besides, we don't have a no furlough policy, if you didn't understand that before, then take a look at the five mocuments, it's spelled out clear as day.

You are correct though, in that most would rather give up a few bucks as opposed to seeing anyone furloughed, solution, the company cannot set the bid divisor above X hours, let's call it 70, in case even one guy is furloughed. That'll fix that little game right quick.

 

[Freight Dog]

Name one airline that is LEGACY that doesn't have RJ's and SWA doesn't count.

Hawaiian Airlines.

 

[Smarta$$]

This the same protection that ALPS gave the TWA pilots? Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job.

Seriously? What a waste of bandwidth this post is.

 

[pilotyip]

Seriously? What a waste of bandwidth this post is.

yea no truth to it what so ever, I mean once you have a union job you have a job for life.

 

[Crzipilot]

PCL 128 right there shows somewhat, what is wrong with alpa.... A guys that pays for his job, run by a scab, is now in the political mix of ALPA......go figure...

 

[Smarta$$]

yea no truth to it what so ever, I mean once you have a union job you have a job for life.

No union can prevent a BADLY run company from failing. No union can fix a bad business plan. Neither of those have anything to do with jetBlue. You worked for a couple of small, uncompetitive or unsustainable businesses, that just happen to be union, so you think that is proof that unions kill companies, or unions offer no job protections at well run companies. It is a bridge WAY too far.

It is meaningless in this context.

 

[Lake Alice]

This the same protection that ALPS gave the TWA pilots? Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job.

Wow, the least you can do is be logical and realistic. You are going to blame a union because you worked for a pathetic outfit that was shut down because of an owner or another that had declared bankruptcy and was facing liquidation? Seriously? Do Delta, American, United, Continental, SWA, Hawaiin, Alaska, have merger protection, good benefits and pay? At Jetblue all we have is arguably industry standard pay.

You career never amounted to much and now you're reaching. Settle down.

 

[pilotyip]

You career never amounted to much and now you're reaching. Settle down.

good show attack the messenger, As I have said before union have done great things in the past to make this career better, but there are limits to their ability to ignore reality. BTW My career has been an adventure and looking back I am not sure I would have changed much, I don't understand all the unhappiness I see here when guys have my dream job. I will send you a PM.

 

[Flyby1206]

I keep hearing that "ALPA is only as great as your local leaders/pilots." So what is ALPA physically bringing to the table?

Every ALPA carrier has had their contract decimated, mis-interpreted, violated, etc. Job Protections? Furlough clauses? So... what good is the paper that a CBA is written on?

"ALPA has a great aeromedical/legal department" Well thats great, but if I took 1.95% of my paycheck for the rest of my career and put it in a piggy bank then I would have a great aeromedical/legal team as well.

"You better get ALPA on property before a merger, or else!" I'm sure a jetblue ALPA would get a fair and equitable integration with Delta, in the event they purchased us. Right? I'll let Dave himself negotiate my seniority if it comes down to that.

ALPA carriers wont strike when another ALPA carrier is on strike, it is not a "union" but only an "association." ALPA is a big business and its job is to be the middle-man between pilots and management. They are great at selling fear, all for a price of 1.95% of your life.

Im not anti-union, I just dont think ALPA does anything to deserve a vote. If they had unity and would go on strike when another ALPA carrier goes on strike, great! National Seniority list? Great! Standardized Minimum contracts for all ALPA carriers? Great!

I feel that the pro-ALPA messengers want us to be afraid of the consequences of not voting ALPA, as opposed to being eager to vote ALPA. Judgement is clouded when fear prevails.