JBU to hire the EMB170 Hordes

[MoGambo]

V70T5,

When your done chasing the mailman off your wife, go to your computer room and kick your kid off the computer. Seems he's been logged onto this sight under your password. Unlock your porn blocker so he can stop whining about how the JB pilots are causing (among other things) the downfall of the profession, making too little money, working too much, getting free planes, not paying for gas or parts, increasing gas prices, causing the war in Iraq, starvation in Africa, El Nino, Global Warming, etc.

 

[G4G5]

Ok, well, look at first year pay (just talking hourly rate) for FedEx and JB.

FedEx = 1st year SO, $50 an hour
FedEx = 1st year FO, $52 an hour
JB = 1st year FO, $51 an hour.

Oh yea, big disparity there as you can see. And, I am sure the upgrade to our lowly Captain "unprofessional" pay is much sooner than at FedEx, but I may be wrong. Do some math then shoot your mouth off again.

And as far as "professional" wages go, I'll go ahead and quote what I do know:

My wages are north of $200k a year, without all the other stuff like matching 401k, profit sharing, discount stock purchase, and options (which for some, are indeed worthless today, I'll concede that one).

But, that's just chump change to you, right?

Like I said, try and have a nice day.
Negative Good Buddy, fifth year for me. And, on an average, 2nd and 3rd year Captains make north of $160, no sweating.

Ok Enough of the BS I need to call you on this one. First off explain to us how you manage to make over $200K on 5th year pay, when 5th year pay is $121 an hour?

This should be interesting.
$121 x 70 x 12 = $101,640, 5th year A320 Ca base pay.
$200,000 - $101,640 = $98,360 in overtime
Hello? Is this the norm for every 5th year B6 pilot? How realistic is it to assume that $100,000 + in overtime, will be there year after year or is this a fluke?
$98,360 / 181.50 (5th year time & 1/2) = 542 hours of overtime in a year
542/12 = 45 hours a month of overtime
45 + 70 = 115 hours a month or 1380 hours a year.
how is this possible?

Next, please explain how a 2nd year capt can make, "North of $160K, with no sweating" When 2nd year A320 ca pay is $113 an hour?

$113.00 x 70 hours x 12 months = $94,920 base pay
$160,000-$94,920 = $65,080 in premium/over time pay
$169.50 = 2nd year A320 ca overtime pay rate (113/2 =56.5 + 113=169.50)
$65,080 / $169.50 = 384 hours of overtime in a year
384 / 12months = 32 hours of overtime a month.
32 hours of overtime + the original 70 hours = 102

For a 2nd year A320 ca to make $160,000 a year he/she has to fly 102 hours a month for 12 months, which equates to 1224 hours a year. Hummmmmm.
BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even if that A320 ca is flying the FAA allowable annual maximum. That my friend requires some "sweating". What are current upgrade times running? 2+ years? Maybe you can explain to us what kind of quality of life a newly upgraded A320 Ca on reserve, (or very jr line) has when he/she is a commuter flying the FAA allowable annual maximum?

The numbers you seem to come up with don't jive? Sure their is check airmen pay and premium additional pay but those things can not be counted on year after year.

http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/jetblue/jetblue.htm

Lastly, when comparing pay rates with FedEx lets compare apples to apples.
FedEx 727 S0 pay is $50
EMB190 Fo pay is $37 an hour.

You seem to think that it's accepatable to just compare the lowest Fedex pay rate and not use the lowest JetBlue pay rate? If it's not the lowest then why is it published, someone in the very near future will be working for $37 an hour.

$37 x 70 hours a month x 12 = $31,080 A YEAR. Talk about the haves and have not's. Your $200k vs Sitting reserve in JFK on the ERJ 190.

I prefer more realistic 12 year captain rate comparison.
JetBlue A320 CA $139
FedEx Widebody CA $201
Lets not forget the CONTRACTUALLY GURANTEED
2% A fund and 6% B fund.
Or the FACT that FedEx has a 74 hour a month gurantee and Jet Blues is 70 hours. Which is huge (48 hours a year) if you wind up on reserve.

 

[iflynights]

Man, jetblue320, do you work for the same company that I do? Give me a break, you must work 1500 hours a year! How many days do you get off??

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Things guys tend to exagerate.....

Man, jetblue320, do you work for the same company that I do? Give me a break, you must work 1500 hours a year! How many days do you get off??

-How much they make.

