How will Pilot shops survive the purposed FAA mandate of 1500/ATP

[Salukipilot4590]

You are probably going to see instructors paying students to build time.

Nah...I'd just have friends pay pro-rata to fly places. Seems to be working lately!

 

[livin'thesim]

There is a big difference between 1500 tt and an ATP. The XC time is very very hard to get as a FI.

Dang - I forgot about that part.

You're absolutely right! The requirement was clarified several years ago to require 50nm from origin. Unlike the 135 requirement which is still airport to airport (if I remember correctly). ??

Negotiating leverage, here we come!!!

 

[acaTerry]

any requirements for a certain type of flying? I mean, come on, 1500 hours going around the pattern as a CFI in a Cessna 152 is fairly worthless IMO. On the other hand, some kid whos been flying night freight for 5 or 600 hours in some beat up old Baron or Cessna 310 in all types of weather would be a heck of a lot better than the 1500 hour traffic pattern CFI. (IMO)

I must respectfully disagree. I instructed for 4000 hrs, and when I got to the airlines I was well prepared and adapted quickly. On the other hand, a couple freight guys flunked out. Why? In my humble opinion I was getting better flight time as an instructor than the freight guys who were in my class. They memorized the approaches on their runs, never even took out the plates as I was told. They flew in real weather, yes, and I on the other hand was a cherry in IFR (west coast pilot). BUT, I knew the IFR system, charts, etc much better. I was more situationally aware than they were (again, years of the same 5 or 7 runs...sometimes as few as 2). Now, is this to say that as a rule that CFI is better? I have to say no, not as a rule. At the same time I have no more higher opinion of the abilities of my freight counterparts preparedness for airline flying than a CFI. It's my opinion that I was so much better than the freight guys because I took my instructing seriously. I was one of those guys who never could know enough, who was always looking for the other plane trying to hit me, and always trying to find something a little deeper than what the lesson plan called for. I varied what we did, and tried to expose the students to everything I could. Now granted, I am one of those guys who LOVES aviation so I put my whole effort in it. Do I think that's true of all CFI's? No, especially today in the age of el rapido flight school "training". I have observed that each generation of CFI is weaker than the one before, even though there are more resources available. I think it's because everyone only does it long enough to get away from it. So they have not even learned how to fly, much less instruct. This is where a freight guy beats the CFI hands down. BUT, a good CFI who gave his all will be just as good if not better than a freight guy if you balance it out. In the end, as airline piloting or any type of flying goes...you're never REALLY prepared for it until you've done it, as an FO, and for several years before upgrading.

 

[makersmarc]

I must respectfully disagree. I instructed for 4000 hrs, and when I got to the airlines I was well prepared and adapted quickly. On the other hand, a couple freight guys flunked out. Why? In my humble opinion I was getting better flight time as an instructor than the freight guys who were in my class. They memorized the approaches on their runs, never even took out the plates as I was told. They flew in real weather, yes, and I on the other hand was a cherry in IFR (west coast pilot). BUT, I knew the IFR system, charts, etc much better. I was more situationally aware than they were (again, years of the same 5 or 7 runs...sometimes as few as 2). Now, is this to say that as a rule that CFI is better? I have to say no, not as a rule. At the same time I have no more higher opinion of the abilities of my freight counterparts preparedness for airline flying than a CFI. It's my opinion that I was so much better than the freight guys because I took my instructing seriously. I was one of those guys who never could know enough, who was always looking for the other plane trying to hit me, and always trying to find something a little deeper than what the lesson plan called for. I varied what we did, and tried to expose the students to everything I could. Now granted, I am one of those guys who LOVES aviation so I put my whole effort in it. Do I think that's true of all CFI's? No, especially today in the age of el rapido flight school "training". I have observed that each generation of CFI is weaker than the one before, even though there are more resources available. I think it's because everyone only does it long enough to get away from it. So they have not even learned how to fly, much less instruct. This is where a freight guy beats the CFI hands down. BUT, a good CFI who gave his all will be just as good if not better than a freight guy if you balance it out. In the end, as airline piloting or any type of flying goes...you're never REALLY prepared for it until you've done it, as an FO, and for several years before upgrading.

I agree 100%

 

[Motown]

There is a big difference between 1500 tt and an ATP. The XC time is very very hard to get as a FI.

