I can't understand the low pay

[Airpiraterob]

The flight review is commonly mis-informed as a bi-annual flight review cause its good for 24 months. but in fact its still officially called standardly as 'flight review'.

cool things about this that saved your butt:
1. you checked him out in the plane but DID NOT give him a flight review. therefore you were not responsible for any of his actions after.
2. its up to himself to keep himself current.
3. his bad judgement is all his own fault.

bad things that didnt save HIS butt:
1. outside of 90 days all he can fly is himself. read closely to carry passengers as PIC you need the 3 TO and LDG in 90 days, but if youre not taking passengers, you dont need any of that. you can sit around for 15 months, then decide to do a cross country and do it solo without the required TO and LDG's.
2. he was totally responsible for his own actions, even if lawyers try to show its someone elses fault for him acting stupid, its still the PIC of the airplane thats responsible for all safety of the flight.

i wonder if you could go and find out the last person to give him a 'flight review' and see if that person was tortured in the court?


oh yeah, and why is there brail on the ATM machines at the DRIVE THROUGH?

 

[KickSave]

Avbug, that story sounds to me as if it's the way things -should- work (with the exception of the company asking you to lie for them). Sounds like the insurance co went sniffing for who was to blame. They sniffed the co that owned the plane first, they deflected blame, and the insurance co came and sniffed around in your direction to see if you had screwed up. They got turned away because you had done your job properly, and they went sniffing elsewhere. Strikes me as the NIQ was totally at fault, as is frequently the case with this type of situation (pilot error, poor judgement), and that's where the real liability was.

Of course I'm not suggesting there is no liability in being a CFI. What I'm still wondering is how often does a CFI actually get sued (not just questioned) for an accident that was a students own fault in spite of his training.

If the CFI and the Student discuss ADM, establish realistic personal minimums, practice in sim or real IMC for the purpose of making that 180 deg turn if they ever do accidentally get into IMC, and 2 years later the student goes out and flies into Mt Baldy on a day when the weather is well below VFR, then it would strike me as if the CFI would need to produce his detailed training records to show that he did his job, and the NIQ screwed up on his own accord.

My own instructor has driven home the need for a CFI to CYA with complete records of the training he/she provides, above and beyond what the FARs require.

 

[A Squared]

re: NIQ

Nimrod in question? that doesn't really make sense. "Nimrod" means hunter. I think that it comes from Greek mythology

 

[Bluto]

Nimrod:
2. A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid
Of course, I could care less about this argument.

 

[A Squared]

Hmmmm, my dictionary doesn't include this definition, but then, it is about 25 years old. I guess that newer dictionaries have included this misappropriation of the word. James Kilpatrick would *never* approve. I'm sure that the British Nimrod aircrews will be quite dissapointed to see their airplane describes this way....... or maybe they could care less

 

[jarhead]

nimrod

Although I never looked the word up in a dictionary, common usage of that term around folks I frequent with, use the word commonly to describe an inexperienced, rookie type, in any field, who seems to think he knows it all, when he's still wet behind the ears.

 

[A Squared]

Re: nimrod

Although I never looked the word up in a dictionary, common usage of that term around folks I frequent with, use the word commonly to describe an inexperienced, rookie type, in any field, who seems to think he knows it all, when he's still wet behind the ears.

I think that it's only recently that it's been popularly used like that. My theory is that the word just *sounds* like it should mean that ... kinda like dimwit, nitwit, ninny, so people just started using it that way out of ignorance ... eventualy enough people were misuising it that it is has been included in the more liberal dictionaries.

 

[jarhead]

A Squared

I believe you are correct about that. There are many more words in the dictinary now, than there were a few decades ago. Common usage, slang, and new jargon relative to new technology, are the birthplace of new, officially recognized words.

I would venture to say that "Internet" was not in the dictionary before Al Gore was born.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Yet another long, drawn out thread that has lost it's topic meaning at the end...............

 

[CFI'er]

So, what you are saying is the FBO and school has no profit built into solo rental? They do make a profit with solo rental. Again, I agree, there is nothing wrong with profit, just don't try to hide it with charging phony rates.

I think one trend might be in the works for aircraft rental, cash vs credit card. There is a gas station in the area that gives a $.05 credit per gallon for paying cash. Now this is a great idea. Maybe it will get us back to a cash society rather than a plastic society.

 

[Whirlwind]

So, what you are saying is the FBO and school has no profit built into solo rental? They do make a profit with solo rental. Again, I agree, there is nothing wrong with profit, just don't try to hide it with charging phony rates.

There is nothing phony about the rates they charge.