-How much "love-action" they get and/or the size of their unit.

-The gas mileage their car gets (old school!)

 

[airbaker]

Or the FACT that FedEx has a 74 hour a month gurantee and Jet Blues is 70 hours. Which is huge (48 hours a year) if you wind up on reserve.

The "FACT" is JetBlue's reserve gurantee is 75 hours a month...(12 hours a year) more....whoopie freakin doo! I know this because I guess I'm more of a QOL guy and bid reserve. I'll probably never break reserve guarentee, but then again, getting paid 75 hours for only 6-8 days of work of month isn't too shabby (of course I live in base...it would be a whole different story if I had to commute)

In regards to Jbu320: I don't want to speak for him, but I do know that a lot of check airmen will jumpseat to and from work, and conduct and get paid for a line check (and I don't think those hours count towards the FAR limit) Do that a few times a month and it'll add up.


Seriously guys, let's just try to be happy with where you are in life - both personally and financially, and quit worrying about the other guy. Wasn't it that Aesop fellow that wrote about sour grapes?

 

[G4G5]

The "FACT" is JetBlue's reserve gurantee is 75 hours a month...(12 hours a year) more....whoopie freakin doo! I know this because I guess I'm more of a QOL guy and bid reserve. I'll probably never break reserve guarentee, but then again, getting paid 75 hours for only 6-8 days of work of month isn't too shabby (of course I live in base...it would be a whole different story if I had to commute)

G4G5
If 75 hours is in fact the gurantee you JetBlue folks may want to contact the web site below. That's why I listed on my reply.
http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/jetblue/jetblue.htm
If 75 is the case then an hour a month is not much but the retirement is.
Another thing if 75 is where OT/Premium pay starts, then it only makes A320'S even more far fetched because I gave every month an additional 5 hours of OT.

In regards to Jbu320: I don't want to speak for him, but I do know that a lot of check airmen will jumpseat to and from work, and conduct and get paid for a line check (and I don't think those hours count towards the FAR limit) Do that a few times a month and it'll add up.

G4G5
Then this is not the norm nor should making "200K" a year on a regular basis be expected by the average line pilot. I am sure FedEx has something similar, so the comparison still doesn't work, especially when they pay $61 an hour more for 12 year capt.


Seriously guys, let's just try to be happy with where you are in life - both personally and financially, and quit worrying about the other guy. Wasn't it that Aesop fellow that wrote about sour grapes?


G4G5
No problem, but trying to pass off a fluke 200K salery as acheivable to the avg 5th year line pilot is BS. Or a lie that 2nd year capts pull down 160K with "no sweat" was just a little more kool Aide then most of us were willing to put up with.

Have a nice day.

 

[airbaker]

Okay, last post on this tired subject. Just to clarify G4G5, reserve guarantee is 75 hours (70 straight pay + 5 hours premium) and a line holder's guarantee is 70 (meaning you can drop trips all the way down to 70 hours. But premium pay starts at 70 hours regardless).


Yes, Jbu320's salary is probably very atypical, no question there. I was simply trying to format how he might have come up with his W2. (and I have no reason to doubt him, as he's sincerely a great guy that doesn't wear his W2 on his chest. I think he just gets tired of guys saying he's a sellout when he's actually pulling down some good coin).

Have a good one.

 

[Skygod]

Time and a half starts at 70.

Reserve pay is a minimum of 75, and so includes 5 hours of time and a half.

That is the current pay structure, but I do not feel the need to email every webpage on the Internet and correct every detail they may have wrong.

The vast majority of the folks I fly with are real happy. Flying new planes, helping people, having a blast doing it. A check airman can make over $200,000 if he or she works hard. There is the 10% check airman pay, PTO bank, and on and on. Or average Joe can have 18 days off a month, still fly over 80 hours of productive trips, pay the mortgage, save for retirement, and have a great life. Do not understand why other people have a problem with this.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Hey guys, last year, the top paid employees at JB were three Ck. Airmen who made more than 250k each. But they worked their a$$es off. Aside from line flying, they spent many hours in the box which only counted for duty, not flight time. Typical line Capt. makes around 130 - 160K with decent days off. Add to that 15+% in profit sharing, and you're doing OK. Junior guys are obviously less with senior guys making more. Back to this original thread, having E170 experience will help, but to the best of my knoweledge and after talking with DM, there is no active recruitment of 170 pilots.

 

[HA25]

All I can do is shake my head.

