How lemons can be turned into lemonade...

[RobCat]

Slow down there chief, take a deep breath, I have not worked for f9 for over a year, I am out of the airline business and very happy at NJA. However, I do have an interest because I spent 2 years there and its sad to see it come to this. I understand you want the best for your company, this is not a personal attack. I'm just saying the leader of your "family" is a criminal, a scumbag who could give a crap about you or anybody who works for f9 or midwest. He will replace the entire pilot group if he has to. Everybody I have talked to at f9 says they would rather see the place fail than to work for RAH. Does that tell you something. We are watching the demise of an airline that was at one time a great place to work. There is not going to be a common goal between RAH and frontier, morale is way too low over there. So have fun flying your 190 at panhandle rates under a certificate that was at one time an industry leader in pay and qol for airbus crews. Do you see what I am getting at?

No, I don't. You keep using words and terms like "was" and "use to". That was the past and it is proven that IT DID NOT WORK. I and we are looking to the future. But as said before if they don't want to quit and rather see the place burn it will be no sweat from the rest of RAH. F9 pilots and such will only be out of a job. We will still have our capital to reinvest somewhere else. Believe me BB already has a plan for this if it happens. RAH will still fly, they may even just buy everything left of F9 at the auction and continue with the plan. Do you agree? Is this a possibility. BTW why did you leave F9?

 

[Freightdog75]

Just a reminder to you F9 folks.......Last year you broke your contract(through 2017) with us. Just so you know, as a result 90 of US got downgraded and 150 were put on the street. Sorry, I am not a very compassionate fella with you guys these days.

 

[USMC319]

Sorry but what you had was a bankrupt company. Whos fault it was is of little concern, F9 was still bankrupt and eroding. QUOTE]

Hasn't F9 been one of the only profitable Majors over the past 7 months? In any case, I can see big troubles with this deal if all the RAH commuter pilots have the same outlook as this RobCat character.

Here is hoping for a different dance partner for Frontier. F9 needs investment capital to exit BK and continue their profitable operation. They have built one of the best and most respected brands in the industry. Until BK they had the best Airbus 320 contract in the industry. They don't need a bunch of commuter pilots drewling over flying shiney new Airbi and trying to become senior to a group of Major airline pilots. F9 has until August 11th to get a better offer. If they don't get alternative financing in this sh!tty economy then God help the proud but soon to be disgraced Frontier pilot group.

 

[RobCat]

Sorry but what you had was a bankrupt company. Whos fault it was is of little concern, F9 was still bankrupt and eroding. QUOTE]

Hasn't F9 been one of the only profitable Majors over the past 7 months? In any case, I can see big troubles with this deal if all the RAH commuter pilots have the same outlook as this RobCat character.

Here is hoping for a different dance partner for Frontier. F9 needs investment capital to exit BK and continue their profitable operation. They have built one of the best and most respected brands in the industry. