Is there really a shortage of Mechanics too?

[jmreii]

I agree with many of the post here but was encourage by other industries while working on my A&P to see them first before looking at any airline if I decided to make a career in maintenance or management.

 

[glasspilot]

Of course, pilots don't need to maintain their own fifty thousand dollar tool set, and don't have the liability or equivalent training of the mechanic, yet make considerably more than most mechanics, on the whole.

Pilots make more because we're way more awesome. Ask any chick who she'd rather date!

Seriously, pilots don't have "equivalent" training? Four year degree, a year to learn the basics, two years to get experience, another year or two at the bottom of some crappy regional to upgrade, another three or four at said crappy regional to get more experience for a major and then more time in the right seat to get, you guessed it, experience.

All that assuming you are the worlds luckiest pilot and don't get furloughed, downgraded, lost medical, violated, failed check ride, terminated, or killed by yourself, co-pilot, another pilot or...what's left? ...oh yeah, mechanic.

I'd say we have the "equivalent" training and a ton more risk to justify the pay.

 

[avbug]

A four year degree is irrelevant, and is inconsequential to pilot training. A four year degree has no more bearing on obtaining an FAA certificate for a pilot than it does to a mechanic obtaining FAA certification.

The degree of complexity and the amount of material necessary for one to become a pilot and remain a pilot is considerably less than that necessary to succeed as a mechanic. Furthermore, the scope of privilege for the mechanic is much farther reaching than that of a pilot.

A pilot may fly one type of large, complex airplane, with a type rating, whereas a mechanic may work on dozens without any such restrictions...and is expected to be capable and able. A pilot is relieved of this expectation with the simple requisite that he or she must first obtain type specific training. From the day a mechanic is certificated, he or she is expected (and certificated) to be capable of work ranging from electrical to fiberglass to cloth to metal, from trimming a turbine engine to timing a magneto...and is certificated not for working on one type of airplane, but is legal to work on balloons, helicopters, airplanes, etc. Anything.

A pilot, when flying an airplane, is not responsible for the flights performed by other pilots on previous flights. A mechanic performing an inspection, however, buys the entire history of the airplane with his or her signature. That includes the responsibility for certifying that all previous work is in order and correct.

Pilots incur considerably less liability. Insofar as risk, it's very relative. Whether it's the risk of a wheel exploding during inflation or a pressure test on a hose, exposure to machinery and tools, chemicals such as MEK or working in a flammable and toxic environment. ample hazard exists.

I've been working commercially as a pilot since I was a teenager, which was some time ago, now. I've been working longer as an aircraft mechanic. Much of the flying I do is often termed "high risk," and some of it is done is some "high risk" environments. I'm not talking about mere approaches to minimums, but low-altitude flight in low visibility in mountainous terrain, flight in combat zones, etc. I've been through furloughs, downsizing, and all the other aspects of the business we all know...probably more than most. I've also been injured on the job and faced more pressure, more times, as a mechanic and inspector, than as a pilot.

Pilots are a dime a dozen. No shortage. Mechanics, no shortage either, but more in demand. Only about 10% of the pilots out there are worth their weight in salt. By percentage more mechanics. I'd rather spend my time with a group of mechanics, than pilots, given the choice. I've done both fairly extensively. The requirements to be a pilot tend to pale overall in comparison to that of a mechanic.

All that assuming you are the worlds luckiest pilot and don't get furloughed, downgraded, lost medical, violated, failed check ride, terminated, or killed by yourself, co-pilot, another pilot or...what's left? ...oh yeah, mechanic.

Cute, but nonsensical. What's left, you ask? Do you mean to say that a pilot who has been furloughed, downgraded, lost his medical, violated, failed a check ride, terminated, or killed can turn to being a mechanic? Not without taking considerably more training than it took to be the pilot, and not without a considerably greater investment in effort and time than it took to learn to fly.

