Is there really a shortage of Mechanics too?

[glasspilot]

You are not smart and I'm done with this.

Keep thinking mechanics are not typed rated to work on specific aircraft because they are so smart and those stupid pilot, who must be dumb, have to be trained on specific equipment.

Keep thinking your little boo boos on the job are a bigger deal and offer more risk then the pilots who climb in FLY the plane.

Keep thinking you have more training for a job that anyone in any health can do then mine.

And reading back I did drone on too much about pilots killing and getting killed or whatever, but the point remains; I carry the risk for BOTH of our mistakes. You do not.

Respond, I'll read it, you can have the last word if you want but I'm done. I made my point, any 3 year old can grasp it and I have to go to work.

gp

 

[avbug]

You are not smart and I'm done with this.

Very intellectual. When that's all you've got, I guess that's all you've got. Nice try, though.

Keep thinking mechanics are not typed rated to work on specific aircraft because they are so smart and those stupid pilot, who must be dumb, have to be trained on specific equipment.

Do you realize you sound like a 14 year old? I've said nothing about pilots or mechanics being "smart" or "dumb." This is something you've dreamed up and introduced. Of course you're done with this, because you're arguing points which were never made...and exceedingly stupid ones, at that.

Keep thinking your little boo boos on the job are a bigger deal and offer more risk then the pilots who climb in FLY the plane.

I said nothing of the kind; put words in your own mouth, and not mine.

My little "boo-boos," you say? Setting aside that nobody over 2 years old says such things, you do realize that I'm the guy that flies the airplane, right? Do you have any concept of what it means to face risk in flight? None of this point to point, IFR, auto-pilot on flying...but flying which operates in a true, hazardous environment? I do...and as I stated before, it's not the mechanics which are the threat there. It's the pilots. The most dangerous component in the cockpit has always been, and continues to be, the pilot.

Keep thinking you have more training for a job that anyone in any health can do then mine.

Again, this is something you've dreamed up.

It's "than mine," and you do understand that I do the same job, right? I'm a pilot as well; an active, ATP-certificated pilot with almost certainly far more certification and experience than you. I also have the advantage of a long background as a mechanic and inspector, and not only can I do "your job" very well, but I can do something that perhaps you can't: work on the airplanes and execute the paperwork necessary to return them to service. Can you do that? Do you have the tools, training, experience, and certification to do that?

I carry the risk for BOTH of our mistakes. You do not.

I don't? As an active professional pilot, I don't? As an active, long-term mechanic and inspector, I don't? You really have no clue whence you speak.

In fact, as previously noted, and perhaps beyond your clearly limited capacity for reason, a mechanic takes on the liability for all actions by mechanics who have previously worked on the airplane, beginning from the time the airplane was first created, when signing for the airworthiness of the airplane. A pilot takes on his single, sole flight. The pilot's liability on that flight begins when the airplane moves under it's own power at the start of the flight, and it ends when the airplane comes to a rest at the end of a flight. The mechanic's liability goes back to the time the airpalne was created, and continues until the work is repeated or superceded by another mechanic.

The pilot's certificate is on the line during the time he or she operates the airplane from A to B, and then that liability ends. The mechanic, not so much. The mechanic's work remains under scrutiny long after he's done with the work, as does his liability. The degree of technicality, precision, and accuracy to which the mechanic must work is far more critical than that to which the pilot must work. A pilot operates within parameters such as a hundred feet, within 10 knots, within a dot. A mechanic operates within tolerances such as thousandths of an inch, inch-pounds of torque, and milivolts.

I made my point, any 3 year old can grasp it and I have to go to work.

A three-year-old can grasp it because it's written and thought-out on the level of a three-year-old. You're upset, and you've thrown a tantrum because you feel like "your job" has been slighted. You feel threatened. You're clearly insecure about your position, and the work you do. You're entitled to that.

You do understand that this is a maintenance forum, discussing maintenance topics, in particular the topic of a mechanic shortage, don't you? Perhaps your vast talents and excessive training would best be served some place else...where you're actually qualified to comment.

 

[acpilot]

When I work on an airplane, I have no concern whether you ever get in it, much less fly it. I work on it because I'm paid to do so, and I do it to the standards provided by the FAA, the manufacturer, and industry standards, without any concern for you. None at all.

That's a very good answer.
---
Regarding the general theme of the rest of your post:
You're correct that A&P's can work on any type of plane. I think common sense dictates that the A&P should receive training on significantly different types, however. You would know better than I, though.

I also think that a type is required because a pilot cannot pull over and consult a manual in the same way an A&P can stop working and consult diagrams. I appreciate the work A&P's do. It's vital to the industry. But to insinuate that A&P's are "better" than pilots is just a waste of time. The work both do is not hard. It may be time consuming, but it's not intellectually taxing.

I know a few A&P's who should never become pilots (just as we probably both know a few pilots who should stay away from a MX hangar!).

 

[avbug]

But to insinuate that A&P's are "better" than pilots is just a waste of time.

No one has insinuated any such thing here; least all, me.

The work both do is not hard. It may be time consuming, but it's not intellectually taxing.

I don't know anyone who has done single pilot IFR in a busy environment who would suggest it's easy or a walk in the park. Likewise, anyone who's done much sheet metal work, composite work, or balanced a turbine wheel, or performed complex wiring and electrical work most certainly doesn't have it easy. The work can be quite taxing, intellectually. It can be quite demanding physically. I've had flights after which I couldn't get out of the cockpit for 45 minutes because I couldn't use my legs, and in which the sweat poured from under my helmet. I've been completely soaked through with sweat, with tired arms and legs after some operations.

Not all the work a pilot or mechanic does is hard, but some of it certainly is. Not all of it is intellectually taxing, but some of it most certainly is.

 

[acpilot]

Regarding the single pilot in IMC thing...

At times it can be challenging...but that's why it's fun! It should generally be uneventful and unremarkable for a competent pilot, though.

 

[nickgutnick]

The work both do is not hard. It may be time consuming, but it's not intellectually taxing.

Really.......what an odd thing to say. So you're saying we are all a bunch of goobers in coveralls?

 

[acpilot]

Really.......what an odd thing to say. So you're saying we are all a bunch of goobers in coveralls?

Absolutely not! If that's what I meant to say, I would have said it.

 

[pipejockey]

A four year degree is irrelevant, and is inconsequential to pilot training. A four year degree has no more bearing on obtaining an FAA certificate for a pilot than it does to a mechanic obtaining FAA certification.

Obviously this avbug guy has no respect for pilots. You need to educate yourself on a few things before making such outrageous statements. 96% of Legacy Carrier pilots have 4 year degrees. It is highly unlikely one will be hired by a Legacy without one. So while it may not have any bearing on pilot training or obtaining an FAA certificate, it has every bearing in the world on obtaining a job at a Legacy, which is where most all of us set our sights when getting involved in this profession. Delta even has it listed as a requirement. Those in charge of hiring are not going to bother hiring someone without a 4 year degree when they have tons of applicants WITH a 4 year degree. Thus making it necessary for us all to have one.

Far Far less than 96% of mechanics have 4 year degrees, making it truly irrelevant in that profession.

A pilot may fly one type of large, complex airplane, with a type rating, whereas a mechanic may work on dozens without any such restrictions...and is expected to be capable and able. A pilot is relieved of this expectation with the simple requisite that he or she must first obtain type specific training.

A mechanic works on an aircraft that is shut down at the gate or in the hangar with all the time in the world to work on the particular system and peruse through the manuals to make sure things are done right. A pilot must sometimes make split second decisions with the aircraft moving at a very high rate of speed either on the ground or in flight and can't have the specifics of several different aircraft floating around in his mind. Therefore in the interest of safety, we learn the particular aircraft we actually operate in real world conditions with a bunch of people in the back whose lives depend on us. If a mechanic proceeds to screw something up, and it bites us in flight, pilots are generally able to overcome the mistake due to the redundancy in the systems, albeit with a lot of work.

A pilot, when flying an airplane, is not responsible for the flights performed by other pilots on previous flights. A mechanic performing an inspection, however, buys the entire history of the airplane with his or her signature. That includes the responsibility for certifying that all previous work is in order and correct.

