Is there really a shortage of Mechanics too?

[glasspilot]

Great post.

Pilots are the boss because we write up planes?

Really? So I guess that makes dispatch the real boss cause they tell us where to go. Or maybe ATC is the real boss cause they tell us where to go. Or maybe passengers are the real boss cause they pay us all.

Lear is right. We all depend on each other and none of us can do our piece of the operation without the other pieces.

With that said, would you be willing to wager on a ten person team IQ challenge between pilots and mechanics? I'm not saying there are no "less than genius" pilots or "no super smart" mechanics...but on a whole, averaged out I'd be willing to bet the pilot team would win 10 out of 10 times.

Mechanics are great, they perform a job that is very important and requies skill and attention to detail. But so does a ramper. At least you have a license and are accountable for your work.

No mechanic has ever been sentenced to death for screwing up their job (and they do screw it up...often)...pilots, on the other hand, have been sentenced to death for mechanics screwing up their job.

Do we make more money? I don't know, but we should.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Great post.

Really? So I guess that makes dispatch the real boss cause they tell us where to go. Or maybe ATC is the real boss cause they tell us where to go. Or maybe passengers are the real boss cause they pay us all.

You're mixing apple and oranges. Your comment makes no sense.

With that said, would you be willing to wager on a ten person team IQ challenge between pilots and mechanics? I'm not saying there are no "less than genius" pilots or "no super smart" mechanics...but on a whole, averaged out I'd be willing to bet the pilot team would win 10 out of 10 times.

This is ridiculous. I suppose you think men are smarter than women too, as well as Whites smarter than African Americans and Germans smarter than Poles. Are you a Nazi or what? They all all equal as a matter of fact.

No mechanic has ever been sentenced to death for screwing up their job (and they do screw it up...often)...pilots, on the other hand, have been sentenced to death for mechanics screwing up their job.

Do we make more money? I don't know, but we should.

Another ridiculous comment. By your reasoning all flight attendants should be paid the same as pilots. The fact is people are paid for their worth in terms of supply and demand. Many people have more dangerous jobs than pilots yet they are oftentimes paid less. Risk really has very little to do with pay. Again, it's just supply and demand.

 

[glasspilot]

Did I ever say we were paid more due to more risk? No. It just happened to be the next paragraph. I even separated it with a space to make it more apparent.

As far as whites smarter than blacks and men smarter than women nonsense that you spoke of: I didn't say or do I believe any of that. You said it, so the seeds of that line of logic must be present with you...not me.

I'm here to tell you that I've been an electronic technician, chasing electrons through a schematic to find a faulty IC chip or diode or whatever and also fixed the mechanical systems like heat exchangers and cooling units to keep those electrons cool. Being a pilot is much harder by contrast.

Fixing the equipment requires following the manual. Putting a specified part in a specified place in a specified way. It's all spelled out. Being a pilot requires doing exactly that too, but we also have to be able to go outside the box to search for a solution that has no published answer to get the job done. Plus, we can seldom go consult, call a manufacturer, supervisor or whoever. We are there and have to get the job done by ourselves with very little help from the outside. You have all the help and support that you want from everyone from your supervisor to the manufacturer if needed to figure out how to make it happen.

That's why we make more. Not because we write up your work orders.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

That's why we make more. Not because we write up your work orders.

You seem to think I am a professional mechanic. I never said that so I assume you think that simply because I have chosen to defend the mechanics. The fact is that I have 42 years in aviation as a full time pilot and a few yeas as a part time mechanic. Yes, I know how easy it is to be a pilot and how much fun it is too. Yes, I also know how hard it is to be a mechanic. I know the demands of each job. I have no interest in being a mechanic because their work is very difficult physically as well as mentally, to say nothing of the pressures of knowing that oversights in AD research or mistakes by prior mechanics can result in a total loss of their careers as well as law suits and then having the FAA trying to crucify them. The fact is that a mechanic can do everything to the best of any human's ability and there are still going to be errors that could be found in the records showing that something wasn't done properly or was omitted. Every mechanic knows this but they still live with this reality.

So the bottom line is that I choose the easier job of being a pilot. And yes, that means I have the greatest of respect for those who choose to be aircraft mechanics. God less the mechanics and the pilots too.

 

[pipejockey]

And his point about a 4 year degree being inconsequential to the development of a pilot, he is absolutely correct. Hiring concerns for a major airline are a totally tangential argument.

