How proud are GJ pilots?

[flyhawk]

Resocha,

Skyboy is correct. It was the writing / message in the avatar that I had a problem with, not the picture itself. I see that idiot finally removed it. I guess the Moderator hit him up. Good! Like Skyboy said, it's the message to younger viewers that I had a problem with. See ya!

 

[Resocha]

Maybe so, but only because you guys were too good to fly a fifty seat jet or a turboprop with a mainline name and paycheck for that matter.

Why are all you guys so offended at one airline list, when it is what all you guys advertise.

Please don't make assumptions. I flew 50-seat jets and turboprops. I'm not offended by any of it. I'm simply stating a fact that the regionals exist to reduce the cost of the major. That was true when I worked there, and it's true now.

I just find it ironic that people slam GJ guys for doing exactly what we all do - take the job that's offered. People can stand on their high horse and claim they would be too good to work for (fill in the blank) company, but the reality is that if you work for any company that accepts a lower wage or decreased work rules, you're just as guilty as the GJ guys.

We're all the same. GJ guys will work non-union, United guys will sell out their retirees. We're all in it for ourselves, today, and if you believe otherwise, you're sucking on some Great Pilot Brotherhood Fantasy Teet.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Maybe so, but only because you guys were too good to fly a fifty seat jet or a turboprop with a mainline name and paycheck for that matter.

Why are all you guys so offended at one airline list, when it is what all you guys advertise.

Cripes, some of you really need a history lesson!!

The whole reason my airlines flying was outsourced to the regionals is NOT because we refused to fly the RJ...It was because we refused to fly the RJ for the dirtbag wages that the regionals would!

We had F-28 pay still in the contract, a plane smaller than many of the current RJ's, only problem was that pay was still 30% HIGHER than what they are paying the current RJ crowd.

This GJ thing is simply the natural progression of the process started then. In fact on another message board I got hammered 5 years ago for stating the obvious, When they are done outsourcing us (majors) they will outsource you (regionals). I believe the RJ guys reply was something to the effect of "It will never happen old man, we are too valuable to mgmt!!"

Jeebus!!! You boys need to figure out who the real enemy is here! And it isn't some clod flying an RJ around for a non-union company!

 

[KingKong2]

GJ guys will work non-union.....

http://www.teamsterslocal618.org/news-and-events.html

President Dan Heumann reports that the N.M.B. (National Mediation Board) has announced the election for Teamster Local 618 representation for the Go-Jet Pilot group. Ballots will be mailed on February 1, 2006 and the voting period will expire on February 23, 2006 at 2:00 p.m. Eastern time, with ballots being counted immediately thereafter.
Teamsters Local 618 is the only Labor Organization on the ballot. President Dan Heumann stated that this organizing drive has been a long battle that appears to be coming to a conclusion. We hear at Local 618 are very excited about the opportunity to represent this group and look forward to continuing to bargain and obtain a good labor agreement. President Heumann will be in Washington D.C. for the final vote count to ensure that our future members rights are protected.

 

[Crossky]

YGTBFKM. Offended by the avatar of the pope? What about all of the sleezy avatars of women (including mine)? Why are those morally acceptable? No good catholics have complained about mine.

Why do you think the sleazy avatars of women are morally acceptable? They aren't to me (and I'm not Catholic). Now don't go all brokeback mtn. on me. I certainly do appreciate the female form.

 

[007]

Jeebus!!! You boys need to figure out who the real enemy is here! And it isn't some clod flying an RJ around for a non-union company!

I agree but
You started the fingerpointing.

 

[buscap]

what goes around......

As pilot who has most definitely benefitted from the RJs being placed at the regionals, I must agree with anyonw who says our reaction to *************************s is the "Pot calling the......".

However, we must all remember that this is business. There is no such thing as unity outside of ones own pilot group. We all work for COMPETING companies, and are thus competitors with each other. We share common interests at a Professional level, i.e. safety standards. Other than that, it's business.

The ************************* pilots are not SCABS. They have not crossed a picket line. They are willing to fly for less money and lower quality of life than someone else. Sounds a lot like about 80% of the Pilots at the "Majors". How many Major Airline pilots have quit their jobs rather than work for less money and a lower quality of life?...None.

My main point is this....Save the word SCAB for when it's appropriate. The way things are going we may have reason to use it as originally intended. It would be a shame to have the true meaning dilluted when you are screaming "Scab" and throwing that rotten apple over the chain-linked fence.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I agree but
You started the fingerpointing.

Went back and reviewed my post.....Nope no finger pointing at all in there.

I just corrected your first statement. Simple fact is that my pilot group tried to secure the RJ flying on our seniority list, The regionals decided that they didn't mind working for scraps, the mainlines would not fly them for scraps, so of course mgmt. put the RJ all to the regionals.