So what?? You look at what is required on the particular inspection, and if it is still within parameters, you give it the ok and sign it off. What's the big deal? And a pilot WILL be thrown under the bus if they take an aircraft that a mechanic "forgot" to sign off or implemented an MEL incorrectly etc.

Pilots incur considerably less liability.

I can't believe what I'm reading here. We put our license on the line at the very least, every time we arrive at the aircraft. Try making a simple mistake like a busted altitude that results in a loss of separation, a simple dumb thumbs mistake programming the FMS resulting in the aircraft proceeding to the wrong fix resulting in a loss of separation, etc etc, and voila, no more license and no more job. Not to mention the litany of more serious mistakes that can cause loss of life or limb.

I've been working commercially as a pilot since I was a teenager, which was some time ago, now.

So why do you have so little respect for pilots then? But I bet you'd welcome the CEO with open arms and give him a big hug and thank him for all the important work he does for the bargain price of "insert some denomination in the many millions".

Pilots are a dime a dozen. Only about 10% of the pilots out there are worth their weight in salt. I'd rather spend my time with a group of mechanics, than pilots, given the choice. The requirements to be a pilot tend to pale overall in comparison to that of a mechanic.

Thanks! I have the utmost respect for you as well. And most of the mechanics I see at my company barely have command of the English language let alone the professionalism required to be in view of the public.

Cute, but nonsensical. What's left, you ask? Do you mean to say that a pilot who has been furloughed, downgraded, lost his medical, violated, failed a check ride, terminated, or killed can turn to being a mechanic? Not without taking considerably more training than it took to be the pilot, and not without a considerably greater investment in effort and time than it took to learn to fly.

Not according to the A&P's I sometimes fly with. So if a mechanic got furloughed and wanted to become a pilot, it would be a cake walk? Half of the mechanics around today wouldn't get through flight training.

 

[pipejockey]

As the pilot with that one type, you're very limited in your qualification and capability. As the mechanic with the most basic certification and two ratings...airframe and powerplant, working on any aircraft is a possibility. Not worrying about working on one single type...but all, everything. Translated in comparison to pilot certification, being a mechanic is equivilent to being a pilot certified to fly everything...all type ratings, all categories, all classes, all certifications.

If you really are a pilot, then you would realize that in order to be trained to Part 121 airline standards, there would be no way anyone without a photographic memory could possibly remember all of the different limitations, different profiles, different memory items, and different procedures of all of an airlines equipment types. See, these are things a pilot must know cold, without the luxury of referencing a handy mx manual.

When I work on an airplane, I have no concern whether you ever get in it, much less fly it. I work on it because I'm paid to do so, and I do it to the standards provided by the FAA, the manufacturer, and industry standards, without any concern for you. None at all.

What an arrogant, pompous a** pri*k this guy is! Just doing things to standards without any regards to peoples safety. I'd love to know what airline this clown works for because I would not let anyone I know get on any of their aircraft. And I would direct them to this guys statement about not having any concern for ones safety. This guy is a loose cannon waiting to snap. Such contempt for another group of professionals he has to work with. This is the kind of guy you expect to hear about walking in to work with armed to the hilt with assault weapons and taking as many of his co-workers out as he can. His first stop would no doubt be the pilots crew room. How sad for this guy.

 

[avbug]

Obviously this avbug guy has no respect for pilots.

Certainly not folks such as yourself; that's for certain.

You need to educate yourself on a few things before making such outrageous statements. 96% of Legacy Carrier pilots have 4 year degrees. It is highly unlikely one will be hired by a Legacy without one. So while it may not have any bearing on pilot training or obtaining an FAA certificate, it has every bearing in the world on obtaining a job at a Legacy, which is where most all of us set our sights when getting involved in this profession.

Far Far less than 96% of mechanics have 4 year degrees, making it truly irrelevant in that profession.

The absolute arrogance of you, in assuming that everyone wants to fly for a legacy carrier, or that such positions represent the bulk of pilot positions out there! Utter claptrap.

Your degree didn't help your comprehension any, as you failed to read what I wrote. I stated correctly that a degree has no bearing on obtaining an FAA certificate.

You want to educate me, do you? My flying experience includes international large four engine turbojet operations through single engine seaplane flying. How about yours?

