How USAPA's futile stand exacerbates the AA bankruptcy

[waveflyer]

USAPA Formed to oppose a binding arbitration award- they had pay raises and re-establishment of work rules on the table in 2007- and in one of the dumbest financial moves ever by a pilot group- set those aside in a futile attempt to renege on their binding award. Now they undercut every major airline and even Virgin America has a case to say they are held down by usair mainline wages- only allegiant pays worse- without mentioning the regional rates the e-190 pays.

Our system is dependent on pattern bargaining and each group raising the bar when they get an opportunity. Now, usair is weaker, lower paying because of this feud, when they could have been stronger and helping to raise the bar.

I am confident the APA will stand strong and show greater character and strength than most- but usapa has made the job of these 8,000 pilots much more difficult- and that ought to be called out.

At long last- usapa- have you no shame?

 

[whymeworry?]

Interesting take on things. It would be hard to disagree with you.

Binding arbitration is just that. When UAL mgmt recently offered the MECs of CALALPA and UALALPA an expedited negotiation cycle (60-90 days) in return for binding arbitration on the remaining open issues (thereby taking our right to vote on a TA). We balked at their offer. Simply because we understand and fully know exactly what binding arbitration means.

The pilots of USAir agreed to binding arbitration when, after exhausting negotiations, they couldn't settle their issues internally. They didn't like the outcome and want to turn back the clock. It does't work that way. Yet they still feel it does and it should.

 

[General Lee]

The Easties are complete wheenies. They have "sullied" themselves because they agreed to something, didn't like the outcome, and then turned into complete turds. A handshake from them or a signature means NOTHING. They deserve their low pay.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Carl S.]

Good day in Federal Court in PHX for USAPA , 0 for 4 on request for motions. Hopefully a ruling by 4/12 and then the appeals of course.

 

[Taco Rocket]

USAPA Formed to oppose a binding
I am confident the APA will stand strong and show greater character and strength than most- but usapa has made the job of these 8,000 pilots much more difficult-

Are you making a "majority rules" argument? That these 8,000 are more important than what US Air has?

In other words furthering what east did to west -- "majority rules?"

 

[waveflyer]

No- I'm saying that USAPA has made it harder on every airline group to raise and keep the bar up- bc the RLA can be slowed to such glacial paces, opportunities for improvements are rare and need to be taken advantage of.

What makes it stupid is that east pilots won't win, and are operating under a severely concessional contract to fight that fight. My opinion is that east pilots would be better off accepting Nic today than continue to drag it out in futile protest-

The west could slander your character about refusing a binding award- I don't care about that- I just think it's dumb- and since it is- it is irresponsible to continue-

Just know that your fight is hurting the rest of the industry in pattern bargaining bc you have such a poor contract

 

[Fubijaakr]

Again, agreed. The Pickleballers are no better than Virgin pilots in that respect. They're dragging us ALL down to their level.

 

[Turtle21]

Its far worse than anybody ever imagined. New reports show that ****************************** is not only responsible for the the bankruptcy of a once great company named AA, but they are also responsible for global warming, word hunger, and child labor.

Oh, wait, ALPA gave away the pensions at the competition (the single largest cost that burdened AA), and oversaw the other wage concessions that put AA at a disadvantage.

 

[Flybywire44]

No- I'm saying that USAPA has made it harder on every airline group to raise and keep the bar up- bc the RLA can be slowed to such glacial paces, opportunities for improvements are rare and need to be taken advantage of.

What makes it stupid is that east pilots won't win, and are operating under a severely concessional contract to fight that fight. My opinion is that east pilots would be better off accepting Nic today than continue to drag it out in futile protest-

The west could slander your character about refusing a binding award- I don't care about that- I just think it's dumb- and since it is- it is irresponsible to continue-

Just know that your fight is hurting the rest of the industry in pattern bargaining bc you have such a poor contract

East pilots know that seniority is everything. They have been through many mergers that hurt their progression. By default they're done giving seniority to younger pilots. They're just wired that way. Yes, the pay rates for the East would be higher if they had agreed to the arbitrated list. However, under that list they would be demoted to smaller planes, pushed to right seats and suffer losing their schedules! East stood their ground on the principle of West asking for too much.