Justifying to yourself that you got all those jets because we (Mainlines) refused to fly them is no different than what the GJ guys are doing. They are willing to fly them cheaper than you are, plain and simple.

What got the RJ's to the regionals in the first place, is and will continue to be the reason that GJ exists today. Make no mistake, they are but the first in a long line. Anytime the regional guys try to undo their initial mistake of flying RJ's for peanuts, mgmt. will just go find another guy hungry for the scraps.

Why do you think the regionals are now looking for guys with 500 hours TT? It sure isn't because there is a lack of high time pilots out there! Very few of the high timers will fly for the wages that are being paid.

As it stands now, Regional pilots are doomed to forever be RJ pilots for low wages, There are very few narrowbody Major seats out there anymore.

Edit: Do not take this as blaming the guys flying the airplanes. I just get all wound up when I see what is happening. To put it in perspective, I was paid almost as much as a current 70 seat RJ Captain 9 years ago for the left seat in a Turboprop. As long as there are pilots(and their MEC's) willing to fly for the wages, It will never get better. The only pilots that I see that really cheese me off are the 20 somethings that have a huge ego, next to no time, and think that flying an RJ for the current pay is "Something Special"

As long as that attitude exists, things will only get worse for the professional pilot.

 

[Resocha]

Why do you think the sleazy avatars of women are morally acceptable? They aren't to me (and I'm not Catholic). Now don't go all brokeback mtn. on me. I certainly do appreciate the female form.

I have no moral problems whatsoever with the partially clad female body, if it's in good taste. Unfortunately, taste is subjective, and what I may define as good taste, someone else may not. Simply because a woman's clothing does not cover her entire body does not make her, nor those her present her image, immoral. Do you find my avatar offensive? Do you find women on the beach in bikinis immoral?

 

[007]

Justifying to yourself that you got all those jets because we (Mainlines) refused to fly them is no different than what the GJ guys are doing. They are willing to fly them cheaper than you are, plain and simple.

As it stands now, Regional pilots are doomed to forever be RJ pilots for low wages, There are very few narrowbody Major seats out there anymore.

What do you mean by, "that attitude" it's not like we have a choice. As long as airlines like that keep popping up with more CFI with SJS the race will continue.

What I meant, was, that you guys should have flown them for peanuts and worked the pay out later. Once at mainline, they would have stayed there.
"one list" remember, it seems to work in Europe, why not here?
I don't know.

"forever RJ pilots" don't stoop to that level, I had a CAL pilot read me riot act in the jumpseat once, just because he was a "major airline pilot".

Gave me a real sour taste for that statement. Last time I looked people were still retiring (which is also the reason these idiots accept these jobs)

PS with the fingerpointing I meant resocha

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Gave me a real sour taste for that statement. Last time I looked people were still retiring (which is also the reason these idiots accept these jobs)

Retirements are not helping the situation right now. The "RJ" keeps being redefined as mgmt. sees fit and the MEC's continue to have SJS and accepting larger and larger aircraft for low low rates. The CRJ 900 and EMB 170 and 190 are DC-9 and 737 sized aircraft. Once these aircraft start to fly for the regionals in large numbers (more coming on line every day) there will no longer be any 73 or a-319 sized airplanes at the majors.

On the current path, we will end up with a zillion RJ's and a few widebody international jobs. The only hope is the passengers. Last week I rode home on an EMB-145. 2 hour flight, thank goodness it was only half full so I had enough room left to be able to move by the end of the flight. I have never heard so much complaining about an airplane before(And that includes my TP days). I think at one time or another I heard every passenger make a disgruntled statement about how cramped and uncomfortable the plane was.

So far ticket price keeps em riding those long legs on the RJ's. Sooner or later maybe the passenger will vote with their wallet and demand a larger plane for the longer legs......but I am not counting on it.

 

[007]

On the current path, we will end up with a zillion RJ's and a few widebody international jobs. The only hope is the passengers. Last week I rode home on an EMB-145. 2 hour flight, thank goodness it was only half full so I had enough room left to be able to move by the end of the flight. I have never heard so much complaining about an airplane before(And that includes my TP days). I think at one time or another I heard every passenger make a disgruntled statement about how cramped and uncomfortable the plane was.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you have to understand is that everytime you tell an RJ pilot that "you'll never be a major airline pilot", is that we don't take as a statement as to the industry as a whole but as us being treated a second class citizens.

Also that goes back to the age old argument. Since they are lowly paid jobs should we not accept them. Find another career? With what money? Only the rich kids can do that and they can afford to go Mesa and so on.
I all looks a little different on our side.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Also that goes back to the age old argument. Since they are lowly paid jobs should we not accept them. Find another career? With what money? Only the rich kids can do that and they can afford to go Mesa and so on.
I all looks a little different on our side.