May I ask if having a 4 year degree is also inconsequential to the development of a mechanic? And also, what do you think the chances are of getting hired by a Major Airline without a 4 year degree? I'd say less than 10%. And as I said before, if you were to poll everybody who got into this profession as to what their career goal would ultimately be, over 90% would tell you that they would want to be at a Major Airline. So tangential or not, pilots NEED a 4 year degree to meet their initial career goals, while a mechanic does not.

Avbug is a knowledgable person, with a broad skill set and is a good mechanic, and an experienced pilot too.

I bet there is a good chance he may have even given Barrack that fancy haircut too!

 

[pipejockey]

Aircraft mechanics are the most under-appreciated FAA certificate holders. They should be paid the most for their skill and responsibility but are usually paid the least.

Instead of bickering back and forth over nickel and dimes, why doesn't everybody direct their rage at the REAL criminals! Upper management and those in the executive offices. They are blood suckers, no different than a common leach. They all get rich off the backs of labor which includes pilots and mechanics as well. Those trolls ought to have their compensation packages reduced by 50% and bonuses ended! After all, our pensions were all ended and we took 50% pay cuts. In the 1970's the average CEO was compensated 40 times greater than his average labor, now he is compensated 400 times. Why?? Because we have let it happen! Their jobs aren't so much more difficult today while ours are so much easier are they?

And for all you supply and demand slaves out there, back in the 70's you actually had to attend a place of higher learning, whose acceptance standards were much greater back then resulting in fewer people with BA's and MBA's than we have today. Now with all the online degree programs, people with BA's and MBA's are a dime a dozen. Just log on to your computer, and from the comfort of your own home, some time later out comes a cookie cutter degree.

This is because the pilot is in the position to give the work orders. After a flight it is the pilot who writes up the maintenance discrepancies in the log. That makes him the boss since he/she gives the orders, so to speak. It isn't fair but that's just the way things work out. but even then since pilots are always in the position of giving the orders, pilots will maintain a higher position in terms of the pecking order. And it is the pecking order that usually determines pay.

So why would anyone become a mechanic compared to being a pilot when it is the pilot who gets all the glory, the girls and the pay?

Year 2010, I would like to introduce you to year 1975! Isn't she a beauty? You don't see years like 1975 anymore do you 2010?

What did you say 2010? Oh of course!! Well who wouldn't want to get a piece of a** like 1975, they just don't make em' like her anymore!

 

[avbug]

I bet there is a good chance he may have even given Barrack that fancy haircut too!

Wow: you really never run out of witty, intellectual comments that uplift and contribute to the thread, do you? From physical threats to haircuts, wild guesses and outright lies, you're leading the pack in the lack-of-credibility department.

You are not smart and I'm done with this.

Apparently when you say "I'm done with this," you really mean "I'm done with this, but not really done with this." You're not actually done with this, are you?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Year 2010, I would like to introduce you to year 1975! Isn't she a beauty? You don't see years like 1975 anymore do you 2010?

What did you say 2010? Oh of course!! Well who wouldn't want to get a piece of a** like 1975, they just don't make em' like her anymore!

Pipejockey: What is the relevance of this comment? Yes, 1975 is different than 2010. So what?

 

[lineflyer1]

That's a very good answer.
---
Regarding the general theme of the rest of your post:
You're correct that A&P's can work on any type of plane. I think common sense dictates that the A&P should receive training on significantly different types, however. You would know better than I, though.

I also think that a type is required because a pilot cannot pull over and consult a manual in the same way an A&P can stop working and consult diagrams. I appreciate the work A&P's do. It's vital to the industry. But to insinuate that A&P's are "better" than pilots is just a waste of time. The work both do is not hard. It may be time consuming, but it's not intellectually taxing.

I know a few A&P's who should never become pilots (just as we probably both know a few pilots who should stay away from a MX hangar!).

Hey AVBUG,

I support you 110%! I too know both sides of the fence also. I am an airline pilot and I was an A&P working in line maintenance for 13 years.

ACpilot, I know of mechanics that should stay away from the hangar as well! But then again I know pilots that should not be allowed near airplanes too.

Pilots do have a manual. It is called the QRH. Pilot has a problem, pull out the QRH. Step by step on how to deal with it. Are some problems not there? Sure, thats what the radio and maintenance control is for. Are some problems so urgent that there is no time to talk or open a book? Sure but those are very rare.

