Im Ready, UNION AT FLEX

[doh]

Why was that important to you? You wanted a target
on your back?

It's importnt that I not be misquoted.

 

[Biker Rob]

Doubt any of that is true so this is a red herring argument. If FJ gets 1108 and your wages and work rules were memorialized or increased and "all is quiet on the western front", reasonable thinkers will find it hard to believe that you would forgo all that just because you don't want be a member of the union.

Dust off your resume and apply to all the non-union carriers in the aviation industry. Oops - there aren't any where you would get what you would have under an 1108 CBA. Of course, many will hope you move along so that you can get out of the way for the people that value themselves and their families more than the investors, the front office, or theoretical capitalism.

1) This is not an argument. I'm just offering my opinion.

2) I don't doubt that it is hard for you or others of similar mind to believe I mean what I say. Some people, and I think you might be one of them, place a high value money. I do not. If coming to work filled me with a sense of dread, whether it was due to a union, bad management or coworkers that where impossible to get along with, I would and will leave. We all spend a lot of time at work. For us that time seems even longer since it is spent away from home family and friends. It's very important to me that time spent at work is as enjoyable as possible. And my personal experience of working under a union was anything but enjoyable.

I'm not saying that unions are 100% bad. I know they effect some positive changes. But at what cost? Seriously, go back over the posts from the guys that are pro union and count how many times they use words like "fight" and "battle". And for you guys directly involved with the union how many hours, days, weeks were spent away from your families while you prepared for the next "battle" with the company management?

That's just not an environment I want to work in. Just my opinion.

 

[Biker Rob]

Realityman,

You bring up some interesting points in post #37, some I agree with some I do not. I would like to respond properly, but it is getting late. I will try to find time tomorrow.

Happy New Year everyone

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

I remember being told by Uncle, in the initial class, that Options pilots would be the best paid in the industry. I know things change, but when the company is bragging about record profits, why are they unwilling to give us a few more crumbs? I don't know anyone that really wants to kill the Golden Goose.

 

[el raton]

I remember being told by Uncle, in the initial class, that Options pilots would be the best paid in the industry. I know things change, but when the company is bragging about record profits, why are they unwilling to give us a few more crumbs? I don't know anyone that really wants to kill the Golden Goose.

You can't receive any extra crumbs until you have a new contract. One of the downsides of a union.

At Flex it's might be risky but we can.

I think growth is going to put a lot of this infighting to bed.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Yes el, we need growth but not just for the sake of creating jobs. They must be viable jobs. As for needing a new contract, the contract can be amended simply with an LOA. And if you consider that one of the downsides of a union, so be it. The alternative is to going back to individual deals for each pilot. I personally will not wear kneepads. What say you?

 

[flexpilot]

Bob,
Not sure what reeducation camp you attended. Unions are as American as apple pie. Unions did get a bad name in the 70's. Blame was placed on the unions for corporate failures.

Please read the wikipedia article on unions. I think you'll find it interesting and unbiased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States

A small excerpt from the article above, "Union membership had been declining in the US since 1954, and since 1967, as union membership rates decreased, middle class incomes shrank correspondingly."

Corporations have kept wages stagnant for the last three decades. Meanwhile the gap between the average American worker and the top 1% is wider than at any other time in our countries history.

Best of luck to my former coworkers at FJ. Wish the union was brought in several years ago.

FP

You... You... You don't.... I'm sorry, its just really hard to type when I'm laughing this hard. You don't really believe that do you?

And to Doh, 1/3 of our 401k was "stolen"? That is so ignorant and wrong its hardly worth acknowledging. Suffice to say its not true.

And to whoever started this thread.... Do you even work for FJ? With all of the misinformation, lies and fear coming form a very vocal minority of FLOPS guys it would seem right up their alley.

Well I do work for FJ and although I am no particular fan of KR, I will never vote for a union at FJ. My resume is dusted off and ready to go. Not because things are bad here at Flex, not because I'm afraid they will get bad, but because if a union ever does get voted in it will be my last day at Flex. I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Unlike most of you I have no sense of entitlement. I do not expect to sit at one company my entire career while my paychecks get bigger and my responsibilities get lighter. This is a fractional not an airline.

 

[dime line]

Did you hit the high points? No. Unfortunately you missed the point entirely.