Then again, can you legally repair an aircraft, perform modifications, or sign off an inspection and approve an airframe or powerplant for return to service? Or do you merely fly? I do both. You?

A degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. It may be a preferred attribute when applying at Delta...but who really cares? It's irrelevant to the subject at hand.

A mechanic works on an aircraft that is shut down at the gate or in the hangar with all the time in the world to work on the particular system and peruse through the manuals to make sure things are done right.

That's one of the duties we do. But only a part, and for your very limited information, I've done plenty of work under pressure ranging from combat conditions to operations in flight, as a mechanic and inspector. You?

A pilot must sometimes make split second decisions with the aircraft moving at a very high rate of speed either on the ground or in flight and can't have the specifics of several different aircraft floating around in his mind.

Get off your high horse there, brightspark. You fly instrument procedures in a very controlled environment. How much of your career have you spent performing high-pressure, in-flight emergency operations in a high risk environment? I've done it a great deal of mine...as a pilot...and your casual, sheltered view doesn't hold much water.

You look at what is required on the particular inspection, and if it is still within parameters, you give it the ok and sign it off. What's the big deal?

Your uneducated and uninformed view is a good reason why people like you shouldn't be working on aircraft.

We put our license on the line at the very least, every time we arrive at the aircraft.

When a pilot operates an aircraft, the pilot is responsible for his or her work in real time, for the duration of the flight, and nothing more.

When a mechanic signs off an aircraft, the mechanic is responsible for everything that's been done to that aircraft, and for the work done by everyone who did it.

Big, big difference there, mate. Big difference. Liability as a pilot doesn't come remotely close to that of a mechanic in detail or in scope.

So why do you have so little respect for pilots then?

So few deserve it, and so few earn it. You've failed in that measure, as well.

And most of the mechanics I see at my company barely have command of the English language let alone the professionalism required to be in view of the public.

You've clearly got a prejudiced, uneducated, rather ignorant and biased view of the maintenance community. Certainly no understanding, thereof. Perhaps you need to work for a better company. It would appear that you're not one of those special legacy pilots, then? How unfortunate for you.

So if a mechanic got furloughed and wanted to become a pilot, it would be a cake walk?

What has that to do with the price of tea in China?

A mechanic who desires to be a pilot needs only undertake the same flight training that anyone undertakes. Such training is available at an unending number of sources. For a scant 250 hours of flying, one walks away with a commercial certificate, as a teacher of other pilots, ready to take on the world.

Half of the mechanics around today wouldn't get through flight training.

You base this statistic on published, reliable numbers, do you? No? You have no credibility. You're inventing statistics, which is therefore, a lie. this is how you present your point, by lying? This isn't surprising. Do you base your statistics upon having instructed half the mechanics around today? Of course you haven't, and to suggest you have would be...a lie. Why not be honest, instead?

If you really are a pilot, then you would realize that in order to be trained to Part 121 airline standards, there would be no way anyone without a photographic memory could possibly remember all of the different limitations, different profiles, different memory items, and different procedures of all of an airlines equipment types. See, these are things a pilot must know cold, without the luxury of referencing a handy mx manual.

You have an overinflated view of your job, or perhaps merely find it too difficult. You might wish to consider a different profession.

And I would direct them to this guys statement about not having any concern for ones safety.

That four year degree of yours isn't doing you much good. Your comprehension is still hovering right around 0%.

For starters, put words in your own mouth...not mine. I said nothing about having no concern for anyone's safety. Do you do this poorly at understanding everything you read, or are you merely selective in your failings?

I have zero concern regarding whether you get in an airplane upon which I work. None. I couldn't care less if you sit in your car, or go watch a movie. I'm not paid by help you into the pilot's seat, I'm not paid to care about you, or be concerned in the least about your feelings, attitude, or performance. Merely to perform the job to which I'm assigned.

At the moment, that job is acting in the capacity of professional ATP pilot...operating internationally. I don't spend my time lounging about crew rooms, whining about maintenance. I do my job, and move on.

