How USAPA's futile stand exacerbates the AA bankruptcy

[Bringupthebird]

I wonder how AWA pilots would have voted if the arbitraitor gave DOH and no conditions and restrictions. Would the West have blocked the vote under ALPA merger policy or would they just have given in. The arbitration is not as binding as you think. If it was, it would have been enforced.

The West had the power never to implement the Arbitration just like the East does.

Sorry, that's a common misconception. There never was independent ratification with the ability for one side to veto the wishes of the other. Read the TA.

The seniority list arbitration is separate from contract ratification, but it's implementation is dependent on ratification.

Unless you've been too busy to read the news, Judge Silver will define the enforce-ability of the Nic.

USAPA pushed for single-carrier status so that they could attempt an unfettered land-grab, but alas they didn't think things through completely. In demolishing the wall of separation, they left themselves open to a DFR when they chose to support one side at the expense of the other. Now millions of extorted dollars later, they are being told in no uncertain terms that they must abide by the arbitration which will include presenting and defending the Nicolau list.

Once the integration and the Joint CBA is ratified, they can go back to their slimy, corrupt business as usual that the east seems so willing to accept.

 

[vetrider]

Would you believe there were west pilots running around proclaiming that the east was going to show us how to get a good contract? Lol. They can't do much of anything. They can't even hose a minority group without stepping on their cranks every step of the way.

 

[C Festerpuss]

It is not widely knowed or acknowledged that us southern folks has totally different ideas about the Second War for Independence, what yuall calls the Civil War. We knows it got sumpin to do with this incident and there is more information yuall needs to know.

[FONT=&quot]Battle of Fort Sumter[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Battle of Fort Sumter (April 12–13, 1861) was the bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter, near Charleston, South Carolina, that started the American Civil War. Following declarations of secession by seven Southern states, South Carolina demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, 1860, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surreptitiously moved his small command from the indefensible Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress controlling the entrance of Charleston Harbor. An attempt by U.S. President James Buchanan to reinforce and resupply Anderson, using the unarmed merchant ship Star of the West, failed when it was fired upon by shore batteries on January 9, 1861. South Carolina authorities then seized all Federal property in the Charleston area, except for Fort Sumter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]During the early months of 1861, the situation around Fort Sumter increasingly began to resemble a siege. In March, Brig. Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard, the first general officer of the newly formed Confederate States of America, was placed in command of Confederate forces in Charleston. Beauregard energetically directed the strengthening of batteries around Charleston harbor aimed at Fort Sumter. Conditions in the fort grew dire as the Federals rushed to complete the installation of additional guns. Anderson was short of men, food, and supplies.[/FONT]


What this here article don’t say is that there was a little “gob********************e” Yankee Sergeant named Cleary out on that fort. He done got up on the ramparts of Fort Sumter and dropped his drawers and mooned the peace loving and gentle people of Charleston South Carolina. Well sir they was mortified and consternated and then just so danged mad that the Honorable Southern General PGT Beauregard had no choice but to defend the honor of the good people of Charleston so done gone and ordered his artillery batteries to open fire.

So there it is… Mike Cleary’s kin done started the Second War for independence, (that’s the civil war for you Yankees..)

 

[charlie2]

Sorry, that's a common misconception. There never was independent ratification with the ability for one side to veto the wishes of the other. Read the TA. Ya, I think you are right about this.

The seniority list arbitration is separate from contract ratification, but it's implementation is dependent on ratification. Exactly! As Prater tried to tell the west many years ago it is non-ratifiable so how is this nic a good thing for the west?

Unless you've been too busy to read the news, Judge Silver will define the enforce-ability of the Nic. She will tell me I have to vote yes on a contract proposal? Wow this is a real change in the RLA I didn't think she was that powerful!!! I'm still going to vote no though.


USAPA pushed for single-carrier status so that they could attempt an unfettered land-grab, but alas they didn't think things through completely. In demolishing the wall of separation, they left themselves open to a DFR I agree with this, we should have stayed alpa, as much as I dislike that group, and never ratified a contract to avoid this dfr stuff when they chose to support one side at the expense of the other. Now millions of extorted dollars later, they are being told in no uncertain terms that they must abide by the arbitration when did this happen? which will include presenting and defending the Nicolau list

Once the integration and the Joint CBA is ratified This might happen in four to five years when enough of us eastinfections are dead or retired, good luck though, they can go back to their slimy, corrupt business as usual that the east seems so willing to accept.