Yes, they make money on solo rentals, that income pays for the airplanes.

It isn't free to keep CFIs around the office, and if you use the income from the planes to pay for them, then the planes aren't making money.

Jason

 

[jarhead]

CFI'er,

Not sure what you mean by the statement of "Charging a phoney rate" What's phoney about it? Any business, should charge as much for their product or service as they can possibly get. The market place will determine what is excessive. Their is no law (nor should their be one) from a kid charging a thousand bucks an hour to mow lawns. I don't believe he'd get many customers, and that is what regulate prices. He'd have to reduce his rate to such a level, that he could attract a customer. Then, he's also have to be aware of what his competitor is charging. It's the American way! Capitalism, and the free market.

 

[A Squared]

CFIer,

Get over it. There is nothing dishonest, or hidden, or phony or unfair or exploitative about it. The owner of the school has a bunch of expenses which are related to running a flight school and which are above and beyond the expenses which would result from renting airplanes. There' the cost of supplying space for you to conduct lessons, there’s the electricity, heat and a/c for that space, there's the training supplies and resources such as computers, books and such, advertising costs. The administrative costs of doing payroll for the flight instructors. There's the social security tax, unemployment insurance, workman's compensation insurance, medical insurance and 401k (if you have that).

If you were an attorney working for a law firm, your hourly pay would be less that the firm billed your services to the client. If you were a doctor working for a clinic, your hourly pay would be less than the clinic billed the patient. If you were a janitor, working for a janitorial service, your hourly pay would be less than the rate the service billed it's customers. If you were an electrician working for a electrical repair company, your hourly rate would be less that the company billed the clients. If you were an engineer working for a consulting firm, your hourly pay would be less than the firm billed the clients. If you are a skilled employee of *any* type, working for *any* business which bills outside clients for your services, the company will charge more for your services than they pay you. If they don't, they don't stay in business. The fact that there may be other revenue sources like aircraft rental doesn't mean that the flight instruction (or any service) should be provided at a *cost* to the company and you should keep all the money billed. Why do you think that you should be different from every other employee in the free world?

You want to *keep* all the money which is charged for your instruction? Great, start your own business. Suddenly you’ll see where all that other money goes. You’ll suddenly realize how much of the social security tax your employer was paying. You’ll learn about self employment tax (schedule SE on your federal income tax return) You’ll realize very quickly that you aren’t keeping all the money you bill. If you’re successful with your instruction and business is good and you want to expand, as soon as you hire your first flight instructor, you’ll understand why businesses charge more for services than they pay their employees. I guarantee that you’ll do exactly the same.

As far as the your idea about cash vs credit;

>>>>>>>>"I think one trend might be in the works for aircraft rental, cash vs credit card. There is a gas station in the area that gives a $.05 credit per gallon for paying cash. Now this is a great idea. Maybe it will get us back to a cash society rather than a plastic society."

I don’t think that will work. I think that most credit card companies have a clause in their contracts with the businesses which forbids them adding to the price for a credit card sale. You see it occasionally, but it usually doesn’t last, eventually word gets back to the credit card company and the business gets a nasty letter from the credit card company.. You see, the credit card companies have a vested interest in the price to the consumer being the same whether it’s cash or credit card. They take steps to keep it that way.

 

[bigD]

You see it occasionally, but it usually doesn’t last, eventually word gets back to the credit card company and the business gets a nasty letter from the credit card company.

Around here, the FBO's must be ignoring their letters, because all but one have cash discounts for rental. Maybe by calling it a "cash discount" as opposed to a "credit card surcharge", they get around any clause in their contract?

 

[bigD]

But regarding the discussion about flight schools - there may be some bad ones out there that are screwing the CFI's to line the owner's pockets, but overall I tend to agree with A Squared.

My flight school charges $32 for instruction, but pays the instructors $12 per hour, plus a base monthly salary (the instructors are required to be there whether they have students on the schedule or not). While I don't actually know how much profit the owner is taking for herself, all I know is that she's at the school 6 days a week, and busts her @ss flying and managing the school. The school looks good, the planes look nice and are well equipped, and the instructors fly a lot because the school has a good reputation in the area. If she's getting rich off the school, it certainly doesn't seem like it to me. Whatever profit that's made seems to go back into the school and planes, which makes renters like me happy.

Now, that doesn't excuse the fact that the instructors there make jack squat. They fly a lot, but most of them are barely making ends meet. The prices for rental are low, with the quality of the planes being pretty high. She could easily charge another $5-10 per plane and her customer base would absorb it. I'd happily pay another 10 bucks per hour on the Duchess to see the CFI's make more money.