JBU to hire the EMB170 Hordes

[PsubS]

Please don't patronize me with economics 101, I'm well past that with an MBA in Finance thank you.

But I enjoy patronizing you. You are so very predictable.

Hmm, implying JB'ers as "whores?" Bringing down the profession?

First, I assume you make similar posts on the Spirit and Airtran boards, as their wages are actually less than JBs for a nominal 82 hour pay month. If you don't make the same accusations at them, then you are simply biased to make an ill-based point. If you do, well good on you--at least you're a consistent bonehead.

OK, Mr. MBA in Finance, if you are so gifted in the world of money, tell me how the legacy carriers can fix their situation in the current competitive market.

Better yet, please compare and contrast the rationale for union representation with the reality of an open, competitive market causing overall margins to narrow.

And if you can that, quit your day job and send in that Nobel prize application.

 

[HA25]

But I enjoy patronizing you. You are so very predictable.

I'll take that as a complement, as that makes me consistent.

For fixing the industry, you need only re-read my prior posts on the subject; I hate to repeat myself.

Finally, if you're such a believer in the free market, why not just get rid of pilot unions, are you for that? if so, then we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[HoursHore]

This is not a fact that anyone in the world of airline economics can dispute. Were it not for LCC's with their labor productivity advantage flooding the market with cheap seats, the "legacies" would be in heaven. This IS a fact.

Productivity and capitailism, ain't they a bitch.

 

[HA25]

Productivity and capitailism, ain't they a bitch.

Lets see what kind of tune you play when the Chinese use that on you in the next 20 years or so... Sadly, I will go down with the same ship. What a bitch!

 

[SpeedBird]

V70T5:

You are a classic case of a person suffering the loss of someone or something loved. Take a look at the following five stages a person goes through following the death of a loved one and you are firmly planted in Stage 3 with some evidences of still hanging on to Stage 2 ("waiting for things to return to normal..."). My advice to you is to seek professional help and move on to an acceptance of those things you can't change.



1-Numbness:

This reaction often follows the death of a loved one and may last for seven to ten days. A sense of being paralyzed, distant, and removed from one's feelings of grief is present. Some have referred to numbing as the body's mechanism for protecting itself from being overwhelmed by the shock of the loss.


2-Denial and Isolation:

Here the bereaved individual has significant difficulty accepting the reality of their loss. This may be expressed in more severe forms as a complete denial of the death or in less severe forms in lapses of thinking and behaving as if the person had really died. While complete acceptance is part of the work of the entire grief process, the initial more acute difficulties with acceptance are included in this phase.

3-Anger:

In this phase the bereaved person feels anger with the world, fate, God, or people in their lives. A sense of "Why me?" and/or "Why not someone else?" give a flavor of this phase. Bargaining with God for the return of the dead person may be part of this phase


4-Depression:

As acknowledgement and acceptance of the loss and the reality of life after the loss grow, sadness and depression become more present.


5-Acceptance:

The bereaved person comes to terms with the loss, and is able to move on to re-invest in the new life that lies ahead. An absence of the extremes of emotion previously experienced is present.

 

[HA25]

Thanks Dr. Freud,

You saved me a bundle in therapy bills. I will go pick up that prescription of zoloft as soon as I hit the submit reply button.

I'll be checking out of this circus now.

 

[AceCrackshot]

I, for one, will back up most of what V70T5 is saying...

I've been around this business all my life, and I've seen it change in a myriad of ways...but at least one thing hasn't...and that's the song of the "free market" from whomever's airline is doing well that day. You guys should have heard how SkyTrain and New York Air were "revolutionizing air transport."

Since 1978, aviation management has been about the rape of infrastructure. For all the santimonious preaching regarding deregulation, it was at its essense nothing more than government sanctioned theft. Now the DL, UA, and AA boys led the pack when Eastern, Braniff and TW were ailing. Now they are being set upon in their turn.

We as pilots aren't seeing the big picture. Its great that Joe Pilot managed to get hired with B6 early and now makes megabucks. Hurrah for you. But don't try to tell me with a straight face that somehow B6 represents some "Great Leap Forward" for aviators. I hope it does. I've got to live in this industry, and I hope B6, with its profit sharing, decent management and employee enthusiam grow. However, history is a difficult taskmaster.

 

[80drvr]

Man, jetblue320, do you work for the same company that I do? Give me a break, you must work 1500 hours a year! How many days do you get off??

I'd be interesting in learning how you can make that much in a year (200K+/160K+ average pilot) given the pay scale and FARs. Is this attainable for most JB pilots or just the super senior?

 

[80drvr]

I'd be interesting in learning how you can make that much in a year (200K+/160K+ average pilot) given the pay scale and FARs. Is this attainable for most JB pilots or just the super senior?

Anyone?

 

[G4G5]

I think I qualify as "anyone"

Since I am still waiting for A320 to justify his numbers, don't hold your breath for a response.

Anyone hired today in all probability will not see 2nd year capt. 3rd year capt numbers are probably more realistic. $116 is 3rd year A320 CA pay. A realistic number is 85 flt hours a month.

$116 x 70(hours a month straight time) x 12 months = $97,440 base pay

Over time is $174 an hour X 15 hours of OT a month X 12 months = $31,320

$128,760 is your realistic 3rd year CA pay. Not too bad, I am sure that most of us would be satisfied with it.

But as you can see it's not even close to the $200K+ that A320 was refering to. Also to note is some "sweating' would be involved to consistantly make the $160+ he was refering to.