A merger with AMR will end this stalemate. USAPA knows that the arbitrated list will be used in a merger as the only official reference point to seniority integration. The East pilots will be satisfied having held on to their seniority until retirements kick in and the merger is complete—"Mission accomplished."

Both East and West are equally responsible for where LLC is now. West is not innocent, they asked for too much and ironically have gotten nothing yet.

An LLC/AMR merger will provide enough positive incentive for everyone to move on and enjoy the seniority wave. :beer:

 

[waveflyer]

Well, that's one version of history-
From my sources- the biggest loser has been SWA- who was poised to pounce on the remains of USAir before the west rescued them. (Followed by AA and DAL who were going to pounce on the Intl routes) Which, AWA had to do in order to stay competitive w/ swa in PHX & LAS. As it is, the west lost Vegas- they'd have been done themselves if they didn't get the economies of scale of USAIR. But it's not a chicken and egg thing. AWA only needed USAIR bc USAIR was going to go ch7.
The point is, the BK contract USAPA operates under is what makes it dumb- I get your point, but as you state- the Nic will hold- and your BK contract doesnt pay well enough to make the short term upgrades you got for a very few worth it.
It's just emotional. You know what's more unfair than Nic?: going ch7 and looking for a new job, that's what. None here are unsympathetic to that- I very much understand that (more than you know) but often, moving on and forward is the wisest option. (kind of like getting over a divorce- )
The pilot career would have been healthiest if east and west had both failed and better paying airlines picked up the pieces- but I get fighting and not wanting to fall on your sword- since Parker pulled the trigger - the pilot career would be healthier than now, without question, if east and west would have moved on immediately to a joint contract- the healthiest option every day, is to join up- get over it- and get a joint contract.
The AA BK ought to concern every airline pilot. I assume you saw the Gary Kelly statements- post 9/11 rates were supposed to be temporary -if AA loses too much ground, I think we'll see that post 9/11 rates will be permanent and Swa might have to come down- which will put pressure on everyone
I'm not saying AA BK is usapa's fault- but it doesn't help

 

[St. Nic]

I love it how a couple of westicles make a post about how bad the east is and the usual suspects- fubiJERK and the Geneitsl jump on the band wagon. Loosers!
AWA pilots were and still are the doormat to this industry. Drug dealers, strike breakers, you name it these clowns have done it. They are lucky to have survived to this point. Their precious PHX base is worthless and they were banging on deaths door in 2005 when Lakefitld put the deal together. That's a fact!

 

[Guppiedriver]

East pilots know that seniority is everything. They have been through many mergers that hurt their progression. By default they're done giving seniority to younger pilots. They're just wired that way. Yes, the pay rates for the East would be higher if they had agreed to the arbitrated list. However, under that list they would be demoted to smaller planes, pushed to right seats and suffer losing their schedules! East stood their ground on the principle of West asking for too much.

A merger with AMR will end this stalemate. USAPA knows that the arbitrated list will be used in a merger as the only official reference point to seniority integration. The East pilots will be satisfied having held on to their seniority until retirements kick in and the merger is complete—"Mission accomplished."

Both East and West are equally responsible for where LLC is now.West is not innocent, they asked for too much and ironically have gotten nothing yet.

An LLC/AMR merger will provide enough positive incentive for everyone to move on and enjoy the seniority wave. :beer:

I'm sorry, but there is only one accurate sentence in your entire post. I highlighted it for you in case you were wondering which one it was.

 

[waveflyer]

The pay would have been high enough to more than offset the gains realized by the few who got temporary upgrades. Again- 4 stripes does not pay the bills or for vacations-
It's an emotional temper tantrum- that's it- bc of the bk contract- it's been to everyone's detriment- but mostly to the East's detriment. Time to extend an olive branch and fill up with some redemption-

 

[captfred]

I love it how a couple of westicles make a post about how bad the east is and the usual suspects- fubiJERK and the Geneitsl jump on the band wagon. Loosers!
AWA pilots were and still are the doormat to this industry. Drug dealers, strike breakers, you name it these clowns have done it. They are lucky to have survived to this point. Their precious PHX base is worthless and they were banging on deaths door in 2005 when Lakefitld put the deal together. That's a fact!