Something most of you know, but seem to have forgotten is that corporations exist for one purpose and one purpose only. To make a profit. So of course they are going to try and get you to do as much work as possible for as little pay is possible. That's both understandable and expected. And that's perfectly fine because they need us. In fact they cannot exist without us. The Kenn Ricci's of the world know this. They also know that if they push too far they risk damaging the company and losing their own jobs. Because what happens is, intelligent people say "things aren't as good as they used to be here a company A, I'm going over to company B where they pay better and treat their workers better". At least that's how its supposed to work. Sadly, people like my attacker get lazy. They start uttering phrases like "I don't want to interview again, I don't want to move to a new city, I've been here for XX years", etc., etc. So they start looking for ways to force their employer to pay them more and give them better QOL.

If you wanted stability you should have taken a desk job!

Because I know my value is precisely why I am not worried. If KR turns Flex into a bad place to work I will leave.

And yes, if a union is voted in I will leave.

As I said before, I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Hope that helps explain my view.

Yea Yea we at FLOPS have our select group that said the same thing, kinda like "keyboard tough guys"....they are still here.

 

[dime line]

Biker, all I hear from you is a company apologist. Corporations exist to make a profit? Thanks for the update captain obvious. But I agree to the truth of that statement. What you fail to include, is that the employees of corporations go to work to make money for themselves and their families, and to be able to have a life outside of work. That isn't necessarily always in direct conflict with company goals (a happy, well compensated and motivated worker will be far more productive for a company than one who feels he is treated badly. This has been proven over and over as nauseum) but oftentimes is. The catch is, what if a company doesn't want to make you a happy well compensated employee?

You seem to have an aversion to conflict. Hate to tell you, without conflict you would have precious few jobs to go to where you could realize your worth. If everyone just up and left when unhappy those spots would just be filled with cheaper labor looking to gain experience so they too can move on. Just look at the regionals. The perfect example! Huge turnover there, yet no change at all to compensation, even now when they're having trouble filling all the open slots. Most jobs will never pay you your worth unless the employers are forced to. There are very few benevolent employers out there. Even less in aviation. If you didn't want adversarial difficulties you should have taken a desk job!

But let's get back to worth. I don't know what position you have at FJ, but let's say you're a Lear 45 captain. And let's say you feel your worth in that position is $100k plus benefits. I'm just using examples so don't get hung up on the actual numbers. Anyway, there you are at FJ making your $100K. Then KR takes over and cuts your pay by 10% and reduces benefits. Fine, says you. I don't want to get all adversarial about it, so I'll just go get a job that pays me my worth. And oh look! Right over here at XOJet they pay a similar captain the same money, and best of all, they'll hire me! Hooray!

Just one problem, you aren't going to be hired into that position. You'll start over at the bottom (F/O at that pay) and will spend who knows how many years getting back to what you feel you're worth. A lot of lost income there! And if XOJet goes to crap? You can jump ship and start all over again! Hooray! And in the end, you can spend a 40-year career in aviation with maybe 10 of those years being paid at your worth (if you're lucky) all because it was somehow better to keep jumping ship rather than fight at your first place of employment to keep or improve what you have.

Good luck with that! Sure, I suppose you might find a corporate position where you're hired off the street as a captain at the money you want, but those jobs are few and far between and not available to most folks who aren't well connected (most of us).

I respect your optimism, but the reality of the world we live in these days is the corporate machine is more than happy to take and take and take from the workers, no matter how many quit, UNLESS the workers put up a fight. One of the biggest points you overlooked when you said corporations exist to make money is that the money is supposed to come from sales. If a company is making a profit, why would it want to take from its employees? The answer is greed, and it can't be countered by walking away. If you think a high worker turnover rate will get KR to maintain your compensation then you haven't been paying attention. Netjets had HUGE turnover back in '98 and '99. We badly needed more pilots to keep up with the rapidly expanding company. But hiring could barely keep up with attrition. And yet, RTS fought us tooth and nail to provide a compensation package that would keep pilots. While it became quite adversarial with our union, in the end it was the union's demands that enabled the company to keep pilots long enough to fuel it's expansion. Not everything a union does will hurt the company.

Oh, and to address your point that unions create an adversarial relationship. Really?! KR will continue to take and take from you (I know this guy) but in your mind it's THE UNION creating the bad atmosphere? Not sure there's even anything I can say to that.

By the way, it's no coincidence that the best places to work in aviation are union shops. Now why would that be?

I wish all of you luck in your endeavors, union or not. Hope next year is better than this one!

You cant make this much sense here its just not right

 

[slowtation capt]

http://vimeo.com/99245986

I don't seem to see Deanna in this video, also doesn't look like KADS but KCGF.

Have they told you guys yet how much of a bonus you will be getting, your STIP Bonus, that ended on Dec. 31st, right?