You just explained why this thread exists on this board. The GJ pilots have exactly the same attitude. Why can one group justify the job and then hate another group for doing the very same thing?

Mgmt. is simply playing the game by the rules that we (Airline Pilots) have allowed.

I made a choice to turn down all J4J offers that were given me after furlough, and I looked for a better choice. However I had the good fortune, or bad fortune as it were(furlough), to have enough time under my belt to be able to make that kind of decision and have choices. Plus I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time for a corporate job until I could get back to flying large airplanes. I suspect that many of the guys at GJ are simply trying to feed their families and advance their career. Right or wrong they are no different than anybody else out there right now.

We need to address the problem, not condemn the results of it. Putting some poor guy on a list for doing nothing more than accepting a job that does not involve crossing any picket line or any scab activity is hypocritical at best. Especially considering how and why all these RJ's came to be. So far many many more Airline Pilots have been hurt by "legitimate" RJ hiring practices than anything GJ has done.

This is a result of the problem, not the cause.

 

[TSA145]

Every single pilot at TSA was offered the ablity to go to GJ with longevity and were given super senority in their new hire class. There have been TSA pilots in every single GJ pilot class...(WITH longevity)



I think the Eagle guys would tell you it made no difference. Because of TSA, they still transfered active aircraft to Trans States, while AE had pilots on furlough. AMR is a holding company that own AA and AE. AA has had its routes transfer to AE and furloughed AA pilots while AE hires. Same thing with DAL and ComAir.

TSA Holding owns TSA and GJ. TSA is hiring and growing. I could be worse.

Are you F. kidding me?????
The pilots at TSA were offered max of 5 yrs longivity. some pilots at TSA have been here for 16+ years?????? To fly a CRJ700 for 2$ more with only "schedule time" pay???? Let me refresh your memory; Management came to our union and barganined a pay scale long time before Go...when they finally agreed to one, they said it would be for the 90 seater as well. We said shove it. Then Go....was created and we were "offered" nothing but an insult of just "work rules" (if that means anything to TSA Management).
Now back to the original question. Yes these Go....scums walk with their IDs hidden I HAVE SEEN IT. They can't even look at your face, damn you can't even say "*************************s" 'cause it's "censored". That's how legit they are.....

 

[PilotSkydiver]

OK.. Usually I'm a lurker and don't respond to most posts, but this time I've got to put in my .02..

First off.. I am a TSA Pilot, and an FO... so there are no Illusions about my whole stake in the matter. I read the flightinfo boards often and the biggest thing I see is people bashing "Bottom Feeders" like mesa and pinnacle, but when it comes down to it we are all pretty much "Bottom Feeders" we are all trying to feed our family and Management is laughing all the way to the bank because its now pilot against pilot and they get to wash their hands of it and spend their time devising more elaborate ways to screw with labor instead of dealing with the here and now. We are at each others throats trying to do the best we can for ourselves and our family's. Majors against Regionals, Regionals against Regionals, Mesa vs Freedom TSA vs. G0Jets, NWA vs Newco, Mesaba vs MAIR (sp), the point is that we are all fussing among ourselves for our own piece of the pie.. You know what THATS FINE!! that's what we are subposed to do but we also need to have some foresight into the future and realize that what we do now has a great impact on the future not only for ouselves but future generations.... For example.. when the majors released their scope and allowed the "RJ revolution" to be created they did what was best for them... WHO WOULDN'T.. but it has now come back and bit them in the arse. OF COURSE we know that now and being armchair QB it is easy to see that, but they had no idea what the ramifications would be when this took place or that they would be in their current situation... If you would have told me 10 years ago that an RJ would be flying from STL to IAD I would have called you NUTS! thats a mainline route, but yet we do it every day.. Coex flys those XR models for 3 hrs at a time, who could have forseen this... Management. that's who. You may bash management and say that their stupid, but who's got the big money, who's got the golden parachute, who just got 16% of the new United stock... Ahhhhhh now we see.. not so dumb as we thought.