I understand you may feel inadequate, given your obvious limitations in capability, to say nothing of certification, but it shouldn't jade your views. merely because you're less qualified than others doesn't diminish your worth as a person. Your credibility is at rock bottom and you're inventing lies to support your point, and you clearly have a comprehension problem and a very poor grasp of the maintenance industry, but don't let that for one moment make you feel any less adequate than you already are. That wouldn't be very good, though it wouldn't be very hard. You should hang onto what you have, and perhaps one day you'll be qualified and experienced enough to properly address the subject.

 

[pipejockey]

Certainly not folks such as yourself; that's for certain.

The absolute arrogance of you, in assuming that everyone wants to fly for a legacy carrier, or that such positions represent the bulk of pilot positions out there! Utter claptrap. Your degree didn't help your comprehension any, as you failed to read what I wrote.

And that GED of yours didn't help your comprehension any, as you clearly failed to read what I wrote. I didn't say EVERYONE wants to work for a Legacy, I said a Legacy is where MOST all of us set our sights when getting involved in this profession.

You want to educate me, do you? My flying experience includes international large four engine turbojet operations through single engine seaplane flying. can you legally repair an aircraft, perform modifications, or sign off an inspection and approve an airframe or powerplant for return to service? I do both. I've done plenty of work under pressure ranging from combat conditions to operations in flight, as a mechanic and inspector. How much of your career have you spent performing high-pressure, in-flight emergency operations in a high risk environment? I've done it a great deal of mine...as a pilot.

TIMAAAAY!!!! Folks, for those of you who have been living in a cave, or have just awakened from a coma, meet Tim Martins!! He has done everything under the sun. If he stares at the sun, it actually extinguishes itself out of fear and self preservation. He is so much more than a mere man, he is immortal.

Your uneducated and uninformed view is a good reason why people like you shouldn't be working on aircraft.

And your anger and contempt at the world, especially pilots, in addition to your mental instability, is why people like you shouldn't be working on aircraft.

You've clearly got a prejudiced, uneducated, rather ignorant and biased view of the maintenance community.

Why? Because I can't understand the accents of half of them? What is the appropriate and politically correct way to explain why I can't understand half of the mechanics as a result of English being a second language for them. Aren't we being a bit paranoid there little guy?

What has that to do with the price of tea in China?

WTF are you babbling about? Calm down and focus there squirt!

A mechanic who desires to be a pilot needs only undertake the same flight training that anyone undertakes. Such training is available at an unending number of sources. For a scant 250 hours of flying, one walks away with a commercial certificate, as a teacher of other pilots, ready to take on the world.

As a teacher of other GA pilots flying light aircraft, and a long way from being competitive for a even a regional airline job these days.

Do you base your statistics upon having instructed half the mechanics around today? Of course you haven't, and to suggest you have would be...a lie. Why not be honest, instead?

Ok you got me! I based my statement on having to instruct half of the mechanics where I work on how to properly MEL an item.

You have an overinflated view of your job, My flying experience includes international large four engine turbojet operations through single engine seaplane flying. can you legally repair an aircraft, perform modifications, or sign off an inspection and approve an airframe or powerplant for return to service? I do both. I've done plenty of work under pressure ranging from combat conditions to operations in flight, as a mechanic and inspector. How much of your career have you spent performing high-pressure, in-flight emergency operations in a high risk environment? I've done it a great deal of mine...as a pilot.

Ummmm, ok, if you say so!:erm:

For starters, put words in your own mouth...not mine. I said nothing about having no concern for anyone's safety.

Really? Then what did you mean by this?

When I work on an airplane, I have no concern whether you ever get in it, much less fly it. I work on it because I'm paid to do so, and I do it to the standards provided by the FAA, the manufacturer, and industry standards, without any concern for you. None at all.

The meaning of the statement "without any concern for you. None at all".
is painfully obvious and the lack of the actual word "safety" is moot. You are merely trying to backtrack and wiggle yourself out of that very dangerous statement you made. The moderators should track you down as you are obviously unstable and have no regard for quite a few people.

 

[avbug]

I said a Legacy is where MOST all of us set our sights when getting involved in this profession.

Ah, you mean most of your ilk. Got it.

Certainly not most of us, meaning pilots. Again, you overvalue your position...but then you don't work for a legacy carrier, do you?

Folks, for those of you who have been living in a cave, or have just awakened from a coma, meet Tim Martins!!