We are in a race to the bottom... How hard can I work, how much of my family life should I give up, and how many hat's should I wear at my job, to earn a living worthy of what I do? That is the question we all need to ask our selves.

Sure, I can take my 16 days off every month and work on the side and probably add $5000 per month to my pay, but what about quality of life?

Maybe those days are over, but it's not anything that DALPA or APA did to cause it... I can't speak for the (IMHO) overpaid F/A's or gate and ramp people, or Managements millions in pay.... but I can tell you that it's not the pilots at DAL and American that did it, not is it the mechanics.

So who did it? Walmart... that's who... and the Walmartization of airline service.. low pay, low benefits, and cheap product.. welcome to the future.

 

[PsubS]

So who did it? Walmart... that's who... and the Walmartization of airline service.. low pay, low benefits, and cheap product.. welcome to the future.

Blah blah blah blah blah...You are confusing symptom versus causality.

Did you ever study Adam Smith? The unseen hand of economic force? Free market economies? It continues to change your life, yet you whine about what are actually secondary effects.

Did you ever study the US steel industry? They almost priced themselves out of the competitive market due to high costs and competition. They then remade themselves into a much more flexible comodity and survived, but it was a terribly difficult transition for most involved.

We are in the same scenario with the airline industry. It is not a race to the bottom; to infer such is promoting a simplistic argument that does not do justice to the true impetus of this change. It is the market that generates the change out there. There are simply other folks who have invented a more financially viable method of transporting people--reduce the cost, provide a living decent wage and profit sharing to promote productivity, and there you go. One industrial change on the way.

Southwest caught the heat for 20 years. Their pay went up, and now their profit margin is razor thin at times.

Now it's JetBlue's turn. It's a five year old start up that happens to be doing well for both its pilots, stockholders and customers. It ain't the cause of this industry's difficuties--it is emblematic of the massive economic shift in our sector. It ain't about pilot's greed or lack of ethics--because maintaining a viable company is a long term process, and too much too soon could ruin the model.

 

[Wolf King]

Yeah!

And it aint about the fact that those silly airbii have the shelf life of a peeled apple or the mechanical soundness of a 1974 FIAT. Woo Hoo! Holy job security, Bat Dude!

What was that thing in the 80's about VooDoo economics? I think it was a few decades ahead of its time. Glug Glug!... Wait a minute... this cool aid seems to have a funny taste.

 

[Dizel8]

"And it aint about the fact that those silly airbii have the shelf life of a peeled apple or the mechanical soundness of a 1974 FIAT."

And then you woke up from your Boeing Dream!

 

[HA25]

Blah blah blah blah blah...You are confusing symptom versus causality.

Did you ever study Adam Smith? The unseen hand of economic force? Free market economies? It continues to change your life, yet you whine about what are actually secondary effects.

Did you ever study the US steel industry? They almost priced themselves out of the competitive market due to high costs and competition. They then remade themselves into a much more flexible comodity and survived, but it was a terribly difficult transition for most involved.

We are in the same scenario with the airline industry. It is not a race to the bottom; to infer such is promoting a simplistic argument that does not do justice to the true impetus of this change. It is the market that generates the change out there. There are simply other folks who have invented a more financially viable method of transporting people--reduce the cost, provide a living decent wage and profit sharing to promote productivity, and there you go. One industrial change on the way.

Southwest caught the heat for 20 years. Their pay went up, and now their profit margin is razor thin at times.

Now it's JetBlue's turn. It's a five year old start up that happens to be doing well for both its pilots, stockholders and customers. It ain't the cause of this industry's difficuties--it is emblematic of the massive economic shift in our sector. It ain't about pilot's greed or lack of ethics--because maintaining a viable company is a long term process, and too much too soon could ruin the model.

Please don't patronize me with economics 101, I'm well past that with an MBA in Finance thank you.

If you wish to use the invisible hand (proper term) to justify the cost cutting happening in our industry on the labor side, then you basically nullify all of the gains that were made by ALPA and other pilot labor unions and are basically telling me that we (labor/pilots) should work for what ever wage the "free market" dictates.

If that is the case, then expect to work more days and more hours with in those days for a lot less money in the future. Managements dream.

You are promoting a way of thinking that should be totally foreign to our profession (read Flying the Line, ALPA Books). With the way people are lining up to fly for a living because "it's fun", the supply of labor vs. the demand for labor in this profession should pretty much insure that we wind up someplace between fast food manager and new car salesman in the world of pay and work schedule, again, barring those "greedy" unions.