In about five years you west guys and gals will get your nic so calm down already.

 

[charlie2]

It is not widely knowed or acknowledged that us southern folks has totally different ideas about the Second War for Independence, what yuall calls the Civil War. We knows it got sumpin to do with this incident and there is more information yuall needs to know.

[FONT=&quot]Battle of Fort Sumter[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Battle of Fort Sumter (April 12–13, 1861) was the bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter, near Charleston, South Carolina, that started the American Civil War. Following declarations of secession by seven Southern states, South Carolina demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, 1860, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surreptitiously moved his small command from the indefensible Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress controlling the entrance of Charleston Harbor. An attempt by U.S. President James Buchanan to reinforce and resupply Anderson, using the unarmed merchant ship Star of the West, failed when it was fired upon by shore batteries on January 9, 1861. South Carolina authorities then seized all Federal property in the Charleston area, except for Fort Sumter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]During the early months of 1861, the situation around Fort Sumter increasingly began to resemble a siege. In March, Brig. Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard, the first general officer of the newly formed Confederate States of America, was placed in command of Confederate forces in Charleston. Beauregard energetically directed the strengthening of batteries around Charleston harbor aimed at Fort Sumter. Conditions in the fort grew dire as the Federals rushed to complete the installation of additional guns. Anderson was short of men, food, and supplies.[/FONT]


What this here article don’t say is that there was a little “gob********************e” Yankee Sergeant named Cleary out on that fort. He done got up on the ramparts of Fort Sumter and dropped his drawers and mooned the peace loving and gentle people of Charleston South Carolina. Well sir they was mortified and consternated and then just so danged mad that the Honorable Southern General PGT Beauregard had no choice but to defend the honor of the good people of Charleston so done gone and ordered his artillery batteries to open fire.

So there it is… Mike Cleary’s kin done started the Second War for independence, (that’s the civil war for you Yankees..)

I knew Cleary was Johnny Reb hater!

 

[imacdog]

I love it how a couple of westicles make a post about how bad the east is and the usual suspects- fubiJERK and the Geneitsl jump on the band wagon. Loosers!
AWA pilots were and still are the doormat to this industry. Drug dealers, strike breakers, you name it these clowns have done it. They are lucky to have survived to this point. Their precious PHX base is worthless and they were banging on deaths door in 2005 when Lakefitld put the deal together. That's a fact!

Learn to spell.

 

[charlie2]

Learn to spell.

Seriously? That's the best you got?

 

[captfred]

I know I will blasted here for lowering the bar, whatever that bar is. Yea darn those people buying tickets always looking for a lower price, funny over on the other place a pilot is trying buy a ticket for his girlfriend to go to SNF. He is asking for advice on how to get the lowest cost ticket.

De-reg has made the industry we have today and most of the people posting here today would not be pilots without de-reg.

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. De-reg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Still is still a great way to make a living with wage in the upper brakets of all wage earners in the world

I agree YIP.

 

[PCL_128]

Welcome to the club PCL, here I thought I was the source of the problem.

As often as I disagree with you, you are right about one thing: pilots don't like to hear the truth. They'd rather live in a fantasy world where they can just make demands and get what they want in a vacuum.

 

[waveflyer]

What kind of BS defensive projection is that?

Your pilot group turning down raises that Parker had on the table is much different than an upstart or smaller carrier's pilot group not having the economic leverage to get better. Raising the bar is VERY tough- you can't just turn your back on raises over an emotional integration.

Kind of like America West and Valujet (i mean Airtran) was when USAIR, United and Delta went into Ch 11. Thanks PFT_128 for being part of the problem. Your Airline started this and it all started when you went to Gulfstream. You are the problem. Thanks for the suffering your kind has created for all the real pilots that got hired at real airlines. PFT and mergers are the only way a tool like you can get hired. You are an ALPA hypocrite and you are now complaining about something you were part of starting.

M

 

[pilotyip]

Learn to spell.