All these arguments are absurd.

Both have the responsibility of ensuring the airplane gets from point A to B safely. It's the safety of the airplane that matters, then the safety of the passsengers is a byproduct of that.

A pilot's level responsibilty does not change with passenger count, a pilots responsibility is to get the airplane from A-B safely! Period.

I have seen pilots argue that if they make a mistake, people die! Pilots make mistakes all the time and nobody dies from them or even gets injured. Can pilots make a mistake that kills people? Yes and they do! Pilot error is the most common cause of crashes.

Can a mechanic make a mistake that kills a plane load of people? Yes and they do. I don't know which would be worse, to be the dead pilot on the airplane or the mechanic who now has to deal with the fact that he killed a plane load of people and now has to deal with the depression that would bring or possibly end up dead just like the pilot on the plane.

By the way, have any of you heard about the Air France Concorde crash? Guess what, the mechanics are on trial who worked on the CAL airplane part that fell off and caused the crash. Mechanics are starting to held liable just like pilots.

Can a pilot do things to an airplane that make a mechanic has to deal with? Certainly! Can a mechanic screw up and do things to an airplane that the pilot has to deal with? Certainly!

I know pilots who are idiots, I know mechanics who are idiots.

Lets face it, one can get the qualifications to be an airline pilot in 1 year start to finish. A 4 year college degreee is not required. An A&P, two years.

It takes many years for a mechanic to become good, decades to become excellent. It takes a pilot a whole lot less time to become good or excellent.

In the end we are all jointly responsible for the safety of the aircraft. Flight attendant,dispatcher, baggage handler, mechanic, pilot. For anyone person to devalue the important part that any one of us play is just arrogant.

I know flight attendants that earn more than mechanics, I know mechanics that earn more than pilots. So ya'll quit your bitchn and become a flight attendant!

Face it, this industry is screwed up. Corportate America is screwed up and values nothing except the bottom line.

Lebron James is paid millions of dollars a year, not because of the responsibilty he bears, but because ot the revenue his skill can generate.

We are no different, we are paid what management believes our skills are worth. The trouble is management has gotten us to believe over the years that our skills are worth so little and none of us are willing to stop working and show them how much our skills are actually worth.

 

[nickgutnick]

This is a fun intereweb sword fight, isn't it? You people need to relax. Quit taking yourselves so seriously..............btw, my skills are apparently worth more than the pilots at my airline....nanna nanna boo boo

 

[no1pilot2000]

I am considering becoming an aircraft mechanic. What skills/aptitudes (tecnical and or mechanical)/academic skills (math, science, etc.) does a person need proficient to become an aircraft mechanic. Can anyone recommend a A&P school in the Mid Atlantic area?

 

[glasspilot]

I'm sorry, when I said "done with this" I just meant done with the back and forth with you.

 

[pipejockey]

Wow: you really never run out of witty, intellectual comments that uplift and contribute to the thread, do you? From physical threats to haircuts, wild guesses and outright lies, you're leading the pack in the lack-of-credibility department.

Physical threats? What the h*ll are you talking about? Are you referring to my witty comment to another poster about looking out his window? You need to get a sense of humor, or at least laid. With your attitude, it has probably been some time ago, if ever!

Apparently when you say "I'm done with this," you really mean "I'm done with this, but not really done with this." You're not actually done with this, are you?

Do you not know how to use the quoting function, so that people can identify the poster you are quoting? You mix some things that I have said, with things others have said. I have never said that I am done with this. What else is there to do while I watch the American Century Championship?

Face it, this industry is screwed up. Corportate America is screwed up and values nothing except the bottom line.

Lebron James is paid millions of dollars a year, not because of the responsibilty he bears, but because ot the revenue his skill can generate.

We are no different, we are paid what management believes our skills are worth. The trouble is management has gotten us to believe over the years that our skills are worth so little and none of us are willing to stop working and show them how much our skills are actually worth.

As much as I disagree with most of your post to this point, the last 3 three paragraphs make the best sense of anything posted on this thread to this point.

 

[pipejockey]

Pipejockey: What is the relevance of this comment? Yes, 1975 is different than 2010. So what?

