JBers, we should be more careful

[KingKong]

After going through the JB contact in some detail, I personally can’t find anything that would affect me, the individual, from signing it. I don’t think that the pay is that bad for me and I don’t expect I’ll be terminated under the conditions explained in the contract, but someone could be affected and the cards are in JB’s hands. I am bothered like everyone else seems to be on the grounds that the 190 pay levels are low for the industry. What about general wage increases in the future and protection under wrongful termination? I am feeling more exposed and less represented and protected. You, too, should feel this way since this is a solo arrangement between me/you and the company.



I don’t have much experience dealing in employment contracts since I came out of the military. I wouldn’t be able to point to a good or bad one. In this contract there really isn’t much ability for our inputs for fair compensation during times of growth. In the short term, the management is right, the pilots going into the 190 will be making more over the year then any other new hire based on a rapidly needed upgrade. New hires will be making close to $70k to $80k a year. In contras, five years down the road, some poor individual will have to suck up the $35 /hr wage and stay there for possibly years. When I say poor, I mean someone that this is the best they can do even though their skill level should promote more wages. I don’t see that the contract allows us, a group of pilots, to influence better conditions for those who will be junior to us. It is our responsibility to protect the future of our people in this company and I think we should express these concerns. It’s good for the company and pilots.



As one would expect the company has built this contract in there best interest. We are exposed and lack protection in the section 12. Individuals should have more compensation in section 10 if we are not at fault. Under section 10, Dispute Resolution, in cases of termination, should the Arbitrator find that the Pilot was not terminated in accordance with Section 12 (Discharge), the Pilot deserves more then the contract offers. I think this should be fixed along with other issues that are similar.



This contract was written and reviewed by the company. I truly believe that JB DOES CARE about me. I think that most of the contract is generous and sincere. It’s obvious that management is getting edgy about our concerns due to the fact they’re in full damage control mode now as seen by the increased pocket sessions. Don’t be fooled, they are there to sell the program, not take our ideas and adjust the current contract. This leads me to believe that there could be less then adequate representation from our group and we should demand our inputs be included if reasonable. We do have the right to organize. This doesn’t mean we have to form a union, but we could form our own association that represent our concerns and have input toward our combined interest. Some will reply that we have the Values Committee that would perform this function, but no offense to them, they didn’t have any insight into the new contract. I do believe we should organize and start a committee formed by us, the pilots, with the first line of business to get our expert opinion on the contract before us. With the 890 pilots and growing, a small contribution from each in the group could be enough hiring an expert in contract law that could be useful and allow our concerns to be articulated in the contract.

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

I do believe we should organize and start a committee formed by us, the pilots, with the first line of business to get our expert opinion on the contract before us. With the 890 pilots and growing, a small contribution from each in the group could be enough hiring an expert in contract law that could be useful and allow our concerns to be articulated in the contract.

and so it begins.....if it looks, smells and tastes like a union, don't be afraid to call it one......this is not flame bait....I agree with most of what you say (except that you think the initial -190 rates are fair) so don't think I'm talking badly about your post......I think that most people I've talked with here at JB feel that, sooner or later, some sort of representation (shhh....union) will be inevitable. This type of action by mgmt will only serve to hasten the process. I'm not saying we need ALPA...SWA has done pretty darn well without them.....but some sort of collective voice is needed so they don't just talk at us, rather with us about the future of OUR company........

 

[KingKong]

Heywood,

I don't think the 190 rate is fair, I think it sucks but the first couple years there won't be to much bitching becuase of the high upgrade rate. I think the contract misses the point here and should be adjusted.

 

[Skater]

I totally agree with that. You guys are basically flying a 737 at below low end RJ rates.

 

[bigred]

I don't know if flightinfo has the capability to create an area exclusively for Jetblue pilots, but I know Pprune . org does. Southwest has an active room over on PPrune and it allows for a "free flow" of ideas without all the comments from the peanut gallery. It would probably be a good idea to start a room over there that allows Jetblue guys and gals to discuss their contract internally.

 

[iflynights]

I would be in favor of representation at Jetblue. After this last contract debacle, I realized that we can have committees at the a$$ and still have zero say in how we are compensated, retained (5 year contract), or QOL.

