Jet Blue Pilots Files with N.M.B. for ALPA Representation

[Turtle21]

We had an in-house union . . . . and then went to ALPA. ALPA wins, hands down.

SWAPA has been successful, but most in-house unions are going to have a very difficult time starting from scratch.

"ALPA" can only provide info, advice and resources. Nobody forces your pilots to sign an outsourcing agreement.

FWIW, AirTran's agreement for RJ subservice was signed under our in-house union, not ALPA.

Exactly.. When ALPA gets your dues and you don't like the outcome then its the pilot's fault because ALPA just provides info and advice.


ALPA never takes responsibility for the advice they give you and never disclose to you the conflicts of interest their information contains, seeing how they give advice to numerous pilot groups at competing carriers at mainline and regionals. ALPA can't give objective advice in your best interest when they aren't worried about being fired.

With an in house union your lawyers and consultants work for you, not the mother ship.

 

[scoreboardII]

Originally Posted by Ty Webb

SWAPA has been successful, but most in-house unions are going to have a very difficult time starting from scratch.

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

 

[sligo1]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

Ask any AirTran or FedEx pilot, they will give you a straight answer.

 

[Turtle21]

ALPA did not solicit us, we went to them. ...

What.. is that supposed to prove that ALPA is an honest broker because you went to them?

How many used car salesmen leave their car lot to solicit their next contract from a customer that agrees to monthly payments for something that depreciates the moment they sign the line?

Its too bad you won't know what you got until its too late.

 

[sligo1]

What.. is that supposed to prove that ALPA is an honest broker because you went to them?

How many used car salesmen leave their car lot to solicit their next contract from a customer that agrees to monthly payments for something that depreciates the moment they sign the line?

Its too bad you won't know what you got until its too late.

We have alredy experienced the used car salesman, it's called manaement broken promises for years. I respect your opinion and see you were an Airforce guy-thanks for your service we all appreciate your sacrafice, This is our battle and we just need support.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

10 out of 9 pilots are taught to believe the only alternative to ALPA is nothing. And ironically, absent the brainwashing they receive in exchange for their dues, 10 out of 9 ALPA pilots would still believe that nothing is better, and none of them can remember when they had the wool pulled over their eyes.

And your suggestion is.....?

 

[Beetle007]

What.. is that supposed to prove that ALPA is an honest broker because you went to them?

How many used car salesmen leave their car lot to solicit their next contract from a customer that agrees to monthly payments for something that depreciates the moment they sign the line?

Its too bad you won't know what you got until its too late.

An ALPA union is only as good as its local leadership. If jetBlue elects good leaders, they will have a great union with national support and resources. I would hope that any union leaders would have a great relationship with the company.

I think there are benefits to having a legally recognized structure of leadership, representation, and elections.

 

[Turtle21]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

The supposed difficulty is the wrong question, and by the way it plays right into the ALPA scheme. No union is easy, so what?!

The real question is do you want to pay dues to your own pilot group and elect members of your own pilot group that can hire layers and consultants that work for your best interest (that you can $h!t can if they suck) or do you want to pay dues to a group of masters that you don't elect and can't fire even when their self-interest is in conflict with your own pilot group's interests?

ALPA wants to talk about difficulty instead of loyalties, and then when they suck they remind you they had no responsibility or loyalty to your pilot group... they just provided info and advice from lawyers and consultants that work for them.

 

[Ty Webb]

Exactly.. When ALPA gets your dues and you don't like the outcome then its the pilot's fault because ALPA just provides info and advice.


ALPA never takes responsibility for the advice they give you and never disclose to you the conflicts of interest their information contains, seeing how they give advice to numerous pilot groups at competing carriers at mainline and regionals. ALPA can't give objective advice in your best interest when they aren't worried about being fired.

With an in house union your lawyers and consultants work for you, not the mother ship.

The opposite of that is also true-

Whenever the results are not what you want, blame ALPA, instead of your own co-workers and reps.

Arguing about ALPA is like arguing about abortion. Pick your side, cast your vote. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

 

[Turtle21]

We have alredy experienced the used car salesman, it's called manaement broken promises for years. I respect your opinion and see you were an Airforce guy-thanks for your service we all appreciate your sacrafice, This is our battle and we just need support.

Pilots should be unionized. I get it. My grandfather was the senior vice president of labor relations for an international corporation (ie. he spent his whole career beating up on unions). Even so, he would readily admit that unions are necessary to protect the employees because of how bad the company would treat employees absent a union. Its not a question of whether or not we all support your need to be unionized. Obviously you should unionize.

Its your battle. Its your choice. Listen to whoever you want. Elect whoever you want.

Cheers.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I love how all of the clowns talking about ALPA outsourcing jobs are at airlines that are after deregulation and never had any contract like the ones in the old days......It's because of these very same airlines and pilots that this industry is in the toilet!!

Name one airline that is LEGACY that doesn't have RJ's and SWA doesn't count. blaming ALPA is an absolute smoke and mirror game.....what say the USAPA guys....did they get rid of the RJ scourge? Thought so.....

 

[Ty Webb]

Why? Why is it so difficult? Many have done well, not just SWAPA. Why go for a nationalized self licking ice cream cone?

Which ones have been successful? The ones that have have been built on pre-existing infrastructure . . . like UPS, APA, etc. Re-inventing the wheel is a huge and expensive learning curve.

In the case of AirTran, nearly every VP that the Company had was an attorney, and most had a lifetime of experience in their position. You had to be able to afford to hire and retain the best and most skilled industry attorneys to combat those guys, and at every level. Very expensive for a small, in-house union.

Grievances alone could run into the millions . . . every year, if the Company decides to run it that way. Same with mediated Contract negotiations . . . millions every year. If you only have 2,000 pilots, every million is $500. from each pilot.

 

[Turtle21]

The opposite of that is also true-

Whenever the results are not what you want, blame ALPA, instead of your own co-workers and reps.

Arguing about ALPA is like arguing about abortion. Pick your side, cast your vote. You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Well duh, whenever you don't like what happened (if you got to vote on it) you should accept the role you and your own pilot group had in the matter. That is exactly the point. You can pay dues to ALPA to have them remind you it is your fault you elected them or you can pay dues to your own pilot group.

ALPA would rather discuss why your pilot group should be afraid about the levels of service you can hire for yourself, rather than have a discussion about their conflicts of loyalty. Yeah, you could say that discussions of loyalties with ALPA is like trying to bring up abortion.

 

[sligo1]

Pilots should be unionized. I get it. My grandfather was the senior vice president of labor relations for an international corporation (ie. he spent his whole career beating up on unions). Even so, he would readily admit that unions are necessary to protect the employees because of how bad the company would treat employees absent a union. Its not a question of whether or not we all support your need to be unionized. Obviously you should unionize.

Its your battle. Its your choice. Listen to whoever you want. Elect whoever you want.

Cheers.

\
Been there and done that thing brother in Gulf 1. It is our battle and we need your support.

 

[Turtle21]

Which ones have been successful? ....

The ones that haven't paid someone else for their own mistakes.