IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[NJAPLT]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. Any scumbag actions from your union leadership should not be hidden from your pilot group, but instead brought into the public for your pilots to know about. If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. This incident demonstrates that any future shady actions will be under a spotlight, and hopefully that knowledge will prevent more unethical incidents by your leadership.

It's good for our group to know about the money grab too. It gives me confidence that the NJASAP and the NJ IBT1108 leadership was watching our backs during this transition, and gives me even more trust in this group to lead us in the future.

This event is also important for any joint ventures between the IBT1108 and the NJASAP, one of the "selling" points that was mentioned to the NJ pilot group before the NJASAP/IBT1108 vote. The Nj pilot group was told that we could still assist the Flops pilots during their contract struggle and enforcement afterwards. Now that these actions have come into the light, it makes it clear to our pilot group that they have to be very careful when considering any joint ventures, at least with the current 1108 leadership in place.

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

 

[netjetwife]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. ... If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. Good point. There's also a court of public opinion to which we all belong. Business ethics like honoring an Agreement and old-fashioned morality like trusting a reputable partner can certainly be discussed and opinions formed while still recognizing that the legality of a person's actions will be decided in the legal arena. ...

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. Agreed. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first. Nor does it hurt to take the word of locals who know the currents well and have learned thru experience where the dangerous undertow is and how best to avoid it.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

This final point in you post, NJAPLT, bears repeating and I've been glad to see it stressed here by NJ pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. Any scumbag actions from your union leadership should not be hidden from your pilot group, but instead brought into the public for your pilots to know about. If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. This incident demonstrates that any future shady actions will be under a spotlight, and hopefully that knowledge will prevent more unethical incidents by your leadership.

It's good for our group to know about the money grab too. It gives me confidence that the NJASAP and the NJ IBT1108 leadership was watching our backs during this transition, and gives me even more trust in this group to lead us in the future.

This event is also important for any joint ventures between the IBT1108 and the NJASAP, one of the "selling" points that was mentioned to the NJ pilot group before the NJASAP/IBT1108 vote. The Nj pilot group was told that we could still assist the Flops pilots during their contract struggle and enforcement afterwards. Now that these actions have come into the light, it makes it clear to our pilot group that they have to be very careful when considering any joint ventures, at least with the current 1108 leadership in place.

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

Do you really know what the hell you’re talking about? You are obviously a child of the 21st century. You want to try every rumor in the court of uninformed public opinion.

Has it occurred to you that our leaders have been advised by legal counsel to refrain from responding to ignorant drivel like yours? What we have here are good and honorable men caught up in a feeding frenzy of lies, innuendos, and ignorant smut. Like I said in a previous post, the truth will reveal itself.

Your attempt to portray yourself as a caring and unbiased person needs a little work.

Forgive me if I don’t turn to you for moral support and technical help.

 

[CA1900]

Has it occurred to you that our leaders have been advised by legal counsel to refrain from responding to ignorant drivel like yours?

Would that be the very same "legal counsel" that advised them to break the law and that drew up the illegitimate trusteeship paperwork in the first place?

Your attempt to portray yourself as a caring and unbiased person needs a little work.

A lot of us do care about your situation and wanted to help. That's what makes that doublecross all the more hateful.

To reiterate what steelersrule said:

the fact they had to move in secrecy shows the intent to mislead...

If this were a legitimate transaction and a genuine trusteeship, Bill Moore wouldn't have had any reason to swipe the check in a darkened office after sneaking in the back door. He could have walked right to the front door, showed legitimate trusteeship paperwork, and walked right past the security guard we set up to keep undesirables like Moore out.

But it wasn't legitimate paperwork. It was generated solely for the purpose of misleading the banks. It wouldn't have survived the light of day, so it was done in secret in a back room of the local, without the knowledge of the people that were in charge of it that day. You could have waited the four days we agreed upon, but instead, your guys tried to seize financial control early.