Thank you.

 

[Dizel8]

Double post

 

[Dizel8]

"we (labor/pilots) should work for what ever wage the "free market" dictates".

Well, then we get into supply and demand. If the supply, pilots, decreases and the demand, positions, increases, there will be an increase in compensation.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on the point of view, you are subject to free market forces. Take your Volvo for instance, if it was priced 20K higher, because Volvo felt that is what you should pay, would you have bought it? I would venture a guess and say no. Well, why not? Why would you not pay more, so that the Volvo worker could make a decent wage? Of course, we could ask, why you didn't buy american? But the short of the long of it is, that you were looking for something and bought it because, it fit with what you were wiling to pay!

Based on that, Volvo knows their market and is aware, that they must produce the car at a certain cost. The biggest variable is employee cost, so they must adjust compensation accordingly to what the market will bear.

 

[Dizel8]

To put it more succintly, knowing that you are not a fan of jetblue.

If jetblue raised the cost of a ticket by a hundred dollars tomorrow, because jetblue wanted to have the highest paid employees, do you think DAL, AMR, UAL, UAIR etc would match this increase, or would they go for marketshare and hope that they would run jetblue out of business?

If they succeded to run jetblue out of business, would you care?

If they succeded to run jetblue out of business, do you think the troubles would be over and the airlines would go back to normal?

 

[HA25]

D8, all wonderful in an economic vacuum or at the lecture hall, but in reality this profession unlike almost every other will never experience an unnatural supply curve as the very nature of "being a pilot" is always going to drown us in applications per position ratios... hence you will get the $45,000/yr 737 captains and $50,000 yr 777 captains as an eventuality of the race to the bottom as I call it.

Our only chance is if the JB and other LCC guys are able to re-raise the bar so we can strike a labor cost equilibrium artificially created by labor unions.

If that never happens I can tell you that working on the other side of that management/labor fence will seem like a good job all of sudden for me.

 

[Wolf King]

Yes,

Let's keep discussing JB AD Nasuem while we still can, it surely won't be around in eight years.

 

[HA25]

If they succeded to run jetblue out of business, do you think the troubles would be over and the airlines would go back to normal?

This is not a fact that anyone in the world of airline economics can dispute. Were it not for LCC's with their labor productivity advantage flooding the market with cheap seats, the "legacies" would be in heaven. This IS a fact.

 

[PsubS]

Please don't patronize me with economics 101, I'm well past that with an MBA in Finance thank you.

But I enjoy patronizing you. You are so very predictable.

Hmm, implying JB'ers as "whores?" Bringing down the profession?

First, I assume you make similar posts on the Spirit and Airtran boards, as their wages are actually less than JBs for a nominal 82 hour pay month. If you don't make the same accusations at them, then you are simply biased to make an ill-based point. If you do, well good on you--at least you're a consistent bonehead.

OK, Mr. MBA in Finance, if you are so gifted in the world of money, tell me how the legacy carriers can fix their situation in the current competitive market.

Better yet, please compare and contrast the rationale for union representation with the reality of an open, competitive market causing overall margins to narrow.

And if you can that, quit your day job and send in that Nobel prize application.

 

[HA25]

But I enjoy patronizing you. You are so very predictable.

I'll take that as a complement, as that makes me consistent.

For fixing the industry, you need only re-read my prior posts on the subject; I hate to repeat myself.

Finally, if you're such a believer in the free market, why not just get rid of pilot unions, are you for that? if so, then we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[HoursHore]

This is not a fact that anyone in the world of airline economics can dispute. Were it not for LCC's with their labor productivity advantage flooding the market with cheap seats, the "legacies" would be in heaven. This IS a fact.

Productivity and capitailism, ain't they a bitch.

 

[HA25]

Productivity and capitailism, ain't they a bitch.

Lets see what kind of tune you play when the Chinese use that on you in the next 20 years or so... Sadly, I will go down with the same ship. What a bitch!

 

[SpeedBird]

V70T5:

You are a classic case of a person suffering the loss of someone or something loved. Take a look at the following five stages a person goes through following the death of a loved one and you are firmly planted in Stage 3 with some evidences of still hanging on to Stage 2 ("waiting for things to return to normal..."). My advice to you is to seek professional help and move on to an acceptance of those things you can't change.



