How USAPA's futile stand exacerbates the AA bankruptcy

[bigtexpilot]

(From USAPA's website):
Grievance Committee Chair Tracy Parrella provided the following information during today's BPR Special Meeting.

• Although the Union does not discuss arbitrators' decisions when in a draft form, we have very unusual and extenuating circumstances, which we believe dictate a change in our long standing practice of maintaining strict confidentiality -- for this specific dispute only.
  • Arbitrator Kasher suffered a very serious medical emergency approximately two weeks ago. He is recovering; however, he informed both USAPA and the Company that he would not continue his work until released from his doctor to do so.
  • During the second week of November a draft decision was released to the parties, and the Union requested an Executive Session, which was scheduled for December 13. Obviously, that has now been postponed indefinitely.
  • Unfortunately, the Union did not prevail.
• It appears that the Arbitrator found that we did not carry our burden of proof.
  • In order to prevail in this grievance ALPA's negotiators were required to do the following:
    1. The ALPA negotiators must have intended to have the pay restored on January 1, 2010; and
    2. The ALPA negotiators were required to clearly convey and communicate this to the Company negotiators during the course of negotiations.
• We were able to present only one negotiator.
  • The former ALPA negotiator testified that he had communicated these points to the Company; however, he was unable to produce any notes to substantiate his testimony.
  • The Company produced three negotiators who were able to support their testimony with contemporaneous notes taken during ALPA's presentation of the pay reduction proposal, which contradicted the testimony of the Union witness.
• We are still in the early stages of planning our strategy for the Executive Session, but it is unlikely that we will be able to get the Arbitrator to reverse his decision.
• We will ask the Arbitrator to clarify several issues in the draft decision.
• We do not see any grounds to appeal his decision to federal court.
• Given the very recent receipt of the decision and the delicate procedural stage, we do not want to discuss this any further at this point, but we will give more detail after the Executive Session has taken place and the final decision has been issued, at which time the entire record will be immediately made available to all pilots.

Despite justifiable disappointment with the apparent rejection of the Union's grievance in LOA-93, we caution that no pilot may engage in any slowdown or other interference with normal operations. The injunction issued by the United States District Court remains in effect and continues to prohibit each pilot from engaging in any slowdown, strike, work stoppage, sick-out, work to rule campaign, or any other concerted refusal to perform normal pilot operations in violation of the RLA. The injunction does not diminish or interfere with the duty of a pilot in command to insure the safety of his or her passengers and equipment, but safety concerns may not be used as an excuse to engage in any slowdown or other concerted refusal to perform normal pilot operations.​

 

[Taco Rocket]

Is this true? Does this mean they had to rely on ALPA people to prove their case?

Now I understand why this didn't happen....

 

[waveflyer]

Well, apparently all I had to do was ask-

Is waiting 5 years under LOA 93 still wise?
Why the 5 years to begin with? What's to be gained?

 

[TWA Dude]

Is this true? Does this mean they had to rely on ALPA people to prove their case?
.

They're referring to the former East negotiators when the East was Alpa.

 

[Soulfly]

.....

 

[Guppiedriver]

Is this true? Does this mean they had to rely on ALPA people to prove their case?

Now I understand why this didn't happen....

uSAPa asked all of the former east ALPA negotiators to testify in the arbitration. Only one volunteered and he didn't have any notes from the LOA 93 proceedings. The other two refused to lie under oath.

 

[Ocity]

uSAPa asked all of the former east ALPA negotiators to testify in the arbitration. Only one volunteered and he didn't have any notes from the LOA 93 proceedings. The other two refused to lie under oath.

Well, I guess I was wrong...at least TWO East pilots have a shred of integrity. That's a lot more than I thought.

 

[cactusboy53]

Is this true? Does this mean they had to rely on ALPA people to prove their case?

Now I understand why this didn't happen....

Dude;
Let it go. ALPA National is not to blame for all the mis-steps of the US Air pilots. You really need to read up on how you lost your pensions, how you got to LOA 93, etc.

CB

 

[Taco Rocket]

Dude;
Let it go. ALPA National is not to blame for all the mis-steps of the US Air pilots. You really need to read up on how you lost your pensions, how you got to LOA 93, etc.

CB

Would you want ALPA on property? Do you see this happening?

 

[cactusboy53]

Would you want ALPA on property? Do you see this happening?

Perhaps later. It depends on what happens with ALPA & the TWA DFR lawsuit / damages / appeal. While ALPA has some appeal as a National "union", ALPA's main focus in the past 20 years is more about how much dues money can they get vs. representing a body of pilots to get the very best contract (IMHO). Further, IF we merger with AA...there is no way USAPA or ALPA survive as the CBA in the merged pilot group.