Undaunted, do you really not see the point I was trying to make? Look at all the bold points below. Back in 1975, those bold points may have been true. In 2010, it is as far away from the truth as can be. ANY pilot will tell you so. Plus all of the women who have rejected the modern day pilot due to the LACK of pay, status, and glory. Our pecking order is about as low as it goes. I mean come on, we are not even trusted to let ourselves down to the aircraft by ourselves. We have to do a carpet dance in front of the almighty gate agent in full view of the public, just to be ALLOWED to our aircraft. It doesn't get any lower than that. We can't even show up to work like all the other employee groups without having to go through security, to make sure us untrustworthy, and lowly pilots don't try to get through security with a banned item.

This is because the pilot is in the position to give the work orders. After a flight it is the pilot who writes up the maintenance discrepancies in the log. That makes him the boss since he/she gives the orders, so to speak. It isn't fair but that's just the way things work out. but even then since pilots are always in the position of giving the orders, pilots will maintain a higher position in terms of the pecking order. And it is the pecking order that usually determines pay.

So why would anyone become a mechanic compared to being a pilot when it is the pilot who gets all the glory, the girls and the pay?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Pipejockey: Yep, you're right about that, pilot prestige has changed a lot since 1975. But I can tell that you're looking from the inside out. To be honest, from the outside in, pilots are still in high regard (except by the FA's). Didn't you see the "Bachelor?" All those girls thought he was next to a God.

Regarding the mechanics and pilots: There always is this undeserved pecking order of pilots above mechanics. This is unfair but as I've posted earlier, that's just the way things are. It's less so in the airlines but more so in the corporate world and totally so in the military.

 

[avbug]

I have never said that I am done with this.

I wasn't talking to you. Your arrogance knows no end. Glasspilot said she's done, but couldn't stay away.

 

[Lear70]

It has been brought to my attention that, in the midst of everything I have going on, that I didn't remember the name Tim Martins from the ALPA article and later crucifying of the same person for their misrepresentations... Evidently I need to pay more attention to current events. Sorry, Pipe. :0

Sorry for the thread hijack, we now return you to your regularly scheduled FI mud slinging...

I am considering becoming an aircraft mechanic. What skills/aptitudes (tecnical and or mechanical)/academic skills (math, science, etc.) does a person need proficient to become an aircraft mechanic. Can anyone recommend a A&P school in the Mid Atlantic area?

WRONG thread to ask a serious question in. PM some of the people on here who are posting in support of the mechanics or have A&P listed on their profile, you'll probably get a lot more serious responses.

This whole thread is ridiculous... if I had it to do over again (besides probably going to med school instead of flying), I'd have majored in maintenance and obtained my A&P and I/A in college and taken all the aerodynamics classes and such in addition to the mx curriculum. Getting your A&P these days is nearly impossible unless you go to school full-time. The "window" for accumulating the required hours has screwed those of us who were slowly building them over time while working on our own planes under the observation of an A&P.

Not that I want to work on airplanes for a living, I prefer to fly, but the only real difference in a mechanic versus a pilot is that pilots have only a few seconds in many cases to make a life-or-death decision. Inattention to detail by either mechanic OR pilot puts lives at risk. Their work is just as important as ours. Period.

In my opinion, the only reason we're paid more than mechanics is that we spend over half our lives away from our homes and families. That time away, not getting to have dinner, be there for just about every game or homecoming, tucking them in at night, home on the holidays, all has to be compensated for somehow; it's compensated for by increased pay. Other than that, there's no greater requirement for pilots than mechanics in a company's operational needs - you gotta have both.

So why are we bickering about this again...? :no:

 

[lineflyer1]

To be honest, from the outside in, pilots are still in high regard (except by the FA's). Didn't you see the "Bachelor?" All those girls thought he was next to a God.

And then they found out he was just an arrogant dick!

 

[Talian]

You and I both know that most pilot fatalities are at the hands of pilots themselves. Pilot error remains the primary cause of fatalities in aircraft of all types. The most dangerous thing in the airplane continues to be the pilot.

As for some idiotic argument about who dies at who's hands...pilots killing mechanics and mechanics killing pilots, I'll leave that to the mentality of a fourteen year old mind to sort out. It's stupidity, and you know it.

If you want an apples to apples comparison, and it appears you do, then look at how many mechanics are injured on the job, and how many pilots are injured on the job.