Again, this is a commentary on your own inadequacy, isn't it? You don't have the additional certification, and lack the qualifications, and your inadequacy seems to bother you. This is unfortunate. It shouldn't, you know. More to the point, if you find having some modicum of experience to be extraordinary, it speaks volumes about your own lack of experience, doesn't it?

It does.

Tim Martins is one of your kind. A curtain-climbing legacy wannabe. A regional pilot, dime a dozen, who couldn't tell the truth if he tried. Not even in a national publication. He thought he had the world by the tail, and he thought he knew it all. The world revolved around the airlines, he thought. One or two jobs in his background, and he thought he was experienced.

Perhaps once you've got a few type ratings under your belt and have a little experience, you'll see the world a little differently. That you think a little experience is a fantastic, unbelievable thing doesn't make it so, but is a comical observation of how little you have. You've got a lot to learn.

The meaning of the statement "without any concern for you. None at all".
is painfully obvious and the lack of the actual word "safety" is moot.

Lack of the word "safety" is irrelevant? Hardly. I said nothing about being unconcerned about safety. I'm entirely unconcerned about you.

A poster previously stated that as a mechanic or inspector, my purpose for being is to keep him in his seat. This is an arrogant and very wrong statement. I have no concern for keeping you, or anyone else in your seat. I have no care in the world whether you work another day in your life, ever take off, drink yourself stupid, or die in a gutter somewhere. It's not relevant to my own job description. I do not exist for you. Neither do any of the mechanics at your place of employment exist for you. I don't care how you feel today, what you ate, or if you're able to make your car payments.

As a mechanic, I care about compliance with the technical data for the aircraft on which I work. I care about compliance with regulation. I care about craftsmanship. I don't care about you.

The use of the word "safety" makes a big difference. A single word changes everything, and your attempting to make false statements is in line with your falsification of statistics and your lies thus far. You had no credibility, and have none. You're consistent in your lack of understanding and in your failure to be credible.

Ok you got me!

I know. You lied. Nothing need more be said of you.

 

[pipejockey]

I'm entirely unconcerned about you.
I have no care in the world whether you work another day in your life, ever take off, drink yourself stupid, or die in a gutter somewhere.
I don't care about you.

Please moderators, I urge you to determine this guys identity and report him to the authorities. At least the FAA. This guy has so much anger directed to the pilot group, he is a danger to anyone that gets anywhere near an aircraft he works on or operates. Everyone will be sorry when he busts in with automatic weapons and takes out every pilot he sees.

 

[avbug]

I see you're still inventing things. Careful. You're treading very closely to libel.

If you're going to tell lies, make an effort to see that they're believable. In your case, given your lies thus far, you have a steep road ahead of you.

I've never expressed any anger here, incidentally. You're not quite worthy of contempt, given your lack of credibility.

You've expressed some anger here. Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror. When you're done contaminating the thread, if the remote chance exists that you've anything to contribute, you might make an effort. Thus far, you've failed 100%.

 

[CRJ's suck]

Please moderators, I urge you to determine this guys identity and report him to the authorities. At least the FAA. This guy has so much anger directed to the pilot group, he is a danger to anyone that gets anywhere near an aircraft he works on or operates. Everyone will be sorry when he busts in with automatic weapons and takes out every pilot he sees.

Try reading some of Avbugs 7,500 other posts. He isn't some new, 20 something year old know it all. Is there a chance he is faking all his acquired knowledge? Sure there is, i've never met the guy. Seriously though, who would take the time and effort to write 7,500 posts and be pretty much right on the money in just almost all of them. I highly doubt we need to worry about him anymore than we need to worry about you.

I can say I agree with Avbugs statement of, "As a mechanic, I care about compliance with the technical data for the aircraft on which I work. I care about compliance with regulation. I care about craftsmanship. I don't care about you." When I'm doing my job I don't think about you, the passengers, or anyone else. All I care about is getting it done right. I double check my work for myself and no one else. Some of us do take pride in our jobs and the work we put out. (Disclaimer: I am in no way implying you said "mechanics don't know anything and are dumb and don't care about the their work" or any other variation thereof. It was simply a statement of fact.)

Have a great day everybody.