I attended one of the pocket sessions. Obviously, the lack of a raise and very low 190 pay was addressed. Their answer was that need to keep a low cost structure. They also mentioned the quick upgrade, etc, etc. They got on a tangent about SWA +2% (which I have never heard). I don't think any JB pilot expected SWA pay, but I think most thought they were going to get a 10-15% raise, and that the 190 pay would start around $90 or so. I think the cost structure would still be rock bottom at these rates since we get no retirement (except for 3% 401k matching) or major airline work rules. I realize JB is a growth company and simply can't shell out Delta dollars for pay, but they can certainly do better than this.

I have been at JB for over a year and should make captain early next spring, but I (and several friends) have put in apps at SWA, FDX, etc. I guess if enough people talk with their feet, they might start listening. I will definitely go back to my prior carrier when recalled now, when before I considered JB a real career possibility (if I can't get on with SWA before then). And for those at JB that don't think we are bringing down the industry, think again. I personally care about this profession, and 70 bucks an hour as a 100 seat jet captain is selling out the industry. But, unfortunately, we have complained about the pay (how many pilot felt adequately compensated, 50% or so?) and I doubt we will see an about face by management. I guess I need to read "flying the line" again....

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

Unions arent all that bad, SWAPA has presented many ideas to save WN money over the years and through hard work and research these ideas ended up being a win win. Without swapa i think it would have taken a lot longer to get some of these policies in place if ever.

 

[KingKong]

I suggest that anyone that hasn't signed the contract to delay signing it until the last day you can. This would give us some time to see what our options are. No-harm/no-foul. There may be someone out there that can help us investigate what we can do, don’t you think? If we don’t come up with any solutions to the possible problem/challenges we face, we sign the contract by 5 Oct. If you agree, then tell your buds to pass it on. We can at least try to correct what we think may be wrong with the contract, which I think we all believe is bad for the company and industry.

 

[iflynights]

I can certainly wait to sign it...

I suggest that anyone that hasn't signed the contract to delay signing it until the last day you can. This would give us some time to see what our options are. No-harm/no-foul. There may be someone out there that can help us investigate what we can do, don’t you think? If we don’t come up with any solutions to the possible problem/challenges we face, we sign the contract by 5 Oct. If you agree, then tell your buds to pass it on. We can at least try to correct what we think may be wrong with the contract, which I think we all believe is bad for the company and industry.

 

[Vortilon]

King,

Don't confuse people being nice to you with the company "caring" about you. Any time you have an employee number you are a resource to be managed and that is all.

Good luck to you guys over there! The early days/years of establishing representation are not pretty ones and it may take a couple contracts (10 years) to get what you were hoping for in the first place. But if JetBlue is where you intend on spending you career, I think it will be entirely worth it in the long run.

Regardless of what you think about JB Management, ALPA, SWAPA, APA, Teamsters, etc. the aviation system works better with checks and balances in place.

 

[KingKong]

Vortilon, Good point! Thanks for the positive response.

 

[Swede]

JB Guys, you must remember "those who will come after". Don't sit on your 1 yr upgrade and gloat, pave the way so the shmuck hired 5 years from now won't be on food stamps. The most effective unions are those that transcend seniority. Otherwise you will have a 2-tiered pilot group and some seriously bitter future new hires.

 

[#1 Windmilling]

"I have been at JB for over a year and should make captain early next spring, but I (and several friends) have put in apps at SWA, FDX, etc. I guess if enough people talk with their feet, they might start listening. I will definitely go back to my prior carrier when recalled now, when before I considered JB a real career possibility (if I can't get on with SWA before then)."

I Fly Nights,
I think this is exactly the point! Jet Blue management is running a business with a goal of maintaining a 15% profit margin. They are fully aware of how many pilots are on the street and how few airlines are hiring. The industry is flat on its back with wages and benefits deteriorating everyday! Why would they have any incentive to offer a raise? The 190 rates are absurdly low, however management at Jet Blue sees this as a chance to make a lot of money. They know they will have pilots lining up to fly them. This is a business decision.
I was certainly disappointed by the lack of a raise, especially when there was so much talk about it. I have no doubt that a raise will be forthcoming when they see people leaving the company. However, let's be real, no one is going back to their old carriers anytime soon! They know this, this is business, nothing more, nothing less. It's just a disappointment for so many who really believed JB was different. It is the same circus, just different colored tents.

