JBers, we should be more careful

[side stick-n]

iflynights,

Union????
Not just no, HELL NO!

 

[80drvr]

It's so amazing how these JB pilots who've been around for a whole year know where our airline's salaries should be. STOP SQWUAKING PLEASE-- you guys talk as if we've been around since the 'Twenties flying mail!!! I liked it much better when we were out flying the line with our five planes trying to make this company what it is today--for you guys who just joined us--what are YOU going to contribute to your airline other than the whining in the crew rooms, cockpits, and message boards?

So I guess only the senior guys are entitled to an opinion...you're sounding more like a legacy carrier every day! ;o)

 

[lowecur]

Don't worry Bayou, these guys will be weeded out. The contract was set up this way for a reason, and that's to get rid of people who are not team players. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the mgt meetings since the pocket sessions.

I hope you people have sent your apps out. I'm sure that other majors will be just die'n to take a malcontent off of B6's hands. You'll have to let us know how many of you get an interview somewhere else. I know if I were the human resources director for another airline, I wouldn't touch any of you with a 10' pole.

 

[KingKong]

It's so amazing how these JB pilots who've been around for a whole year know where our airline's salaries should be. STOP SQWUAKING PLEASE-- you guys talk as if we've been around since the 'Twenties flying mail!!! I liked it much better when we were out flying the line with our five planes trying to make this company what it is today--for you guys who just joined us--what are YOU going to contribute to your airline other than the whining in the crew rooms, cockpits, and message boards?

Who says that we are new hires? Quite frankly I think you are either in an egnorant bliss or you may be Al Spain or one of his cronies.

This contract is lop-sided and it has nothing to do with our current pay scale. I think we need to take a very strong look at what we're going to sign. I hope that someone that shares these concerns has a buddy or wife or bother, etc, that has the expertise in contract law and can give us advise on how to express my/your concerns in this contract. Who ever is reading this who shares these concerns, lets start looking for advise so we don't waste time and end up signing the contract when all we have to do is ask for help.

 

[Networ-King]

After listening to yesterday's pocket session at the LGB base I am in no hurry to sign my "agreement" either. I strongly suspect that there will be an amended contract sent out shortly after the pocket sessions are completed.

My hat's off to the jetBlue pilots who have voiced their legitimate concerns over this new agreement and for management to have the willingness to meet and listen with them (us).

Now it's time to walk the walk....

I don't know which meeting your talking about and how many there are, but my buddy at the LGB "pocket session" said that there were only two pilots that spoke their mind and he could not believe that....... I don't know any one of you guys, but I know this guy very well and I know he's not full of $hit. Again it could be a different meeting, but he did say that only TWO pilots voiced their opinion about the NEW contract. ......

 

[KingKong]

Don't worry Bayou, these guys will be weeded out. The contract was set up this way for a reason, and that's to get rid of people who are not team players. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the mgt meetings since the pocket sessions.

I hope you people have sent your apps out. I'm sure that other majors will be just die'n to take a malcontent off of B6's hands. You'll have to let us know how many of you get an interview somewhere else. I know if I were the human resources director for another airline, I wouldn't touch any of you with a 10' pole.

Felling is mutual, however double the pole length please!

 

[whyohwhy]

Al Spain is the cancer. He's the one who convinced the board to stick with the payrates. He's always been the big cheerleader for them. I couldn't believe his response to some of the hard hitting questions today at the pocket session. He actually told a military bro of mine that the 190 pay was justified because none of us were bringing any actual 190 experience to the table. That's like saying that the FedEx guys deserve sh#t wages when the A380's come on board because nobody will have had any time on the airframe!

I truely think his motivation is to prop up our sagging stock price as much as he can, so that when he bails in a few more years he'll leave with extra millions. And if I see him do that finger thing one more time, I think I'll puke.

Never trust a guy who wears a bowtie! Everytime I follow Gean Shalut's advice on a movie recommendation, I'm dissapointed too.

Fire away!

PS Blue Bayou, get off your high-horse. I get so sick of hearing the word "senior" used at JetBlue. You have 4 freakin years in at the company, whoopidy doo! At the previous major I briefly flew for, some of those gents were entitled to use the word. Then again, they were hired in the 60's, when saying you're an airline pilot actually meant something. And yes, I can't wait to get recalled.