The fact remains that we (all US Airways pilots) can gain control over our independent union if we work together. Doing so will be the QUICKEST way to a new contract. This rudderless ship has run aground, and the captain is still barking orders (like the ship is still moving somewhere).

LURKERS: Are you willing to acquiesce that the Nicolau arbitrated seniority list is the ONLY list that LCC / USAPA can legally use? Are you ready for a new contract that is at least better than the current AWA contract with perhaps DAL +1 wages? Are you ready for a change to a more positively controlled union vs. the stinking soap opera that ours has become?

GO TO: WWW.REFORMUSAPA.COM

1. Make sure that you are a Member in Good Standing.
2. Complete the three petitions on the website above, and mail them in.
3. Pay attention to upcoming elections.
4. VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!
5. Participate and volunteer on a committee if you have the time.

We can do this together, OR you can sit and watch the "ship" be destroyed on the coral reef. Your choice.

 

[charlie2]

Perhaps later. It depends on what happens with ALPA & the TWA DFR lawsuit / damages / appeal. While ALPA has some appeal as a National "union", ALPA's main focus in the past 20 years is more about how much dues money can they get vs. representing a body of pilots to get the very best contract (IMHO). Further, IF we merger with AA...there is no way USAPA or ALPA survive as the CBA in the merged pilot group.

The fact remains that we (all US Airways pilots) can gain control over our independent union if we work together. Doing so will be the QUICKEST way to a new contract. This rudderless ship has run aground, and the captain is still barking orders (like the ship is still moving somewhere).

LURKERS: Are you willing to acquiesce that the Nicolau arbitrated seniority list is the ONLY list that LCC / USAPA can legally use?
We really do prefer to wait for the courts decision on this one. I really don't think the word "legal" applies here either.

Are you ready for a new contract that is at least better than the current AWA contract with perhaps DAL +1 wages? Are you ready for a change to a more positively controlled union vs. the stinking soap opera that ours has become?
Our ALPA experience was also a soap opera. APA has been one as well for the past few years. SWAPA is really doing well with their merger aren't they! My buddy at United is so proud of his union he is glowing with pride...he just can't stop saying nice things about ALPA. ALPA did big things for AWA the proof is the current CBA they are working under.

GO TO: WWW.REFORMUSAPA.COM

1. Make sure that you are a Member in Good Standing.
2. Complete the three petitions on the website above, and mail them in.
3. Pay attention to upcoming elections.
4. VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!
5. Participate and volunteer on a committee if you have the time.

I agree with 1,3,4,5 but I think only westies will do the DOH petition...with a few exceptions of course.

We can do this together, OR you can sit and watch the "ship" be destroyed on the coral reef. Your choice.

USAPA is our pilots and if we merge we will have a differant name for our new union but guess what it will still be our pilots so I don't think it will be "destroyed".

 

[cactusboy53]

USAPA is our pilots and if we merge we will have a differant name for our new union but guess what it will still be our pilots so I don't think it will be "destroyed".

Thanks for being frank and honest. Have you completed the two other petitions? If not, now is the time to get it done.

CB

 

[Bringupthebird]

Hint: We knew this. Duke it out? Don't get what your trying to say, if national did this then we would be working under the kirby crap that the west loves so much, with the nic list and many of us were afraid that was going to happen. We were watching national remove our reps who were voted in by the membership so why would they have stopped there? We really thought we had to get rid of the alpa national problem. Ask APA, SWAPA , Teamsters, ALPA guys if they think their union is perfect. Ours isn't either.

No, you'd be negotiating at least your second contract and be far ahead of where you are now wrt seat/equipment. You were wrong, you didn't have an ALPA problem, you had a foolish emotional pilot problem (that grew out of an apathetic pilot problem that allowed a few to wield disproportionate influence and promote their agenda).

APA - retained a pension.

SWAPA - protected both their pilots jobs AND paychecks.

Teamsters - UPS pay rates - 'nuff said.

ALPA - still around and fighting the fight and maybe winning a few rounds.

USAPA - failed to produce anything and took in over $16M over it's lifespan to do it. Not only far from perfect - an unmitigated disaster!

As a side note, please learn how to enclose quotes. Your red print is too tedious to reply to.

 

[charlie2]

No, you'd be negotiating at least your second contract and be far ahead of where you are now wrt seat/equipment. You were wrong, you didn't have an ALPA problem, you had a foolish emotional pilot problem (that grew out of an apathetic pilot problem that allowed a few to wield disproportionate influence and promote their agenda).

APA - retained a pension.

SWAPA - protected both their pilots jobs AND paychecks.

Teamsters - UPS pay rates - 'nuff said.

ALPA - still around and fighting the fight and maybe winning a few rounds.