1-Numbness:

This reaction often follows the death of a loved one and may last for seven to ten days. A sense of being paralyzed, distant, and removed from one's feelings of grief is present. Some have referred to numbing as the body's mechanism for protecting itself from being overwhelmed by the shock of the loss.


2-Denial and Isolation:

Here the bereaved individual has significant difficulty accepting the reality of their loss. This may be expressed in more severe forms as a complete denial of the death or in less severe forms in lapses of thinking and behaving as if the person had really died. While complete acceptance is part of the work of the entire grief process, the initial more acute difficulties with acceptance are included in this phase.

3-Anger:

In this phase the bereaved person feels anger with the world, fate, God, or people in their lives. A sense of "Why me?" and/or "Why not someone else?" give a flavor of this phase. Bargaining with God for the return of the dead person may be part of this phase


4-Depression:

As acknowledgement and acceptance of the loss and the reality of life after the loss grow, sadness and depression become more present.


5-Acceptance:

The bereaved person comes to terms with the loss, and is able to move on to re-invest in the new life that lies ahead. An absence of the extremes of emotion previously experienced is present.

 

[HA25]

Thanks Dr. Freud,

You saved me a bundle in therapy bills. I will go pick up that prescription of zoloft as soon as I hit the submit reply button.

I'll be checking out of this circus now.

 

[AceCrackshot]

I, for one, will back up most of what V70T5 is saying...

I've been around this business all my life, and I've seen it change in a myriad of ways...but at least one thing hasn't...and that's the song of the "free market" from whomever's airline is doing well that day. You guys should have heard how SkyTrain and New York Air were "revolutionizing air transport."

Since 1978, aviation management has been about the rape of infrastructure. For all the santimonious preaching regarding deregulation, it was at its essense nothing more than government sanctioned theft. Now the DL, UA, and AA boys led the pack when Eastern, Braniff and TW were ailing. Now they are being set upon in their turn.

We as pilots aren't seeing the big picture. Its great that Joe Pilot managed to get hired with B6 early and now makes megabucks. Hurrah for you. But don't try to tell me with a straight face that somehow B6 represents some "Great Leap Forward" for aviators. I hope it does. I've got to live in this industry, and I hope B6, with its profit sharing, decent management and employee enthusiam grow. However, history is a difficult taskmaster.

 

[80drvr]

Man, jetblue320, do you work for the same company that I do? Give me a break, you must work 1500 hours a year! How many days do you get off??

I'd be interesting in learning how you can make that much in a year (200K+/160K+ average pilot) given the pay scale and FARs. Is this attainable for most JB pilots or just the super senior?

 

[80drvr]

I'd be interesting in learning how you can make that much in a year (200K+/160K+ average pilot) given the pay scale and FARs. Is this attainable for most JB pilots or just the super senior?

Anyone?

 

[G4G5]

I think I qualify as "anyone"

Since I am still waiting for A320 to justify his numbers, don't hold your breath for a response.

Anyone hired today in all probability will not see 2nd year capt. 3rd year capt numbers are probably more realistic. $116 is 3rd year A320 CA pay. A realistic number is 85 flt hours a month.

$116 x 70(hours a month straight time) x 12 months = $97,440 base pay

Over time is $174 an hour X 15 hours of OT a month X 12 months = $31,320

$128,760 is your realistic 3rd year CA pay. Not too bad, I am sure that most of us would be satisfied with it.

But as you can see it's not even close to the $200K+ that A320 was refering to. Also to note is some "sweating' would be involved to consistantly make the $160+ he was refering to.

FYI
$139 an hour is top 12 year A320 ca pay.
$139 x 70 x 12 = $116,760
208.50 (OT pay) x 15 x 12 = $37,530
$154,290 is what the top end 85 hour a month pilot should REALISTICLY expect to see in year 12.

http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/jetblue/jetblue.htm

I can see both sides of the argument.
Current B6 wages are alot higher then those initially offered by mgt. Mgt increased those wages on their own. Since B6 has no 12 year pilots who cares what the rate is and who is to say they won't increase them in the future?

The other side is, a new contract with Zero wages increases is not good. FNG and the original poster argue that $154K will not seem nearly as large in 2012 when you adgust it for 3% annual inflation(they are correct it won't). The other thing is B6 mgt promised to copy SWA pay rates (or come close) after SWA's last raise B6 mgt seems to want to forget they ever said that.

only time will tell................................