 

[AlbieF15]

I have no dog in this fight, except I know a lot of great people I've helped get ready for the big JetBlue interviews...

I also had the chance to be part of the JetBlue in Jan 02 but went to FedEx instead...

One thing I learned in both fighter squadrons and at the Purple place is fights among pilots are best left in private places. I may think a bro is a dumba$$ for something he said or did in our squadron, but I will not tolerate someone from another squadron criticizing a squadronmate. To help prevent such an event, I NEVER TALK CRAP about someone in the squadron outside our own walls. I'll deal with the problem internally, but outside those walls we are all Tassholes, Hornets, Gamecocks, Tigers, or Boneheads...and we are THE BEST.

Seems like there are some issues to work out at JB. Love Mgt or hate them, if you want anything done, union or no union, you have to stick together. Sniping at each other and basing your opinions on past company/military experience is a waste. You guys need a PRIVATE forum to discuss strategies and come together (PPRUNE?) and you need to support each other (union or not...).

FYI...publically bashing management might make you feel better, but polarizing camps at this stage likely isn't smart. If you want to organize--do it! If you want to give the company time to make this "right"--fine! But I think slinging arrows back and forth among pilots (especially in public) will only undermine either effort (and makes you look a bit juvenille at times if you aren't careful)

I wish all of you the very best of luck. Seems like you have the "magic in a bottle" for a while. I hope you manage to keep it! At the same time, I have seen the quality of JetBlue hopefuls over the last 2 years, and they have been a very impressive group of folks. If these ERJ rates hold, however, the ability to recruit such quality will likey be tougher. I know you will still have a great company, but a lot of talent has flowed towards JetBlue based on the promise of a career promising rapid upgrades to A320 captain at good pay rates and an atmosphere of mutual respect and goodwill. If JetBlue morphs into "just another airline company" with "standard management" and a defacto B-scale payrate, the kind of talent on the property now will become even harder to recruit. Haves (A320 captains and senior ERJ guys) and have nots (new hires stuck as RJ FOs for 3-5 years) will bicker and snipe at each other along the way. And while lots of folks will say "I told you so...", I for one will be sorry to see the slide toward mediocrity and the tendancy to become like "all the rest". I hope either a honest review by mgt or some kind of pilot initiative can provide a new pay scale that can make everyone a bit happier.

And lowcur....this is yet another reason that bringing a second, albeit cheaper type of plane into the SWA model can be a bad idea. Saving a few CASMs here or there but gutting worker esprit and elan is simply being penny wise and pound foolish. Perhaps this type of "b scale, b team, minor league" or whatever euphamism you want division is exactly what SWA knew to avoid in its crew force.

Standard disclaimer--just a fighter pilot and I may be wrong....

 

[whyohwhy]

Albie,


As always, a very thoughtful and thought provoking reply. And they say us fighter pukes have more ego than brain! I'll take your advice and lay low. Hopefully we'll be able to come together and get through this. I'm all for trying to get a private message board going...any takers?

Blue Bayou, I'm sorry for attacking you. I just want to feel like we're all in this together, for the better of JetBlue - those of us on the property now, and those to fill in the ranks in the future.

 

[Blue Dude]

Albie,

Thank you. Somebody had to say it. While I'm as disappointed as many of those posting here, I refuse to air our dirty laundry in public. I haven't posted in quite a while because I haven't had much positive to say, airing grievances here accomplishes nothing, and actually hurts us all in the long run. If you're so disappointed that you're definitely going to leave, fine. Complain loudly to those in charge so they know they screwed up, and then quietly exit stage left. Best of luck to you. But we can all do without the nasty parting shots in a public forum. Maybe the JetBlue management team will recover from this mistake and make things right, maybe not. Either way, if you're definitely leaving it's no longer your problem, so get the heck out of the way and don't make it more difficult for those us remaining to mop up the mess. Thank you.