When I cast my vote not to capture the G0Jet flying because the agreement was substandard. I knew the ramifications, so did everyone at TSA... some might not see it that way but they did.. The agreement would have meant a big pay increase for EVERYONE at TSA, upgrades for FO's Advancement higher pay for CAPT's by moving to the larger equipent, better schedulules etc... but we still decided to say NO!... it may have been principal, it may have been spite, it might have been thinking we would get a better deal, but I like to think it was because we were making a stand against the downward spiral of pay and benefits for professional aviatiors.. we did it for us and we did it for ALL OF YOU.. we said enough.. we took a stand, I do not regret my decision but I am dissapointed that people did not choose to stand with us, all of those that went to GJ are short sighted and all the gains they have made in the here and now are only short term.. the honeymoon with TSH will last for a while I am sure, but no mistake about this. It is still HK and he is all about the numbers and he does not care about you PERIOD. When GJ gets established it will not have industry leading contracts I guarantee it! I still have faith that the time will come that all professional aviatiors will come together to also say ENOUGH... it is unfortunately not now... no one will do it for us.. we must to it ourselves.

BTW go SEAHAWKS.... (I like the Underdogs.... heck I still belive in Labor)

 

[Fishpaw]

I just commuted out of ORD today and i walked on the e to c shuttle with two other pilots. Both had on navy uniforms but both were wearing non-uniform jackets. One guy had a brown leather jacket zipped all the way up and the other had on a black fleece, neither had id's visible. I was also looking at their bags and didn't see anything that said what company they worked for. Normally I wouldn't be looking for these things, but the a/c next to the shuttle stop was one of g0jet's and that started me thinking. What professional airline pilot dresses this way at work, and what mgmt would let them? I have nothing to do with the whole g0jet/tsa thing, but man, it must suck to have to hide your name and who you work for when you're at the airport. Some days the pride of being an airline pilot is the only thing that keeps me going. These guys definitely weren't showing any pride in themselves or their company though.

 

[007]

This is a result of the problem, not the cause.

Don't you think the line has to be drawn somewhere though?

Any ideas for a solution?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Don't you think the line has to be drawn somewhere though?

Any ideas for a solution?

In my view (such as it is!) The only way to remedy the problem is to move toward one list for all who fly under a brand. A national list would be ideal, but that will never happen. It is doubtful that we can even recover the one brand list at this point.

What is left of scope is a joke. As long as the various groups are expending all their energy vilifying (sp?) each other nothing will be accomplished. Mgmts. are picking the groups apart easily due to the fact that there is no cooperation between the pilots. Wholly owned A hates W/O B, A and B hate mainline, In some cases Mainline A hates Mainline B etc...

At present conditions, the end result will be the destruction of airline pilot as a viable career for motivated people. More mgmts. are moving toward reliance on automation for their safety nets instead of quality pilots.

This is evidenced by their continued reduction of the minimums to be hired to fly jets. They care more about how low they can drag the payscales over quality. Oddly enough, the freighters have the highest hiring standards in the industry as a whole now! Odd considering that they do not haul a single passenger.

One of two things will happen in my opinion. Either A: The career collapses to a point that no one wants to bother to spend the time and effort required to become pilots, thus forcing a wage increase to even move the airplanes. Or B: The standards are reduced to such a level that safety is entirely compromised and we see several very public and very costly accidents due to incompetence. Already we have had just a taste of such accidents and incidents, of which I do not need to mention since we all know which ones those are. So far a large number of joe public has not been hurt, but I fear it is coming in the not so distant future.

There is a way to solve the airline money loss problem, actually charge enough to cover the costs of operating! However this is killed by the preditory nature of the competeting companies. Each one figures that they can undercut the other to get the airplanes filled, and we end up with what we have now..80% plus load factors and still losing gobs of money. I flew across the country on a last minute ticket on UAL a couple of months back, $213 for LA to the east coast on a 767. If you do the math for a full airplane at those rates, they barely paid the gas for the trip, much less everything else.

It is going to take the cooperation of everyone involved, or the total failure of about half the countries airlines to level the playing field.

Of course what do I know! I just fly the things. I do know that we are only hurting ourselves by fighting each other. All the while the CEO's take home the multi million $ bonuses each quarter.

 

[temcgrew]

When I cast my vote not to capture the G0Jet flying because the agreement was substandard. I knew the ramifications, so did everyone at TSA... some might not see it that way but they did.. The agreement would have meant a big pay increase for EVERYONE at TSA, upgrades for FO's Advancement higher pay for CAPT's by moving to the larger equipent, better schedulules etc... but we still decided to say NO!... it may have been principal, it may have been spite, it might have been thinking we would get a better deal, but I like to think it was because we were making a stand against the downward spiral of pay and benefits for professional aviatiors.. we did it for us and we did it for ALL OF YOU

I do not understand how voting no helped us or any other regional airline.
We just set the standard, WE

 

[h25b]

What professional airline pilot dresses this way at work, and what mgmt would let them?

What airline pilot dresses this way ??? You must be joking. Most likely the same types that I've seen from CHQ, TSA, Air Wis, Sky West, Comair, and every other airline that employs the backpackers and frosted haired crowd.

In short, virtually every airline. So what's your point ???