-#1W

 

[SpeedBird]

After listening to yesterday's pocket session at the LGB base I am in no hurry to sign my "agreement" either. I strongly suspect that there will be an amended contract sent out shortly after the pocket sessions are completed.

I don't know what will be changed but I don't think management can expect the pilot group to accept all the terms as presently put forth. I was impressed by both sides candor and professional manner in which the meeting was conducted. While I won't go into details I will say that jetBlue pilots are not afraid to tell the executuve-level crewmembers exactly how they feel about the agreement, and the process by which it was created.

One thing both groups strongly agreed on was the absolute necessity to keep intact the great working culture and environment that has been in place up to this point. I was most impressed that the comments were made with regard to those jetBlue pilots who have not yet been hired and the need to ensure they will be equal partners with the current pilot group going forward. JetBlue management has acted in a manner that has put this in serious jeopardy and I applaud all the jetBlue pilots who showed great courage to step up and speak very eloquently on this and other related issues while keeping the focus on what is best for jetBlue long-term.

I watched the faces of those senior managers who attended this meeting and they showed great concern in their body language as numerous pilots spoke. They were also writing down notes at a furious rate to keep up with the many recommendations that were being offered. I will now sit back and wait to see how "D3 & A" respond to the pilots. I am betting that they will do what is right/needed to restore the pilots' confidence in their management abilities. I believe they have used up all their remaining goodwill and absolutely cannot repeat this same kind of mistake in the future.

I will also add that any jetBlue pilot both present and future who works for this company that entertains the idea of someday being paid "industry leading" pay rates; and enjoying top shelf work rules (reminicient of a bygone era) better look for someplace else to go fly airplanes. Pilots at jetBlue need to intimately understand the jetBlue business model and how you (we) fit into that system and what is expected over the long-term. The model demands high efficiency from its employees who must also recognize that every controllable cost at this airline will be scrutinized and managed closely, including your (our) hourly pay rates. So if you were planning on buying that cute little cape cod out in the Hamptons 10 years from now, based on jetBlue's future pay rates, you better get a reality check and lower your monetary reward expectations.

I will end with this thought provided by one of the executives at the meeting. He said that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver than to do the opposite. The context it was expressed in was based on not giving too much to jetBlue employees too soon only to have to take it back later because management's expectations over the their strategic plans fell short and put the company in financial jeoporady. Management is very aware that there are no sure things going forward and the introduction of the EMB-190 has potential risks to the company that could be significant. I can accept that rationale for now but will be closely watching what develops in the near future.

My hat's off to the jetBlue pilots who have voiced their legitimate concerns over this new agreement and for management to have the willingness to meet and listen with them (us).

Now it's time to walk the walk....

 

[sleepy]

I would just add that being in ALPA is about more than just getting a bigger paycheck. APLA offers some pretty good group insurance benefits, a lawyer if you get into trouble, an accident investigation team, top-notch work on safety issues that effect all pilots, a voice in Washington, DC, a pretty good medical staff if you lose your medical, and job protections if you get into trouble with management.

 

[side stick-n]

Speedbird,

I'll second that post.

 

[klhoard]

. . . <snip>. . . They got on a tangent about SWA +2% (which I have never heard). . . . . <snip>. . .

I think I've read something very similar to this before somewhere. . . . can any of the FedEx pilots help jog my memory??

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

How long are people going to keep talking about ALPA as if they are the end all of unions?
Anybody keeping track of the pilots their unionship has helped put on the street?
ALPA is great for safety studies and research..

But..The "highest paid to the last day" attitude has helped to just about kill this industry.

Ive experienced ALPA first hand..

Ive got a furlough card to prove it..

Mike

 

[iflynights]

Speedbird,

I agree with almost everything in your post. I don't think any one at jetblue expected industry leading wages, but most did expect a raise. I hope we start a move to unionizing. Not necessariy ALPA, possibly an in house union...

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

It's so amazing how these JB pilots who've been around for a whole year know where our airline's salaries should be. STOP SQWUAKING PLEASE-- you guys talk as if we've been around since the 'Twenties flying mail!!! I liked it much better when we were out flying the line with our five planes trying to make this company what it is today--for you guys who just joined us--what are YOU going to contribute to your airline other than the whining in the crew rooms, cockpits, and message boards?