Huh? XC time was EASY to get when I was working as a CFI. All you need to do is have your student fly at least 50 NM away from your departure airport during flight lessons... FAR 61.1 says you have to fly to and land at a point at least 50 nm away from your departure airport EXCEPT for the requirements for an ATP (no landing required).

On almost every lesson, I had my students fly at least a half hour or more in one direction while I had them practice whatever we were working on, making sure I verified we were over some point at least 50 NM away from our departure airport. Although not required for the ATP, I usually made sure we touched down somewhere outside of that 50 NM ring, as well. I'd pick a sleepy little airport to practice pattern work that was 51 nm away, or pick a road 53 NM away to do ground ref. man. work. I almost always kept our home-airport's DME up on the display so I could see when we passed the 50 DME mark.

By doing this, I made sure that the student logged XC time for his/her future rating requirements, I logged XC time for my ATP requirements, and we got more work done because we got away from the "extend your downwind, I'll call your base, you're looking for the 4th aircraft on final" calls the rest of the instructors usually dealt with when teaching.

Situational awareness isn't just about knowing which side of the procedure turn you're on; it's also about knowing which side of the next rating's requirements your student is on.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Sorry....Dont want to hear any whining about "how am I going to get to 1500 hours"

I had around 2000 hours when hired at a regional. I felt fortunate. It wasn't that hard, but I couldn't buy it and it didn't just fall into my lap. I earned it.

It's called paying your dues. If you did it you understand. If you didn't or don't want to, you won't, simple as that.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I must respectfully disagree. I instructed for 4000 hrs, and when I got to the airlines I was well prepared and adapted quickly. On the other hand, a couple freight guys flunked out. Why? In my humble opinion I was getting better flight time as an instructor than the freight guys who were in my class. They memorized the approaches on their runs, never even took out the plates as I was told. They flew in real weather, yes, and I on the other hand was a cherry in IFR (west coast pilot). BUT, I knew the IFR system, charts, etc much better. I was more situationally aware than they were (again, years of the same 5 or 7 runs...sometimes as few as 2). Now, is this to say that as a rule that CFI is better? I have to say no, not as a rule. At the same time I have no more higher opinion of the abilities of my freight counterparts preparedness for airline flying than a CFI. It's my opinion that I was so much better than the freight guys because I took my instructing seriously. I was one of those guys who never could know enough, who was always looking for the other plane trying to hit me, and always trying to find something a little deeper than what the lesson plan called for. I varied what we did, and tried to expose the students to everything I could. Now granted, I am one of those guys who LOVES aviation so I put my whole effort in it. Do I think that's true of all CFI's? No, especially today in the age of el rapido flight school "training". I have observed that each generation of CFI is weaker than the one before, even though there are more resources available. I think it's because everyone only does it long enough to get away from it. So they have not even learned how to fly, much less instruct. This is where a freight guy beats the CFI hands down. BUT, a good CFI who gave his all will be just as good if not better than a freight guy if you balance it out. In the end, as airline piloting or any type of flying goes...you're never REALLY prepared for it until you've done it, as an FO, and for several years before upgrading.

+1 as well. Outstanding post.

What any sort of flying, be in CFIing or 135, does is build maturity. Learning the less tangible lessons of being a professional pilot are much better done with none or just a few folks on board, rather than an RJ with 50 souls or more.

I would welcome the change... It might also give us pilots a little pricing power for a change.

A am more concerned about what this means for commuting.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Excellent post, acaTerry.

I've seen the same thing- I only instructed for 1200 hours (got hired by pinnacle with 1750 TT), but that was some of the most valuable time I had. Being an instructor is extremely rewarding if you really take the time to do it right. That combined with flying small time corporate ops where we were going numerous destinations made the transition to the airlines quite straight forward.

I am very pleased with this new reg and what it will do to the pilot mills. Good riddance!

 

[MACH-TUCK]

The FAA missed the boat on this one. I believe the damage is already done. There are thousands of (121) pilots out there from these training programs already flying the line at many different airlines. The problem is that most of them are still in the right seat and never really had to do much "decision making". Now when they start upgrading and their put in sticky situations, with someone else that just came from the same 0-hero school. Then you got some serious issues with lives at stake, and I hope to God my family isn't on board.
Once again its the FAA writing rules/regs in blood. They should have done this 15yrs ago and maybe we wouldn't be having this problem.