It was the moral equivalent of forging a check and emptying your parents' checking account, because you're paranoid that they might write you out of their will!

 

[netjetwife]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible. Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

 

[NJAPLT]

So they can't talk about what they did, but it was totally above board? Huh?

At the end of the day, I doubt that any charges will be filed, but that is not the issue in my mind. The issue is one of honor, trust and living up to your agreements.

I believe that this was a money grab and a scumbag move by the National IBT, and the 1108 elect participants were either willing partners or were fooled into it. I will stand by my belief that this was a scumbag move done under the radar of the legit 1108 leadership at the time. Actions made in dark rooms are rarely ethical, and I consider them scumbag actions, even if the people who did them are normally very ethical at other times in other situations.

Turbohonda, I understand you see the same actions as totally legit, and while I do not understand why you think this, I respect you for defending that position.

Just to recap, you believe that the IBT national's lawyers ensured everything was both legal and ethical before they took those actions. Am I correct?

Does the paperwork not being filed, the incorrect date on them, and bypassing the 1108 leadership in place at the time constitute a necessary action your leaders elect took, a simple error, or a dishonest move?

If you want to get an unbiased opinion, I don't think you should talk to any NJ pilot, myself included and I make no claim that I am unbiased. Those Flops pilots who were also involved are biased also, so try to keep that in mind when your read there explanations of the events that occurred and why they undertook them.

I see as all of the NJ pilots as the intended victims of the last minute shenanigans that occurred. I'm just calling those actions as I see them, bias and all. Please feel free to disagree with me.

Even with all of this, I still see Flops, Flexjet, Citation Shares, and the many others as brother (and sister) pilots. We are all doing the same basic job, and should support each other in our quests for a good job, fair work rules, and pay commensurate with the responsibility that is placed on our shoulders every day.

No matter if a group is represented by a union or not, or how we feel about the leadership of any particular group, I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

[TurboHonda]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible. Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

Thank you.

 

[netjetwife]

Turbo, you and your fellow pilots are welcome to my support in these difficult days. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[cougar12]

Mend the Fences

OK everyone can we just let this calm down and let things workout. I understand that the leadership on both sides were shocked and feelings were hurt by the actions and alleged actions of each other. Asking for us to remove our leadership or demanding that they resign is completely inappropriate.
We trust our FO leadership as much as the NJ pilot group trusts theirs. I have stated previously that we will make sure the agreement is fulfilled. I know these two guys personally and they have proved that they are of the highest character and integrity, and they were shocked when they received the information from the IBT. Is it possible that our leadership reacted on some wrong information? Sure it is. They are relatively new in dealing with the IBT compared to NJ leadership. Not to mention a little scared that that the 1108 would be broke at the end of the month. So if they over reacted, I think they deserve a break. No one likes to have their integrity questioned.
All of us know we need the support of NJ pilots and their leadership they have been though all of this before and are a great source of wisdom and knowledge. So lets get the fences mended and move forward to raise the bar!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

OK, their leaders have been advised, but clearly you have information and opinions from the inside that you don't mind posting on a public message board.

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible.

Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

The you go with this "we" stuff again. Union leadership's opinion? (You're husband?)

Still, as you don't work there you only get one view to form your opinions on, that of your husband.

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?

 

[Freedom]

B19 attempting to Silence NetJets Wife

Still, as you don't work there you only get one view to form your opinions on, that of your husband.

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?

That can only be happening for one reason:

B19 knows how effective NetJets Wife is in combating his FUD against the Flight Options Pilots, and he wants her gone off this website.

He also knows that getting the Wives of the Flight Options Pilots involved and supporting there Flight Options husbands during this critical phase in Negotiations could make the difference between Pilots willing to go to work and "Tow the Line" or hide in their foxholes.

NetJets Wife: Our two Pilot Groups may have had some disagreement how this transition period was handled, but I think we are both in agreement as to who our Common Enemy is.

