Im Ready, UNION AT FLEX

[doh]

You... You... You don't.... I'm sorry, its just really hard to type when I'm laughing this hard. You don't really believe that do you?

And to Doh, 1/3 of our 401k was "stolen"? That is so ignorant and wrong its hardly worth acknowledging. Suffice to say its not true.

And to whoever started this thread.... Do you even work for FJ? With all of the misinformation, lies and fear coming form a very vocal minority of FLOPS guys it would seem right up their alley.

Well I do work for FJ and although I am no particular fan of KR, I will never vote for a union at FJ. My resume is dusted off and ready to go. Not because things are bad here at Flex, not because I'm afraid they will get bad, but because if a union ever does get voted in it will be my last day at Flex. I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Unlike most of you I have no sense of entitlement. I do not expect to sit at one company my entire career while my paychecks get bigger and my responsibilities get lighter. This is a fractional not an airline.

Reading isn't your strong suit? Or are you deliberately misquoting me? "Stolen" was not what I said.

 

[Biker Rob]

I was going to stay off this thread. I'm not an employee at FJ or Flops, but then I read this and nearly fell off my chair laughing!

Ths is great stuff! Biker, you should change your screen name to "Battered Wife".

Let me sum up your post for you:

"Hi, I'm just a crappy pilot who doesnt believe I have a lot of worth to my company. Hey, if they want to reduce my retirement I'm fine with that. Furthermore, the skills and experience I continue to accrue year after year don't merit any corresponding increase in pay. I'm as good now as I was the day I got my license! Really, flight instructor pay is fine because I've not learned a single thing and improved since those days. Furthermore, if any entity, such as a union, should come along and try to improve my pay, working conditions, and QOL I will be on my way to fly at some place that knows my true value, like Mesa or Great Lakes (I really hope Great Lakes still makes me pay to work there at first!). Good luck to all you losers who think your skills are worth something! Bwahahahaha!"

Did I hit all the high points?

Don't worry folks. At NJA we heard the same thing from a lot of the NJI folks at first. "If I have to join the union, I'm outta here!". Thing is, after the integration and management became more and more abusive (no, it doesn't happen overnight), these same folks (weren't they supposed to be leaving right away?) were suddenly incredibly glad they had union protections.

Happy New Year everyone!! Here's to a healthy and prosperous 2015 and beyond!

Did you hit the high points? No. Unfortunately you missed the point entirely.

Something most of you know, but seem to have forgotten is that corporations exist for one purpose and one purpose only. To make a profit. So of course they are going to try and get you to do as much work as possible for as little pay is possible. That's both understandable and expected. And that's perfectly fine because they need us. In fact they cannot exist without us. The Kenn Ricci's of the world know this. They also know that if they push too far they risk damaging the company and losing their own jobs. Because what happens is, intelligent people say "things aren't as good as they used to be here a company A, I'm going over to company B where they pay better and treat their workers better". At least that's how its supposed to work. Sadly, people like my attacker get lazy. They start uttering phrases like "I don't want to interview again, I don't want to move to a new city, I've been here for XX years", etc., etc. So they start looking for ways to force their employer to pay them more and give them better QOL.

If you wanted stability you should have taken a desk job!

Because I know my value is precisely why I am not worried. If KR turns Flex into a bad place to work I will leave. And yes, if a union is voted in I will leave. As I said before, I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Hope that helps explain my view.

 

[Biker Rob]

Reading isn't your strong suit? Or are you deliberately misquoting me? "Stolen" was not what I said.

You are right. After re-reading the posts I see that stolen was used by another poster. I apoligize. Just a simple mistake.

 

[G4dude]

Did you hit the high points? No. Unfortunately you missed the point entirely.

Something most of you know, but seem to have forgotten is that corporations exist for one purpose and one purpose only. To make a profit. So of course they are going to try and get you to do as much work as possible for as little pay is possible. That's both understandable and expected. And that's perfectly fine because they need us. In fact they cannot exist without us. The Kenn Ricci's of the world know this. They also know that if they push too far they risk damaging the company and losing their own jobs. Because what happens is, intelligent people say "things aren't as good as they used to be here a company A, I'm going over to company B where they pay better and treat their workers better". At least that's how its supposed to work. Sadly, people like my attacker get lazy. They start uttering phrases like "I don't want to interview again, I don't want to move to a new city, I've been here for XX years", etc., etc. So they start looking for ways to force their employer to pay them more and give them better QOL.

If you wanted stability you should have taken a desk job!

Because I know my value is precisely why I am not worried. If KR turns Flex into a bad place to work I will leave. And yes, if a union is voted in I will leave. As I said before, I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Hope that helps explain my view.

Ditto! In short, the company wants to maximize profit, I want to maximize income and lifestyle. I am NOT willing to try to shut the company down to get what I want.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Ditto! In short, the company wants to maximize profit, I want to maximize income and lifestyle. I am NOT willing to try to shut the company down to get what I want.

Thankfully, you are in the very small minority in the industry. The rest of us will fight your battles for you and when it works out to your benefit you will have a nicer deal than you would have had without us.

Two things will happen at NJ.
One - the Company will not get shut down.
Two - a concessionary contract will not be agreed to by the membership.

Without your union you would have already received your concessions. On behalf of the 90+ percent supporting NJASAP in this battle, you are welcome.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

........

Well I do work for FJ and although I am no particular fan of KR, I will never vote for a union at FJ. My resume is dusted off and ready to go. Not because things are bad here at Flex, not because I'm afraid they will get bad, but because if a union ever does get voted in it will be my last day at Flex. I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create........

Doubt any of that is true so this is a red herring argument. If FJ gets 1108 and your wages and work rules were memorialized or increased and "all is quiet on the western front", reasonable thinkers will find it hard to believe that you would forgo all that just because you don't want be a member of the union.