 

[Erlanger]

You're going to see alot more false entries in log books as people try to get up to 1500 hours. Getting an ATP is not good enough. How can the quality of flying be monitored?

 

[avbug]

There is a big difference between 1500 tt and an ATP. The XC time is very very hard to get as a FI.

You mean you might actually have to do something beyond flight instructing for a few months before you get that *dream* job?? The horror.

A very large number of pilots are employed in the industry doing things other than flying for airlines, or flight instructing, you know.

 

[PA44Jockey]

The FAA missed the boat on this one. I believe the damage is already done. There are thousands of (121) pilots out there from these training programs already flying the line at many different airlines. The problem is that most of them are still in the right seat and never really had to do much "decision making". Now when they start upgrading and their put in sticky situations, with someone else that just came from the same 0-hero school. Then you got some serious issues with lives at stake, and I hope to God my family isn't on board.
Once again its the FAA writing rules/regs in blood. They should have done this 15yrs ago and maybe we wouldn't be having this problem.

I would think having a 121 FO sit right seat for 7 years and then moving to the left seat with a low time FO would be a better situation than what was going on at Mesa and Chautauqua. You had guys sitting left seat after 3 years and then new hires in the right seat with 300 hours. Any FO that has been in the right seat over 5 years definitely had between 1000 and 1500 hours to get on 121 when they did, so they at least had that experience and the experience of flying 121 for 5 year while learning from other PICs.

 

[doh]

Any time you decrease the pool of labor, you put upward pressure on wages. How much I don't know. But there will be upward pressure.

 

[Lampshade]

isn't that counteracted by the change to age 65? at least until 2012

 

[wlacy]

PilotYIP can back me up: I swept floors, mowed grass, flew divers, traffic, checks. C'mon we can't all go straight to the glass cockpit of an air-conditioned turbojet without some kind of hard labor

 

[Crash Pad]

Couple of thoughts. Great Lakes Aviation LTD. is screwed. I don't think people will get 1500TT and an ATP in the hopes of making $15 and a quick upgrade.

Say you are ASA right now. Are you sure you want to furlough? Say you need to hire in the future... the well of ATP's is a little shallow. Sure you can pick up a 1500 hour FO but the ATP will be the trick. I'm guessing current FO's will be grandfathered in.

If ALPA doesn't seize on this... They are idiots.

 

[CaribPilot]

Some number crunching...

Any time you decrease the pool of labor, you put upward pressure on wages. How much I don't know. But there will be upward pressure.

That is the x-factor here. If QOL and wages do not increase, regional carriers and some major carriers will not be able to hire anyone once all the furloughed guys are re-hired.

Delta, CAL, UAL and AMR will need to replace 28923 pilots between 2010 and 2031. As of 7/30/2009, there are 6322 pilots on furlough from Majors, Regionals, Cargo, Charter and 135. This number does not include unannounced or rumored fuloughs. That leaves 22601 pilots to be hired in the next 20 years from only 4 legacy carriers, and that does not include any airline re-growth from this last few years of shrinking due to falling demand. That also does not include USAir, FedEx, UPS, Southwest, and a bunch of other carriers with substantial retirement numbers.

A larger chunk of those guys needed at the higher 121 level will come from regionals, the other portion from military, and the smaller percentage will come from other areas. Assuming the legislation passes, but pay/QOL stay the same as they are now, what do you guys think will happen?

 

[time builder]

Couple of thoughts. Great Lakes Aviation LTD. is screwed. I don't think people will get 1500TT and an ATP in the hopes of making $15 and a quick upgrade.

Say you are ASA right now. Are you sure you want to furlough? Say you need to hire in the future... the well of ATP's is a little shallow. Sure you can pick up a 1500 hour FO but the ATP will be the trick. I'm guessing current FO's will be grandfathered in.

If ALPA doesn't seize on this... They are idiots.

I agree, current airline FO's without the ATP will most likely be grandfathered in.

The bottom feeder airlines are screwed if this bill passes. As compensation is demanded at the regional level, outsourcing will become less and less appealing, and we may see a return of a lot of the major airline flying lost to regionals in the last decade.