 

[glasspilot]

Let me see if I follow your logic;

A pilot has to be trained on each and every type in order to be certified to fly it. A mechanic is expected to work on all tyes with a single certification so therefore the mechanic bears more responsibility?

So by that logic the guy who is trained to swing by the hangar and pick up the trash to take it to the landfill has us both beat. He can pick up trash from airports, fire houses, residential homes, comercial offices, police departments, heck...everywhere. He must have buckets of "equivalent training"!

...of course that's silly and we both know it.

The truth is that the more complex the job the more regulation is imposed.

A high pressure hose breaking can physically harm you? Okay, you pay me $1 for every pilot who's died at the hands of a mechanic and I'll pay you $100 for every mechanic who's died at the hands of a pilot. Who do you think will come out ahead?

Better yet, I'll give you 100 to 1 on mechanics vs. Pilots dying from work related causes. Nevermind pilots dying from mechanics...just dying in general. We have way more risk and liability and you know it. What can happen to you? Lose your job if you screw up? Me too, but I can kill myself and hundreds with me along the way. Not to mention, the same can happen to ME and the hundreds if YOU screw up. I carry the real risk for BOTH of us.

My point here is not to start a fight. I treasure every mechanic that keeps my ass safe in well maintained equipment. My only point is to addess the silliness you said about pilots not having "equivalent" training (we have more) and less liability (we have much more).

I respect the work you do. I do. Just remember why you do it...to provide me a safe plane to fly.

 

[avbug]

A high pressure hose breaking can physically harm you? Okay, you pay me $1 for every pilot who's died at the hands of a mechanic and I'll pay you $100 for every mechanic who's died at the hands of a pilot. Who do you think will come out ahead?

You and I both know that most pilot fatalities are at the hands of pilots themselves. Pilot error remains the primary cause of fatalities in aircraft of all types. The most dangerous thing in the airplane continues to be the pilot.

As for some idiotic argument about who dies at who's hands...pilots killing mechanics and mechanics killing pilots, I'll leave that to the mentality of a fourteen year old mind to sort out. It's stupidity, and you know it.

If you want an apples to apples comparison, and it appears you do, then look at how many mechanics are injured on the job, and how many pilots are injured on the job.

I happen to come from a background that sees far, far more pilots injured or killed on the job than you'll likely ever know or see in your lifetime; a disproportionate number of the working community than nearly any other (including pilots in combat). I've had two airplanes I flew lose wings in flight, killing all on board, in fact. I wasn't on board either at the time, obviously, but neither were pilots dying at the hands of pilots. Both were losses of pilots under unfortunate circumstances. I ended up on a hillside in the middle of an active wildfire myself, following an engine failure. I certainly know and comprehend the hazards.

Conversely, I've been cut, burned, broken, drilled, poisoned, and otherwise injured on the job while working on airplanes.

Then again, I've had to actively restrain pilots in flight when they attempted to shut down the wrong powerplant and other occasions involving poor judgement or inaction. Pilots attempting to kill pilots. Go figure. I've caught mechanics in errors, as well, and I've seen mechanics make errors that could have killed other mechanics.

None of your diatribe here addresses the fact that there's no pilot shortage, and no mechanic shortage.

Better yet, I'll give you 100 to 1 on mechanics vs. Pilots dying from work related causes. Nevermind pilots dying from mechanics...just dying in general. We have way more risk and liability and you know it. What can happen to you? Lose your job if you screw up? Me too, but I can kill myself and hundreds with me along the way. Not to mention, the same can happen to ME and the hundreds if YOU screw up. I carry the real risk for BOTH of us.

Not at all.

You fly an airplane, you sign for what you do and what you get in real time, as it happens, and nothing more. I work on an airplane and sign it off as airworthy, especially regarding an inspection, and I take responsibility for everything that's been done to that airplane since it was built. The liability in maintenance is substantially greater than in flying.