 

[lowecur]

And lowcur....this is yet another reason that bringing a second, albeit cheaper type of plane into the SWA model can be a bad idea. Saving a few CASMs here or there but gutting worker esprit and elan is simply being penny wise and pound foolish. Perhaps this type of "b scale, b team, minor league" or whatever euphamism you want division is exactly what SWA knew to avoid in its crew force.

Standard disclaimer--just a fighter pilot and I may be wrong....

Your arguement would hold more water if MDA, SKW, and RJET hadn't already lowered the bar. The same reaction is going on over at the regionals towards MESA, and didn't all of the above have their contracts negotiated with collective bargaining. B6 mgt is reacting to the rates that are already on the table, and they aren't going to let anyone have an advantage as they launch the 190 in 2005. This is not a pro-active rate structure, but a reactive pay rate based on a forward thinking mgt style. It is a much easier task to do this now with 800 or so pilots, than it would be with SWA and 5000 pilots. The streets are littered with pilots who put the profession ahead of their company.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How long are people going to keep talking about ALPA as if they are the end all of unions?
Anybody keeping track of the pilots their unionship has helped put on the street?
ALPA is great for safety studies and research..

But..The "highest paid to the last day" attitude has helped to just about kill this industry.

Ive experienced ALPA first hand..

Ive got a furlough card to prove it..

Mike

Highest pay to the last day might be a legacy mentality... It doesn't fester at AWA, IndyAir, etc.... Each ALPA MEC functions autonomously. Case and point.. Mesa.. no highest pay to the last day there....

SWAPA buys ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis services... ALPA has been around longer than most airlines for a reason. They certianly have issues and their survivability may depend on changing with the times....

There is no career airline that doesn't have organized representation. Even in the most liberal state in the union, you don't want the state DA as your prosecutor AND defense attorney.

Now, most Sheeple are willing to sacrifice one or two in the flock, just as long as it is you and not them... However, if you become the sacrificial it is a whole new story... ouch... watch the flock sympathetically support you Kevorkian style, as they slowly and carefully shift their direction away from you as the wolf takes you down....

As far as your furlough comments.... I'm not sure where to start? Are you saying ALPA caused the furloughs? Unions do not hire and fire employees. I'm not sure how collective bargaining can influence the market demands for employment.... (I'm sure someone will tell me!)

It is called an agreement (CBA) for a reason. This is because management has agreed to do it..... They have agreed to these work rules and pay and they can't change them unless you agree. They certianly aren't coerced or forced. Ask the CoEX guys.....

Don't get wrapped up into blaming unions for managements mistakes. This is classic Sheeple mentaility. Blame the sheep dog and not the threat itself. Why? Because having a sheep dog means you acknowldge there is a threat. And no one wants to acknowledge ugliness in their world. It doesn't exist if I don't know about it...right?? That is why I keep my eyes shut!! (this is why management hates FFDO's, but that is another story).

Or perhaps you lost your job because the market demands have changed.....

Most ALPA CBA's have Furlough and Recall around Section 20... If it wasn't there you might not get called back. (assuming there is a company to come back to) Management would love to give someone else your job at first year pay when they start hiring again.....

Yeah... I got my furlough card too.... You ain't a real airline pilot until you are furloughed...at least that's what they tell me..... But I know why I was furloughed and it isn't any damm unions fault.....

 

[lowecur]

Feeling is mutual, however double the pole length please! You actually believe a human resource director for another carrier is going to consider a B6 pilot who is unhappy about the 190 rates, as an asset? Any human resource mgr worth his weight knows this is where the futures headed. You think they want a malcontent from a carrier that is dealing with a situation they will face shortly?

.....

 

[buzzer]

King Kong,
Your statement, " ...the management is right, the pilots going into the 190 will be making more over the year then any other new hire based on a rapidly needed upgrade." make me think.
You should never accept a wage structure that depends on rapid growth to get an acceptable paycheck. You will set a precedent and all other airlines will fall in line. You should look at the salary based on no or slow growth to judge it's fairness.

 

[skirt]

Albie,

Thank you. Somebody had to say it. While I'm as disappointed as many of those posting here, I refuse to air our dirty laundry in public. I haven't posted in quite a while because I haven't had much positive to say, airing grievances here accomplishes nothing, and actually hurts us all in the long run. If you're so disappointed that you're definitely going to leave, fine. Complain loudly to those in charge so they know they screwed up, and then quietly exit stage left. Best of luck to you.