Spell much? What are "loosers"?

 

[pilotyip]

I know I will blasted here for lowering the bar, whatever that bar is. Yea darn those people buying tickets always looking for a lower price, funny over on the other place a pilot is trying buy a ticket for his girlfriend to go to SNF. He is asking for advice on how to get the lowest cost ticket.

De-reg has made the industry we have today and most of the people posting here today would not be pilots without de-reg.

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. De-reg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Still is still a great way to make a living with wage in the upper brakets of all wage earners in the world

 

[flygirlqt]

I'm sorry, but there is only one accurate sentence in your entire post. I highlighted it for you in case you were wondering which one it was.

Actually, that is not even correct. Having already entered an agreement ab initio to binding arbitration, it removed any "ability" for the East to "choose to accept" the award. Agreement to binding arbitration is res ipsa loquitur

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Come on Yip. This is FI and calm reasoned debate has no place here.

 

[sleeves]

That's a fact!

Another fact. You agreed to BINDING Arbitration and then backed out on your word when you did not like the outcome.

 

[BuddyF]

The pay would have been high enough to more than offset the gains realized by the few who got temporary upgrades. Again- 4 stripes does not pay the bills or for vacations-
It's an emotional temper tantrum- that's it- bc of the bk contract- it's been to everyone's detriment- but mostly to the East's detriment. Time to extend an olive branch and fill up with some redemption-

How much were the proposed pay increases in the Kirby proposal for the EMB190, B757/767 and A330? How about the loss of minimum fleet count which could have eventually put a lot of people, Pilots, FA's, Mech.s, Agents etc. on the street due to aircraft reductions.

Your picking the wrong group to battle. It's management and their lack of any real contract offers and leadership that's keeping this pilot group apart. Mngt. loves where we're at, and will keep us here as long as they can.

 

[TWA Dude]

Both East and West are equally responsible for where LLC is now. West is not innocent, they asked for too much and ironically have gotten nothing yet.

Man, what an effed-up version of reality you have. All the West asks for is the arbitrated list both sides agreed to abide by. If justice is served one day you'll pay dearly for your treachery.

 

[MCDU]

I wonder how AWA pilots would have voted if the arbitraitor gave DOH and no conditions and restrictions. Would the West have blocked the vote under ALPA merger policy or would they just have given in. The arbitration is not as binding as you think. If it was, it would have been enforced.

The West had the power never to implement the Arbitration just like the East does. I wonder why the East is fine with seperate ops. The Windfall Nic is showing more and more. Just look how many pilots a bottom West pilot would have under him even though they took over 23% of east jobs.

Just ask any of your former classmates at TWA. I wonder why you do not want to go back. MKW is just next to ORD. I guess like like the MKW PHX commute.

M

 

[macdu]

So any guesses on when the 60 day notices to furlough are coming? And how many? (from AA)

 

[Metrojet]

The Easties are complete wheenies. They have "sullied" themselves because they agreed to something, didn't like the outcome, and then turned into complete turds. A handshake from them or a signature means NOTHING. They deserve their low pay.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hey General -

pretty big talker behind your keyboard - you have no clue about anything over here. Stick to your international layovers and don't worry about us!

Metrojet

 

[ableone]

I wonder how AWA pilots would have voted if the arbitraitor gave DOH and no conditions and restrictions. Would the West have blocked the vote under ALPA merger policy or would they just have given in. The arbitration is not as binding as you think. If it was, it would have been enforced.

The West had the power never to implement the Arbitration just like the East does. I wonder why the East is fine with seperate ops. The Windfall Nic is showing more and more. Just look how many pilots a bottom West pilot would have under him even though they took over 23% of east jobs.

adam you are a tool. Just ask any of your former classmates at TWA. I wonder why you do not want to go back. MKW is just next to ORD. I guess like like the MKW PHX commute.

M

Ahh, the Gulfstream pretender returns.

West pilots knew that DOH was a possible outcome of the arbitration because by definition anything can happen in an arbitration. I don't know anyone who had not braced for DOH as a possible outcome.