Remember, I do both. I've been flying professionally for a lifetime, as well as working on aircraft professionally for the same. I've got a fairly good perspective on both, and flying is kids play compared to maintenance. It really is.

Most pilots wouldn't agree, but most pilots don't have any concept about the "other side of the coin." It would appear that you're one of them.

Just remember why you do it...to provide me a safe plane to fly.

That's a fairly arrogant viewpoint, and an incorrect one, as well.

When I work on an airplane, I have no concern whether you ever get in it, much less fly it. I work on it because I'm paid to do so, and I do it to the standards provided by the FAA, the manufacturer, and industry standards, without any concern for you. None at all.

A pilot has to be trained on each and every type in order to be certified to fly it. A mechanic is expected to work on all tyes with a single certification so therefore the mechanic bears more responsibility?

Yes. Let's say you're type rated in one airplane. Your scope of capability and responsibility extends to that one airplane. Let's say you hold a commercial airplane single engine land, with an ATP multi engine land and that one type. You can fly lots of little single and multi engine small airplanes, and have a single privilege in one large airplane. That's it. That's the scope of your usefulness.

The mechanic, on the other hand, is useful for, and able to legally work on any aircraft; any balloon, any helicopter, any glider, any airplane.

The mechanic isn't at all like the garbageman, who doesn't have to sign for his garbage, doesn't have to take the responsibility or liability for it, and who isn't federally certified to take that responsibility. Moreover, the garbageman isn't qualified to fly, or work on aircraft, and therefore the example is pointless and irrelevant.

As the pilot with that one type, you're very limited in your qualification and capability. As the mechanic with the most basic certification and two ratings...airframe and powerplant, working on any aircraft is a possibility. Not worrying about working on one single type...but all, everything. Translated in comparison to pilot certification, being a mechanic is equivilent to being a pilot certified to fly everything...all type ratings, all categories, all classes, all certifications.

Flying is a simple endeavor in comparison to maintaining an aircraft.

 

[glasspilot]

You are not smart and I'm done with this.

Keep thinking mechanics are not typed rated to work on specific aircraft because they are so smart and those stupid pilot, who must be dumb, have to be trained on specific equipment.

Keep thinking your little boo boos on the job are a bigger deal and offer more risk then the pilots who climb in FLY the plane.

Keep thinking you have more training for a job that anyone in any health can do then mine.

And reading back I did drone on too much about pilots killing and getting killed or whatever, but the point remains; I carry the risk for BOTH of our mistakes. You do not.

Respond, I'll read it, you can have the last word if you want but I'm done. I made my point, any 3 year old can grasp it and I have to go to work.

gp

 

[avbug]

You are not smart and I'm done with this.

Very intellectual. When that's all you've got, I guess that's all you've got. Nice try, though.

Keep thinking mechanics are not typed rated to work on specific aircraft because they are so smart and those stupid pilot, who must be dumb, have to be trained on specific equipment.

Do you realize you sound like a 14 year old? I've said nothing about pilots or mechanics being "smart" or "dumb." This is something you've dreamed up and introduced. Of course you're done with this, because you're arguing points which were never made...and exceedingly stupid ones, at that.

Keep thinking your little boo boos on the job are a bigger deal and offer more risk then the pilots who climb in FLY the plane.

I said nothing of the kind; put words in your own mouth, and not mine.

My little "boo-boos," you say? Setting aside that nobody over 2 years old says such things, you do realize that I'm the guy that flies the airplane, right? Do you have any concept of what it means to face risk in flight? None of this point to point, IFR, auto-pilot on flying...but flying which operates in a true, hazardous environment? I do...and as I stated before, it's not the mechanics which are the threat there. It's the pilots. The most dangerous component in the cockpit has always been, and continues to be, the pilot.

Keep thinking you have more training for a job that anyone in any health can do then mine.

Again, this is something you've dreamed up.