 

[BoilerUP]

The elimination of zero-to-hero pilots who want no part of professional development (instructing, fire/line patrol, traffic watch, skydivers, etc) won't hurt at all. Additionally, collegiate programs will have to find a new niche to market to prospective students, as the 500/50 bridge programs of 2004-2007 won't exist AT ALL. I suspect many flight schools and a few college programs will shutter due to a drop-off in demand.

Unfortunately, I do see some charlatan flight school operators taking advantage of this situation though, low-balling their CFIs in pay even more than some already do because they know the CFIs have to put up with it long enough to meet the requirements to hold an ATP.

135 cargo has been and is disappearing; the experiences of many regional pilots in Barons or 'hos is quickly going the way of the 727...and many of those twins are being replaced by Caravans (which while SE probably provide better icing experience than ANY other airframe).

This is going to make networking THAT much more important, especially for up-and-coming pilots who will be scratching to get to that magical number. Hopefully, there will be a corresponding financial payoff for their time and financial investments when they "get there".

 

[SLUF4]

I agree there will probably be more pencil whipping in the logbooks. And I agree with those that say instructing prepared them well. I was at my sharpest when I was teaching.

 

[jmreii]

You're going to see alot more false entries in log books as people try to get up to 1500 hours. Getting an ATP is not good enough. How can the quality of flying be monitored?

You might be right but many instructor pilots and check airmen can tell what type of flight this is going to be before you leave the gate.

 

[joe_pilot]

"Working as a flight instructor prepares you for 121 flying"

"Freight Dogs make good 121 pilots"

Both of the above statements are TRUE...and FALSE.

As a CFI with a couple thousand hours dual given (99% initial instrument and CFII students), I have to say that it helped prepare me for my freight job.

As a freight dog, I have to say that my time spent carrying checks around in bad weather prepared me to deal with anything

(Except CRM. Having two guys in the cockpit was hard at first)

It depends on the type and variety of flying you are doing. Period. A 1200 hr flight instructor who then flies another 500 hrs in an all-weather light twin is better off than a 1700 hour flight instructor.

Of course opinions are like airline CEOs...

 

[Leroy Smith]

I must respectfully disagree. I instructed for 4000 hrs, and when I got to the airlines I was well prepared and adapted quickly....................... because I took my instructing seriously. I was one of those guys who never could know enough, who was always looking for the other plane trying to hit me, and always trying to find something a little deeper than what the lesson plan called for. I varied what we did, and tried to expose the students to everything I could. Now granted, I am one of those guys who LOVES aviation so I put my whole effort in it. Do I think that's true of all CFI's? No, especially today in the age of el rapido flight school "training". I have observed that each generation of CFI is weaker than the one before, even though there are more resources available. I think it's because everyone only does it long enough to get away from it. So they have not even learned how to fly, much less instruct.......................

+1

The numbnuts who are just putting in their time and checking off the boxes, flying around the pattern as CFI's will never amount to anything. I knew some very sharp checkhaulers, but a lot of them were also real slackers who cut every corner and only by the grace of god survived to move on to greener pastures. There will always be motivated people who love aviation, who will soak up every bit of knowledge and experience they can get and be the absolute best pilots they can be. And there will be always be the other arschlochs. At least the 1500/ATP mins would provide more opportunity for them to F it all up or lose interest.

I was one of those absolutely maniacal CFI's. I read everything, did everything, tried everything I could to learn more about aviation. I had 2200 and my ATP when I got hired at a regional. I was teaching in the mid-atlantic and had flown as far as Down East Maine, Key West and Louisiana. I had 130hrs of IMC (hundreds of flights - .2s and .3s) - hundreds of approaches in actual, dozens to mins, numerous misses and diversions. Flew light singles in crosswinds up to 35kts. Worked my way up the degree of severity in the weather slowly and cautiously, made sure I didnt get in over my head or boxed in (of course I did anyway, scared the crap out of myself numerous times- but I always had a plan B and C and a way out). Flew in a lot of IMC with students. I wasnt just a step ahead of the airplane, I had to be several steps ahead of my students because they were usually a step of two behind.