Oh my Gad, the speeling poilce

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling as ipmorantt! If you can raed tihs forwrad it.

For someone trying to put across a point, it is the message, not the speeling on FI.

 

[Scoot 11]

I love it how a couple of westicles make a post about how bad the east is and the usual suspects- fubiJERK and the Geneitsl jump on the band wagon. Loosers!

LOL! At least if you're going to insult someone spell it right, dickhead!
LOSER. You should know it well. Especially if you're an east pilot.

AWA pilots were and still are the doormat to this industry. Drug dealers, strike breakers, you name it these clowns have done it. They are lucky to have survived to this point. Their precious PHX base is worthless and they were banging on deaths door in 2005 when Lakefitld put the deal together. That's a fact!

LOL! Again priceless! Who was the guy who shot a hole in the side of a jet? Who was a guy who got arrested for threatening a TSA agent in PHL with an ax?
Keep em coming. I love this stuff.
BTW, how's it feel to make just as much as a 3rd year SWA f/o finally after 25 years as an airbus captain?
East pilots are a disgrace to this profession. You should be ashamed of yourself.
And for the love of all things man, learn how to spell!

 

[suupah]

The Easties are complete wheenies. They have "sullied" themselves because they agreed to something, didn't like the outcome, and then turned into complete turds. A handshake from them or a signature means NOTHING. They deserve their low pay.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I can't believe i'm saying this, but i agree.

 

[livin'thesim]

It only takes one "O" to spell 'loser'.

 

[Fubijaakr]

As others have pointed out, the Pickleballers are so adamantly opposed to the BINDING arbitration award (something they agreed to in advance, BTW) they are willing to accept substandard wages indefinitely.

As a result, they are the WORST drag on the industry short of Virgin and Allegiant.

No amount of deflection by MCDU and his ilk can change that.

 

[Crzipilot]

Kind of like America West and Valujet (i mean Airtran) was when USAIR, United and Delta went into Ch 11. Thanks PFT_128 for being part of the problem. Your Airline started this and it all started when you went to Gulfstream. You are the problem. Thanks for the suffering your kind has created for all the real pilots that got hired at real airlines. PFT and mergers are the only way a tool like you can get hired. You are an ALPA hypocrite and you are now complaining about something you were part of starting.

M

.....

 

[Scoot 11]

As others have pointed out, the Pickleballers are so adamantly opposed to the BINDING arbitration award (something they agreed to in advance, BTW) they are willing to accept substandard wages indefinitely.

As a result, they are the WORST drag on the industry short of Virgin and Allegiant.

No amount of deflection by MCDU and his ilk can change that.

I'm finding it very ironic that MCDU was a Gulfstream Academy pilot, then has the stones to come here and lecture the rest of us on the industry.:laugh:

 

[Fubijaakr]

I'm finding it very ironic that MCDU was a Gulfstream Academy pilot, then has the stones to come here and lecture the rest of us on the industry.:laugh:

It is amazing, isn't it?

 

[waveflyer]

Fubi- VA pays better than usair-
Their stand really needs to stop

 

[Taco Rocket]

Fubi- VA pays better than usair-
Their stand really needs to stop

You seem to take the position that those guys enjoy making the salaries they do.

 

[Lampshade]

You seem to take the position that those guys enjoy making the salaries they do.

It definitely isn't a top priority to get them changed now is it? If they wanted to get a new contract asap they would recall USAPA's leadership and then move forward. Years later not one recall, I infer almost everyone is happy with status quo ( lowest in the industry).

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi- VA pays better than usair-
Their stand really needs to stop

Correct times 2. Talk about shooting the whole industry in the foot.

 

[imacdog]

Seriously? That's the best you got?

If someone can't spell on a third grade English level then I don't take their opinions too seriously.

 

[pilotyip]

If someone can't spell on a third grade English level then I don't take their opinions too seriously.

Hey thatr is great news, I made it to fourth garde, I ahver to be an expert.

 

[Bringupthebird]

In about five years you west guys and gals will get your nic so calm down already.

That's USAPA's problem. They wanted to have control over the union, but didn't want to represent all the pilots fairly. I guess somebody should have sat those kids down and explained how unions work.