It's "than mine," and you do understand that I do the same job, right? I'm a pilot as well; an active, ATP-certificated pilot with almost certainly far more certification and experience than you. I also have the advantage of a long background as a mechanic and inspector, and not only can I do "your job" very well, but I can do something that perhaps you can't: work on the airplanes and execute the paperwork necessary to return them to service. Can you do that? Do you have the tools, training, experience, and certification to do that?

I carry the risk for BOTH of our mistakes. You do not.

I don't? As an active professional pilot, I don't? As an active, long-term mechanic and inspector, I don't? You really have no clue whence you speak.

In fact, as previously noted, and perhaps beyond your clearly limited capacity for reason, a mechanic takes on the liability for all actions by mechanics who have previously worked on the airplane, beginning from the time the airplane was first created, when signing for the airworthiness of the airplane. A pilot takes on his single, sole flight. The pilot's liability on that flight begins when the airplane moves under it's own power at the start of the flight, and it ends when the airplane comes to a rest at the end of a flight. The mechanic's liability goes back to the time the airpalne was created, and continues until the work is repeated or superceded by another mechanic.

The pilot's certificate is on the line during the time he or she operates the airplane from A to B, and then that liability ends. The mechanic, not so much. The mechanic's work remains under scrutiny long after he's done with the work, as does his liability. The degree of technicality, precision, and accuracy to which the mechanic must work is far more critical than that to which the pilot must work. A pilot operates within parameters such as a hundred feet, within 10 knots, within a dot. A mechanic operates within tolerances such as thousandths of an inch, inch-pounds of torque, and milivolts.

I made my point, any 3 year old can grasp it and I have to go to work.

A three-year-old can grasp it because it's written and thought-out on the level of a three-year-old. You're upset, and you've thrown a tantrum because you feel like "your job" has been slighted. You feel threatened. You're clearly insecure about your position, and the work you do. You're entitled to that.

You do understand that this is a maintenance forum, discussing maintenance topics, in particular the topic of a mechanic shortage, don't you? Perhaps your vast talents and excessive training would best be served some place else...where you're actually qualified to comment.

 

[acpilot]

When I work on an airplane, I have no concern whether you ever get in it, much less fly it. I work on it because I'm paid to do so, and I do it to the standards provided by the FAA, the manufacturer, and industry standards, without any concern for you. None at all.

That's a very good answer.
---
Regarding the general theme of the rest of your post:
You're correct that A&P's can work on any type of plane. I think common sense dictates that the A&P should receive training on significantly different types, however. You would know better than I, though.

I also think that a type is required because a pilot cannot pull over and consult a manual in the same way an A&P can stop working and consult diagrams. I appreciate the work A&P's do. It's vital to the industry. But to insinuate that A&P's are "better" than pilots is just a waste of time. The work both do is not hard. It may be time consuming, but it's not intellectually taxing.

I know a few A&P's who should never become pilots (just as we probably both know a few pilots who should stay away from a MX hangar!).

 

[avbug]

But to insinuate that A&P's are "better" than pilots is just a waste of time.

No one has insinuated any such thing here; least all, me.

The work both do is not hard. It may be time consuming, but it's not intellectually taxing.

I don't know anyone who has done single pilot IFR in a busy environment who would suggest it's easy or a walk in the park. Likewise, anyone who's done much sheet metal work, composite work, or balanced a turbine wheel, or performed complex wiring and electrical work most certainly doesn't have it easy. The work can be quite taxing, intellectually. It can be quite demanding physically. I've had flights after which I couldn't get out of the cockpit for 45 minutes because I couldn't use my legs, and in which the sweat poured from under my helmet. I've been completely soaked through with sweat, with tired arms and legs after some operations.

Not all the work a pilot or mechanic does is hard, but some of it certainly is. Not all of it is intellectually taxing, but some of it most certainly is.

 

[acpilot]

Regarding the single pilot in IMC thing...

At times it can be challenging...but that's why it's fun! It should generally be uneventful and unremarkable for a competent pilot, though.