The east pilots on the other hand seemed to KNOW that DOH was the only possible outcome. History has proven them collectively stupid and this is just another piece of evidence.

A windfall is a furloughed pilot becoming senior to a lineholding captain.

The Nicolau is was and will be fair.

 

[ableone]

Hey General -

pretty big talker behind your keyboard - you have no clue about anything over here. Stick to your international layovers and don't worry about us!

Metrojet

Actually the General is spot on.

You've got a lot of keyboard machismo yourself.

It's telling that your primary defenders are flightInfo laughingstock like MCDU.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Ahh, the Gulfstream pretender returns.

West pilots knew that DOH was a possible outcome of the arbitration because by definition anything can happen in an arbitration. I don't know anyone who had not braced for DOH as a possible outcome.

The east pilots on the other hand seemed to KNOW that DOH was the only possible outcome. History has proven them collectively stupid and this is just another piece of evidence.

A windfall is a furloughed pilot becoming senior to a lineholding captain.

The Nicolau is was and will be fair.

Actually the General is spot on.

You've got a lot of keyboard machismo yourself.

It's telling that your primary defenders are flightInfo laughingstock like MCDU.

Well said!

 

[vetrider]

I wonder how AWA pilots would have voted if the arbitraitor gave DOH and no conditions and restrictions. Would the West have blocked the vote under ALPA merger policy or would they just have given in. The arbitration is not as binding as you think. If it was, it would have been enforced.

The West had the power never to implement the Arbitration just like the East does. I wonder why the East is fine with seperate ops. The Windfall Nic is showing more and more. Just look how many pilots a bottom West pilot would have under him even though they took over 23% of east jobs.

adam you are a tool. Just ask any of your former classmates at TWA. I wonder why you do not want to go back. MKW is just next to ORD. I guess like like the MKW PHX commute.

M

Ableone is right. I know I braced for DOH, and frankly was rather worried it, or some thing close to it, was going to come to pass. It's true, we could have voted no on an agreement, but it would have been shortly obvious how futile that would have been in the long term.

What the west definitely could not have pulled off is the skullduggery the east has. Prater and alpo would have told us to pound sand. And our own 2% terror machine and scumbag lawyer would have been out of the question.

You're not talking apples to apples here.

 

[PCL_128]

They deserve their low pay.

Maybe so, but as waveflyer has aptly pointed out, they aren't the only ones who suffer as a result. The APA pilots are going to have to face a bankruptcy judge who is going to hear arguments from AMR's attorneys claiming that the USAirways wages are "market rates." Meanwhile, you and we will be in Section 6 next year, and United is already in negotiations. Alaska starts in another year. The Airways rates are an anchor on all of us. They may deserve what they're getting, but it's the rest of us who will suffer right along with them.

 

[MCDU]

Maybe so, but as waveflyer has aptly pointed out, they aren't the only ones who suffer as a result. The APA pilots are going to have to face a bankruptcy judge who is going to hear arguments from AMR's attorneys claiming that the USAirways wages are "market rates." Meanwhile, you and we will be in Section 6 next year, and United is already in negotiations. Alaska starts in another year. The Airways rates are an anchor on all of us. They may deserve what they're getting, but it's the rest of us who will suffer right along with them.

Kind of like America West and Valujet (i mean Airtran) was when USAIR, United and Delta went into Ch 11. Thanks PFT_128 for being part of the problem. Your Airline started this and it all started when you went to Gulfstream. You are the problem. Thanks for the suffering your kind has created for all the real pilots that got hired at real airlines. PFT and mergers are the only way a tool like you can get hired. You are an ALPA hypocrite and you are now complaining about something you were part of starting.

M

 

[pilotyip]

Kind of like America West and Valujet (i mean Airtran) was when USAIR, United and Delta went into Ch 11. Thanks PFT_128 for being part of the problem. Your Airline started this and it all started when you went to Gulfstream. You are the problem. Thanks for the suffering your kind has created for all the real pilots that got hired at real airlines. PFT and mergers are the only way a tool like you can get hired. You are an ALPA hypocrite and you are now complaining about something you were part of starting.

M

Welcome to the club PCL, here I thought I was the source of the problem.