I didnt think that I was "truly" prepared to fly for an airline when I got hired. I realize now that I could have applied much earlier and been in a better position career-wise. But I have forgotten so much since getting into an RJ. The only real challenge is dealing with the system- the schedule, the company-- the logistics of flight and not the aviating. About the only satisfaction I can get from the flying is an occaisonal good visual (cleared way out, rolling out on final at the 500' callout, needles crossed, configured, on speed, etc), maybe some rough weather to deal with, or a particulary sporting crosswind. I wish that it was a little more satisfying, but I think its a good thing that I am generally bored with the flying.

I hate to think that anyone could get hired without a goodly number of "OH SH!T" moments under their belt. That their first real weather or their first really hard decision is with 50+ onboard, But really I am horrified that anyone wants to.......


We can only hope that the FAA, in all of its wisdom, does something that actually makes sense and does some good, instead of just complicating the process of moving people from airport to airport.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The elimination of zero-to-hero pilots who want no part of professional development (instructing, fire/line patrol, traffic watch, skydivers, etc) won't hurt at all. Additionally, collegiate programs will have to find a new niche to market to prospective students, as the 500/50 bridge programs of 2004-2007 won't exist AT ALL. I suspect many flight schools and a few college programs will shutter due to a drop-off in demand.

Unfortunately, I do see some charlatan flight school operators taking advantage of this situation though, low-balling their CFIs in pay even more than some already do because they know the CFIs have to put up with it long enough to meet the requirements to hold an ATP.

135 cargo has been and is disappearing; the experiences of many regional pilots in Barons or 'hos is quickly going the way of the 727...and many of those twins are being replaced by Caravans (which while SE probably provide better icing experience than ANY other airframe).

This is going to make networking THAT much more important, especially for up-and-coming pilots who will be scratching to get to that magical number. Hopefully, there will be a corresponding financial payoff for their time and financial investments when they "get there".

If this rule passes, I'll bet there are some exceptions to the ATP rule that will be created, in the interests of not putting the regionals out of business. When the majors hire again, we aren't going to be able to fill classes as it is due to lack of CFIs and students in the pipeline, much less if there is an ATP rule. It doesn't matter if you pay $1,000,000 a year, if there aren't any flight instructors or students to hire, you won't fill the class.

 

[JustaNumber]

If this rule passes, I'll bet there are some exceptions to the ATP rule that will be created, in the interests of not putting the regionals out of business. When the majors hire again, we aren't going to be able to fill classes as it is due to lack of CFIs and students in the pipeline, much less if there is an ATP rule. It doesn't matter if you pay $1,000,000 a year, if there aren't any flight instructors or students to hire, you won't fill the class.

...You won't fill the class immediately. But let the situation work itself out for a few years, and supply and demand will be back in balance again. The free market always balances itself.

As long as exceptions aren't allowed (which would defeat the whole purpose), airlines will be forced to increase compensation. There are numerous ATP's who previously have left the industry voluntarily, who would return for the right pay. Student pilots would be more willing to do whatever it takes for several years of poverty if the end price is right. The end result will be higher compensation and more experienced regional pilots. Unless exceptions are made....

 

[time builder]

...and many of those twins are being replaced by Caravans (which while SE probably provide better icing experience than ANY other airframe).

It might be just in my neck of the woods (Utah, Idaho and Wyoming), but most of the caravan pilots I know are making over $50K per year, have sweet work rules, and have no intention of ever flying under part 121. A good number of them have been freight dogs for over 10 years and aren't going anywhere.

 

[livin'thesim]

And while we're at it, perhaps we could raise the upgrade requirement to 3000 hours.

 

[waka]

The free market always balances itself.

:laugh:
First, the "free marker" is not a free market, thankfully. Secondly, the market is not some perfect machine and it is pure fantasy to think that the "market" always balances itself.

 

[Eagle757shark]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]ATP FAA REQUIREMENT[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Sec. 61.151 Eligibility requirements: General.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must--[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](a) Be at least 23 years of age;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](c) Be of good moral character;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](d) Meet at least one of the following requirements[/FONT]

 

[JustaNumber]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]ATP FAA REQUIREMENT[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Sec. 61.151 Eligibility requirements: General.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must--[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](a) Be at least 23 years of age;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](c) Be of good moral character;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](d) Meet at least one of the following requirements[/FONT]

There goes half of the FI crowd.