BlueDude,

Well said! The place for people to air their concerns is through the avenues that have been exercised by a huge chunk of the pilot group internally. Concerns have definitely been expressed, loud an clear. Now give "D3 and A" (I love that phrase somebody wrote) time to mull this over, let's relax and see what happens. JetBlue management is different than I have ever seen in any other airline. This entire episode is interesting test of character for us all.

Years ago a 727 F/E instructor once told me when I was learning the panel, "in an emergency, don't react immediately, just sit on your hands and count to ten first and think it over. You're not flying the plane, they are. If you react too quick you might screw something up." I think the same applies here.


Skirt

 

[Flying Freddie]

Hey Skirt,

You are correct. I have faith in this management as in no other that has come before. We will see if all the D's are feeling our pain in the near future. Looking at the past at JB, I am still looking to the future with them.

I was told by a flight instructor a long time ago that when something goes wrong just finish doing your nails. If the problem persists, then take care of it.

 

[skirt]

I was told by a flight instructor a long time ago that when something goes wrong just finish doing your nails. If the problem persists, then take care of it.

Freddie,

What color do you paint your nails??? I'm trying to visualize that and I can't stop laughing.

Skirt

 

[Publishers]

First

" I will also add that any jetBlue pilot both present and future who works for this company that entertains the idea of someday being paid "industry leading" pay rates; and enjoying top shelf work rules (reminicient of a bygone era) better look for someplace else to go fly airplanes. Pilots at jetBlue need to intimately understand the jetBlue business model and how you (we) fit into that system and what is expected over the long-term. The model demands high efficiency from its employees who must also recognize that every controllable cost at this airline will be scrutinized and managed closely, including your (our) hourly pay rates. So if you were planning on buying that cute little cape cod out in the Hamptons 10 years from now, based on jetBlue's future pay rates, y"

This is the first time on these boards that I have seen a comment that reflected appreciation for what the company they worked for was. This is not an airline wanting to be a legacy major carrier.

 

[Flying Freddie]

Freddie,

What color do you paint your nails??? I'm trying to visualize that and I can't stop laughing.

Skirt

Flaming Blue of course!

 

[KingKong]

First I’d like to get my original post back on track.

• I posted this to express that I don’t know if there are problems with the contract. We feel that the 190 pay is low and we should investigate our options to change that part of the contract.

• I don’t agree with section 10 and 12, in that if you are discharged unjustly, you have to split the arbitration fees and your settlement is peanuts compared to what you would have made if you had stayed with the company.

Based on the above, I’m considering professional advice. There may be more in the contract that I’m ignorant about. Since this is a contract between JB and me, I may have to do this by myself. To me this is more like a real estate contract. Buyer and seller work to settle any differences. However I am a realist and I don’t think I can change one word on my own. For those who agree with me, the message gets stronger when the population gets bigger. I welcome anyone who thinks this may help our situation. DON”T SIGN UNTIL THE LAST DAY IN ORDER TO INVESTIGATE OUR OPTIONS (Sit on our hands/do our nails). This isn’t a battle cry for a union, it’s free and cost nothing to wait and maybe things will be worked out in the next month. I think that Dave and David do listen and there is no reason to become a militant about this SMALL hurdle.



My intentions are not to air the dirty laundry, but to get the word out to the people that there is no hurry to sign this contract before us. This seems to be a legitimate forum to reach the public of concern and to search for solutions to what we perceive as problems. There are lots of non-JBers that may have excellent and simple ideas to help correct these issues. I welcome those suggestions and think public expression is the way to go.





By the way, lowecur, I’m not bitter about being here. I think the conditions are the best in the industry and I have no plans on leaving. I have not even considered going to any other company. I think we just need to do a little house keeping to maintain our work habitat as close to perfect as it’s always been. You read too much between the lines and jump to many conclusions which you don’t have any say in. This isn’t a game, it’s my life and I’m guilty of trying to secure my best options.