If you wanted the west to wait 5 years, you should have rejected USAPA and let the west file it's DFR with ALPA national.

(Hint: ALPA would have combined both sides under trusteeship, signed the Joint CBA and thrown the combined pilot group back into the sea to duke it out.)

You do know that the difference in upgrade time for angry F/O's is less than 2 years between Nic and no Nic, right? Ask Cleary about that.

 

[charlie2]

That's USAPA's problem. They wanted to have control over the union, but didn't want to represent all the pilots fairly. I guess somebody should have sat those kids down and explained how unions work.

If you wanted the west to wait 5 years, you should have rejected USAPA and let the west file it's DFR with ALPA national. Maybe we should have but national gave the nic to the company so how would the alpa awa guys have any chance on winning a dfr against alpa?

(Hint: ALPA would have combined both sides under trusteeship, signed the Joint CBA and thrown the combined pilot group back into the sea to duke it out.) Hint: We knew this. Duke it out? Don't get what your trying to say, if national did this then we would be working under the kirby crap that the west loves so much, with the nic list and many of us were afraid that was going to happen. We were watching national remove our reps who were voted in by the membership so why would they have stopped there? We really thought we had to get rid of the alpa national problem. Ask APA, SWAPA , Teamsters, ALPA guys if they think their union is perfect. Ours isn't either.

You do know that the difference in upgrade time for angry F/O's is less than 2 years between Nic and no Nic, right? Ask Cleary about that. Yep, two years, that's all some had left except that the age 65 thing changed that paradigm. Pilots will never willingly give up one day of seniority and you think two years is good with us? When you finally get your nic and I'm retired come knocking on my door to try and get some of my pension. Everyone knows you have my adress and social security number.

Wait a minute I don't have a pension except from the Marine Corps.

 

[waveflyer]

You seem to take the position that those guys enjoy making the salaries they do.

No- but east pilots aren't doing anything to even get the ball rolling- they can't- a JCBA means accepting Nic-

Can someone from the east answer? How long will this go on?

Snap back isn't going to happen, so what's the next move?

Those contract improvements were on the table four years ago. FOUR.

 

[charlie2]

No- but east pilots aren't doing anything to even get the ball rolling- they can't- a JCBA means accepting Nic- That's the point, we don't think we do have to accept the nic for more than one reason.

Can someone from the east answer? How long will this go on? Like I said in about five years there will be enough westies + neutrals (new hires) to be the majority.

Snap back isn't going to happen, so what's the next move? So Kasher called you and told you his answer...good one.

Those contract improvements were on the table four years ago. FOUR. They were not improvements unless you are looking at the pay rate section only which were tiny "improvements" but there is much more in a contract than that. There were parts that would have been devistating to both sides i.e. no utilization rates. We won an arbitration against management for violating the easts current rates recently so if it wasn't even in the contract to begin with what do you think management would do? Bingo you are right they would do what they want and have low rates for mainline aircraft. SWA have very high rates but our managemnt team must think they are stupid. There is only one way an aircraft produces revenue.

It has to be flying.

 

[waveflyer]

So are you resigned to accepting Nic?
And apologies- Im not completely informed- I thought snap back being denied had already happened-
What is taking so long?

And on a side note- why do judges always seem to take their time with labor improvements, but can be quick on the draw with cuts?
I wish we could sue the judges sometimes- if he hasn't made a decision yet- he certainly appears to be complicit with Parker- or paid off

 

[charlie2]

So are you resigned to accepting Nic? Ya in about five years.
And apologies- Im not completely informed- I thought snap back being denied had already happened-
What is taking so long? No one knows, final briefs were given to him June 2010 after a six month arbitration.

And on a side note- why do judges always seem to take their time with labor improvements, but can be quick on the draw with cuts? No kiddin! it took the judge two months for him to slap a worthless injunction on us but we can't even get an answer one way or the other from the LOA 93 arb. BTW we don't consider it a snap back technically speaking but rather an experation of a pay "freeze". We will probably lose this but tell us already!!!
I wish we could sue the judges sometimes- if he hasn't made a decision yet- he certainly appears to be complicit with Parker- or paid off

Maybe but in my opinion both would have more to lose than gain.