FYI
$139 an hour is top 12 year A320 ca pay.
$139 x 70 x 12 = $116,760
208.50 (OT pay) x 15 x 12 = $37,530
$154,290 is what the top end 85 hour a month pilot should REALISTICLY expect to see in year 12.

http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/jetblue/jetblue.htm

I can see both sides of the argument.
Current B6 wages are alot higher then those initially offered by mgt. Mgt increased those wages on their own. Since B6 has no 12 year pilots who cares what the rate is and who is to say they won't increase them in the future?

The other side is, a new contract with Zero wages increases is not good. FNG and the original poster argue that $154K will not seem nearly as large in 2012 when you adgust it for 3% annual inflation(they are correct it won't). The other thing is B6 mgt promised to copy SWA pay rates (or come close) after SWA's last raise B6 mgt seems to want to forget they ever said that.

only time will tell................................

 

[pilotyip]

Those are pay hours

They get straight pay for up to 70 hours per month, you get time and a half over 70, so if you fly 90 hours a month you get paid 100 hours of pay, plus incentives for picking up open time and other hourly incentives, you can get paid for well over 100 hours flight pay per month. I interviewed there back in 2002, and was given a run down at that time, but I may not have it exactly right since it was a while ago.

 

[GogglesPisano]

What's a realistic upgrade time in the Airbus for someone hired tomorrow?

While we're at it, I assume JFK is a junior domicile, compared to FLL and Long Beach. Yes?

 

[jetblue320]

I think I qualify as "anyone"

Since I am still waiting for A320 to justify his numbers, don't hold your breath for a response.

G4G5, Don't hold your breath too long, it's not good for you.

Although I probably shouldn't do this, (post my numbers on line) I did kinda commit so here goes:

August 2004

70 hours @ 132.76 = 9293.20 (Guarantee)
35 hours @ 199.14 = 6969.90 (Overtime)
----------------------------
Gross (month) 16263.10 X 12 =
Gross (annual) 195157.20
PTO (annual) 14338.08 (figured at $132.76 hr. for 108 annual hours)
-----------------------------
$209495.28 annually

Ok, there you have it. Now, twist it anyway you want. I did not include Per Diem (average $300-400 a month) because that really isn't compensation in my book, just beer money. If one averages 35 hours of overtime a month, which isn't really hard to do if you apply yourself, you can do pretty well. You are thinking, what kind of quality of life can a pilot have flying 105 hours a month? Let me break that down for you a bit. In August, my original schedule was for 12 days on, 18 days off @89.5 hours of block. I picked up a couple of trips worth 23 hours and picked up a few minutes here and there for weather delays, ground holds (after block out) etc. leaving my monthly total credit time at 105. I ended up working 16 days altogether. Now, if that is what you call "sweating" well, then so be it. I can count on one hand how many months I have had at JB under 100 credit hours. Therefore I would not consider my example month above "atypical" for ME.

I will concede that this is based on my seniority and not every pilot at JB can do this. And also, my rate is including a 10% override. So, maybe a mid range seniority guy might have to work a bit harder at it and a junior guy, forget it unless he is just a down right QOL less whore.

Ok, well I have hopefully cleared this up so maybe we can put it to rest. If you want to debate numbers further, sorry, I'm out. And, I am sorry that I ever started it, FWIW.

Back to humble mode for me. And besides, it's Sunday and I really do have a life, and a wonderful one at that believe it or not!

C yaaa

 

[G4G5]

Negative Good Buddy, fifth year for me. And, on an average, 2nd and 3rd year Captains make north of $160, no sweating.

Just the facts Man......don't believe it if you don't wanna............


C yaaa

This is what bothered me. Here you are telling someone to stick with the "Facts".
Please explain how a 2ND year pilot can make north of $160K with No sweating?

What are current up grade times?

While I appreciate your numbers and I am glad to see you are doing well. Let's be realistic. How many JetBlue pilots are in you position? 1-2%, you tell us? How many new hires can expect to see similar wages?

 

[jetblue320]

This is what bothered me. Here you are telling someone to stick with the "Facts".
Please explain how a 2ND year pilot can make north of $160K with No sweating?

What are current up grade times?

While I appreciate your numbers and I am glad to see you are doing well. Let's be realistic. How many JetBlue pilots are in you position? 1-2%, you tell us? How many new hires can expect to see similar wages?

Ok, well, maybe I should've been more specific. The "facts" I was refering to was my numbers. The $160k part was a general statement.

I don't want to go any further with this even though I started it but I will answer "some" of your questions. I would guess maybe 10% of us are in this range and yes, a second year pilot would give up some QOL. New hires, are of course FO's and it is impossible, of course.

The current upgrade time is about 20-24 months, I think.

Maybe I should just play it safe from now on and be more vague.

Anyway, I am not being very good at being "out" of this, am I?

Going to the sandbar, see ya around.

 

[G4G5]

Don't worry about it, I was not trying to hold your feet to the fire. As a B6 check airman, I am under the impression that many folks on this board look to you for information. All I was trying to do was correct some bad info(sometimes my response are not as smooth as my landings, LOL). The wife just got back from food shopping, off to the beach with the family. Cya.

105 hours a month, more power to you, that's not for me. May I suggest you spend a few more days at the beach

 

[jetblue320]

Don't worry about it, I was not trying to hold your feet to the fire. As a B6 check airman, I am under the impression that many folks on this board look to you for information. All I was trying to do was correct some bad info(sometimes my response are not as smooth as my landings, LOL). The wife just got back from food shopping, off to the beach with the family. Cya.

105 hours a month, more power to you, that's not for me. May I suggest you spend a few more days at the beach

Fair enough. I get my fair share of the beach since I live there but thanks for the suggestion. You see, I am on a mission so I can spend ALL of my days at the beach in a few years.

Have a good one!!

 

[Blue Dude]

Deleted..... Meant to take it private...