USAPA - failed to produce anything and took in over $16M over it's lifespan to do it. Not only far from perfect - an unmitigated disaster!

As a side note, please learn how to enclose quotes. Your red print is too tedious to reply to.

Then don't reply.

 

[charlie2]

Thanks for being frank and honest. Have you completed the two other petitions? If not, now is the time to get it done.

CB

I'm looking at them and probably will. I think any airline union could use improvements and USAPA definitley could.

 

[Flybywire44]

Perhaps later. It depends on what happens with ALPA & the TWA DFR lawsuit / damages / appeal. While ALPA has some appeal as a National "union", ALPA's main focus in the past 20 years is more about how much dues money can they get vs. representing a body of pilots to get the very best contract (IMHO). Further, IF we merger with AA...there is no way USAPA or ALPA survive as the CBA in the merged pilot group.

The fact remains that we (all US Airways pilots) can gain control over our independent union if we work together. Doing so will be the QUICKEST way to a new contract. This rudderless ship has run aground, and the captain is still barking orders (like the ship is still moving somewhere).

LURKERS: Are you willing to acquiesce that the Nicolau arbitrated seniority list is the ONLY list that LCC / USAPA can legally use? Are you ready for a new contract that is at least better than the current AWA contract with perhaps DAL +1 wages? Are you ready for a change to a more positively controlled union vs. the stinking soap opera that ours has become?

GO TO: WWW.REFORMUSAPA.COM

1. Make sure that you are a Member in Good Standing.
2. Complete the three petitions on the website above, and mail them in.
3. Pay attention to upcoming elections.
4. VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!
5. Participate and volunteer on a committee if you have the time.

I'll wait for APA to takeover.
We can do this together, OR you can sit and watch the "ship" be destroyed on the coral reef. Your choice.

My friend, APA will take over well before USAPA fails. The arbitrates list will stand in the Merger and all will be well because AMR retirements and East retirements will take care of the East pilots who remain. :smash:

 

[Taco Rocket]

My friend, APA will take over well before USAPA fails. The arbitrates list will stand in the Merger and all will be well because AMR retirements and East retirements will take care of the East pilots who remain. :smash:

Assuming another merger and assuming APA is the bargaining agent, why would they be bound to accept an arbitration from two unions ago? If it's not implemented at the point of an hypothetical APA merger would union #3 be required to take it? (unchartered waters)

Can anyone provide a factual (non emotional) answer? I know that's hard on this board.

 

[cactusboy53]

Assuming another merger and assuming APA is the bargaining agent, why would they be bound to accept an arbitration from two unions ago? If it's not implemented at the point of an hypothetical APA merger would union #3 be required to take it? (unchartered waters)

Can anyone provide a factual (non emotional) answer? I know that's hard on this board.

Because the courts will ultimately make it law (although it's a pity that you have to be instructed to do so). No arbitrated list has ever been vacated, set aside, etc. EVER. Mike and Randy have even said so in a publication years ago.

Yes it is unchartered waters, but the ATTEMPT by USAPA to put ANYTHING other than an unrestricted Nicolau list is AGAIN grounds for another DFR. USAPA is already under the gun for ONE INJUNCTION. Just how difficult do you think it will be to get the courts to do another one (based on USAPA's history of constantly trying to dick the West pilot group at ANY and ALL costs)?

Give it a shot Taco. I'll bet you a six pack of soda USAPA will be shot down legally (again). I continue to be amazed the the complete lack of integrity by your collective group.

 

[Dan Roman]

Assuming another merger and assuming APA is the bargaining agent, why would they be bound to accept an arbitration from two unions ago? If it's not implemented at the point of an hypothetical APA merger would union #3 be required to take it? (unchartered waters)

Can anyone provide a factual (non emotional) answer? I know that's hard on this board.

Well nobody "knows" what will happen, but I think it is a safe bet that no bankruptcy court or Board of Director would ever a approve a deal that would not include the seniority issue solved before putting the two airlines together. Otherwise the new airline would be just agreeing to years of litigation and trying to operate with a major handicap that would prevent the new airline from reaching it's full potential.

Similar to why USAir currently could never get a BOD of a healthy airline to merge with them because it would not be in the stockholders best interest of a healthy airline to take on the litigation and irrational behavior that USAPA has exhibited.

USAPA is a problem that no airline would want to be infected by.

 

[Taco Rocket]

USAPA is a problem that no airline would want to be infected by.

So true. Which is why I don't understand why management isn't working on its own solution. Or maybe they are?

There's the obvious whipsaw factor, but that will only go so far. I agree that this mess has and will probably prevent another merger with US, if USAPA stays in its current form.

So when will management figure something out? Obviously everyone expects management to seek the big payday, and this mess is standing in their way.