I happen to come from a background that sees far, far more pilots injured or killed on the job than you'll likely ever know or see in your lifetime; a disproportionate number of the working community than nearly any other (including pilots in combat). I've had two airplanes I flew lose wings in flight, killing all on board, in fact. I wasn't on board either at the time, obviously, but neither were pilots dying at the hands of pilots. Both were losses of pilots under unfortunate circumstances. I ended up on a hillside in the middle of an active wildfire myself, following an engine failure. I certainly know and comprehend the hazards.

Conversely, I've been cut, burned, broken, drilled, poisoned, and otherwise injured on the job while working on airplanes.

Then again, I've had to actively restrain pilots in flight when they attempted to shut down the wrong powerplant and other occasions involving poor judgement or inaction. Pilots attempting to kill pilots. Go figure. I've caught mechanics in errors, as well, and I've seen mechanics make errors that could have killed other mechanics.

None of your diatribe here addresses the fact that there's no pilot shortage, and no mechanic shortage.



Not at all.

You fly an airplane, you sign for what you do and what you get in real time, as it happens, and nothing more. I work on an airplane and sign it off as airworthy, especially regarding an inspection, and I take responsibility for everything that's been done to that airplane since it was built. The liability in maintenance is substantially greater than in flying.

Remember, I do both. I've been flying professionally for a lifetime, as well as working on aircraft professionally for the same. I've got a fairly good perspective on both, and flying is kids play compared to maintenance. It really is.

Most pilots wouldn't agree, but most pilots don't have any concept about the "other side of the coin." It would appear that you're one of them.



That's a fairly arrogant viewpoint, and an incorrect one, as well.

When I work on an airplane, I have no concern whether you ever get in it, much less fly it. I work on it because I'm paid to do so, and I do it to the standards provided by the FAA, the manufacturer, and industry standards, without any concern for you. None at all.



Yes. Let's say you're type rated in one airplane. Your scope of capability and responsibility extends to that one airplane. Let's say you hold a commercial airplane single engine land, with an ATP multi engine land and that one type. You can fly lots of little single and multi engine small airplanes, and have a single privilege in one large airplane. That's it. That's the scope of your usefulness.

The mechanic, on the other hand, is useful for, and able to legally work on any aircraft; any balloon, any helicopter, any glider, any airplane.

The mechanic isn't at all like the garbageman, who doesn't have to sign for his garbage, doesn't have to take the responsibility or liability for it, and who isn't federally certified to take that responsibility. Moreover, the garbageman isn't qualified to fly, or work on aircraft, and therefore the example is pointless and irrelevant.

As the pilot with that one type, you're very limited in your qualification and capability. As the mechanic with the most basic certification and two ratings...airframe and powerplant, working on any aircraft is a possibility. Not worrying about working on one single type...but all, everything. Translated in comparison to pilot certification, being a mechanic is equivilent to being a pilot certified to fly everything...all type ratings, all categories, all classes, all certifications.

Flying is a simple endeavor in comparison to maintaining an aircraft.

Avbug is right on again. Maybe one day some of these people will step back rather than be schooled by you. I find your responses excellent.

 

[glasspilot]

Avbug is right on again. Maybe one day some of these people will step back rather than be schooled by you. I find your responses excellent.

Oh, well then. I guess this is all summed up. Sorry for being so wron...

Wait a minute! You're Jedi mind trick won't work on me. Just because you say he's right doesn't make him right. Mechanics are not "better" than pilots because their special training (that's sooo hard that no pilot could possibly complete it) allows them to work on every aircraft in the world from hotair balloon to space shuttle.

No, I submit that mechanics are not better than pilots. Notice I've never said pilots are better either. But no way am I gonna sit by while you all trounce pilots because we have type ratings. The argument that type ratings are proof that pilots are dumb is in itself a dumb argument.

Avbug may have an impressive resume, I don't know. He sure posts a lot and others, including a mod, have vouched for him, but regardless...his attitude towards pilots makes me want to puke. (ya, I know he's a pilot too. He's gone on and on about how dangerous and great his missions are). Why he leans towards the mechanic side of the house probably has something to do with his upbringing. Maybe his dad included him while working on the family car or an uncle had a garage and had him help out. I don't know. But for what ever reason he firmly believes mechanics are better people with better cognitive skills than pilots and I say Bull Honkey!

Mechanics are mechanics and pilots are pilots. I've done both too and being a pilot has, in my opinion, way more responsibility and required skill. That's my opinion and I would never share it with you all except in defense of an all out attack from the mechanic side saying the opposite.

Fly Safe and Wrench Wright,

gp