B19 and his pack of FUD spinners who wish to undermine the efforts of all Pilots to secure Fair Compensation to support their families.

When you are paid a Retainer by a Business like that which B19 receives, you fight for the interests of your client. B19 is just doing what he's paid to do.

If that happens to hurt hundreds or thousands of Pilots and their families, what does he care; he's still getting his money.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[steelersrule74]

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?

like most, i only occasionally read your drivel because you are insignificant in the struggles of professional pilots to preserve a career worth having. That being said - since you think NJW is only spouting someone else's opinion (i guess you don't think too highly of women or acknowledge they can have their own point of view), i'm curious if you will finally have the courage to tell us poor union folk who YOU work for and whose opinion YOU'RE obviously spouting.

Of course, most of us already have a good idea on the answer but I'm sure the upcoming spin will be entertaining........

 

[B19 Flyer]

like most, i only occasionally read your drivel because you are insignificant in the struggles of professional pilots to preserve a career worth having. That being said - since you think NJW is only spouting someone else's opinion (i guess you don't think too highly of women or acknowledge they can have their own point of view), i'm curious if you will finally have the courage to tell us poor union folk who YOU work for and whose opinion YOU'RE obviously spouting.

Of course, most of us already have a good idea on the answer but I'm sure the upcoming spin will be entertaining........

First, I think very highly of all women, especially those that are accomplished and experienced in their career field. They have valid opinions and add alot to the conversation when they are personally involved and can speak from first hand knowledge.

My wife for example is a corporate officer in a worldwide services company. I would never post on a public board with the inside information I know about her business dealings, and she would never post about mine.

NJW on the other hand speaks freely and posts on public boards about what she knows of union business at Netjets.

It's the source of the information that all of you should be concerned about.

If you haven't asked yourself the question about where she gets her information, you aren't thinking very much about the problem she presents the union on these boards.

Her primary source of information is obviously her husband. As a union volunteer for NJASAP, he would be priviledged to have and share with his wife information and opinions others would not have.

When she posts these on the board, it has to be transparent to all of you where those opinions are coming from.

As far as I'm concerned, she can post her mindless chatter all she wants. But those opinions are coming and highly influenced from somebody inside Netjets with inside information, not a non-employee pilot's wife that doesn't work for the company.

 

[B19 Flyer]

That can only be happening for one reason:

B19 knows how effective NetJets Wife is in combating his FUD against the Flight Options Pilots, and he wants her gone off this website.

He also knows that getting the Wives of the Flight Options Pilots involved and supporting there Flight Options husbands during this critical phase in Negotiations could make the difference between Pilots willing to go to work and "Tow the Line" or hide in their foxholes.

NetJets Wife: Our two Pilot Groups may have had some disagreement how this transition period was handled, but I think we are both in agreement as to who our Common Enemy is.

B19 and his pack of FUD spinners who wish to undermine the efforts of all Pilots to secure Fair Compensation to support their families.

When you are paid a Retainer by a Business like that which B19 receives, you fight for the interests of your client. B19 is just doing what he's paid to do.

If that happens to hurt hundreds or thousands of Pilots and their families, what does he care; he's still getting his money.

Freedom is Not Free

I'm not paid a penny for the entertainment I get posting on these boards and I'm not the only one that thinks her opinions are long winded and off the wall.

If it's acceptable to you that a union leader's wife is dumping opinions and information on this board that could only have come from her husband so be it.

I would think that you would be concerned about ANY member of union leadership posting inside information outside the walls of the internal offices, even if it is through his wife.

 

[realityman]

B19 is on my ignore list, and I don't like seeing his un-informed opinions when someone else quotes him...

BUT

I'd like to extend my thanks to him because after all the divisivness of the past week, he's helping bring everyone back together, as a common enemy tends to unite everyone else.

After all the differing opinions and voices, notice how we all tend to pull together when B19 speaks?

Thank you B19!