Dust off your resume and apply to all the non-union carriers in the aviation industry. Oops - there aren't any where you would get what you would have under an 1108 CBA. Of course, many will hope you move along so that you can get out of the way for the people that value themselves and their families more than the investors, the front office, or theoretical capitalism.

 

[realityman]

Did you hit the high points? No. Unfortunately you missed the point entirely.

Something most of you know, but seem to have forgotten is that corporations exist for one purpose and one purpose only. To make a profit. So of course they are going to try and get you to do as much work as possible for as little pay is possible. That's both understandable and expected. And that's perfectly fine because they need us. In fact they cannot exist without us. The Kenn Ricci's of the world know this. They also know that if they push too far they risk damaging the company and losing their own jobs. Because what happens is, intelligent people say "things aren't as good as they used to be here a company A, I'm going over to company B where they pay better and treat their workers better". At least that's how its supposed to work. Sadly, people like my attacker get lazy. They start uttering phrases like "I don't want to interview again, I don't want to move to a new city, I've been here for XX years", etc., etc. So they start looking for ways to force their employer to pay them more and give them better QOL.

If you wanted stability you should have taken a desk job!

Because I know my value is precisely why I am not worried. If KR turns Flex into a bad place to work I will leave. And yes, if a union is voted in I will leave. As I said before, I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Hope that helps explain my view.

Biker, all I hear from you is a company apologist. Corporations exist to make a profit? Thanks for the update captain obvious. But I agree to the truth of that statement. What you fail to include, is that the employees of corporations go to work to make money for themselves and their families, and to be able to have a life outside of work. That isn't necessarily always in direct conflict with company goals (a happy, well compensated and motivated worker will be far more productive for a company than one who feels he is treated badly. This has been proven over and over as nauseum) but oftentimes is. The catch is, what if a company doesn't want to make you a happy well compensated employee?

You seem to have an aversion to conflict. Hate to tell you, without conflict you would have precious few jobs to go to where you could realize your worth. If everyone just up and left when unhappy those spots would just be filled with cheaper labor looking to gain experience so they too can move on. Just look at the regionals. The perfect example! Huge turnover there, yet no change at all to compensation, even now when they're having trouble filling all the open slots. Most jobs will never pay you your worth unless the employers are forced to. There are very few benevolent employers out there. Even less in aviation. If you didn't want adversarial difficulties you should have taken a desk job!

But let's get back to worth. I don't know what position you have at FJ, but let's say you're a Lear 45 captain. And let's say you feel your worth in that position is $100k plus benefits. I'm just using examples so don't get hung up on the actual numbers. Anyway, there you are at FJ making your $100K. Then KR takes over and cuts your pay by 10% and reduces benefits. Fine, says you. I don't want to get all adversarial about it, so I'll just go get a job that pays me my worth. And oh look! Right over here at XOJet they pay a similar captain the same money, and best of all, they'll hire me! Hooray!

Just one problem, you aren't going to be hired into that position. You'll start over at the bottom (F/O at that pay) and will spend who knows how many years getting back to what you feel you're worth. A lot of lost income there! And if XOJet goes to crap? You can jump ship and start all over again! Hooray! And in the end, you can spend a 40-year career in aviation with maybe 10 of those years being paid at your worth (if you're lucky) all because it was somehow better to keep jumping ship rather than fight at your first place of employment to keep or improve what you have.

Good luck with that! Sure, I suppose you might find a corporate position where you're hired off the street as a captain at the money you want, but those jobs are few and far between and not available to most folks who aren't well connected (most of us).

I respect your optimism, but the reality of the world we live in these days is the corporate machine is more than happy to take and take and take from the workers, no matter how many quit, UNLESS the workers put up a fight. One of the biggest points you overlooked when you said corporations exist to make money is that the money is supposed to come from sales. If a company is making a profit, why would it want to take from its employees? The answer is greed, and it can't be countered by walking away. If you think a high worker turnover rate will get KR to maintain your compensation then you haven't been paying attention. Netjets had HUGE turnover back in '98 and '99. We badly needed more pilots to keep up with the rapidly expanding company. But hiring could barely keep up with attrition. And yet, RTS fought us tooth and nail to provide a compensation package that would keep pilots. While it became quite adversarial with our union, in the end it was the union's demands that enabled the company to keep pilots long enough to fuel it's expansion. Not everything a union does will hurt the company.

Oh, and to address your point that unions create an adversarial relationship. Really?! KR will continue to take and take from you (I know this guy) but in your mind it's THE UNION creating the bad atmosphere? Not sure there's even anything I can say to that.

By the way, it's no coincidence that the best places to work in aviation are union shops. Now why would that be?

I wish all of you luck in your endeavors, union or not. Hope next year is better than this one!

 

[jetwash]

Because I know my value is precisely why I am not worried. If KR turns Flex into a bad place to work I will leave. And yes, if a union is voted in I will leave. As I said before, I will not work in the adversarial atmosphere that unions create.

Hope that helps explain my view.

I worked with a few guys who said the same thing to me 8 years ago.

Guess what, they are still working here but making 45% more and have better work rules and a better QOL.

But they are still pissed at the union for getting them all of that and are happy to cash that pay check.

 

[doh]

You are right. After re-reading the posts I see that stolen was used by another poster. I apoligize. Just a simple mistake.

Apology accepted. I try very hard to post only what I can defend if I were not "anonymous". I know I don't always succeed. Most people know who I am anyway because I type like I talk. I know I told RH who I am on here, so that was important to me.

 

[Brit]

I know I told RH who I am on here, so that was important to me.

Why was that important to you? You wanted a target
on your back?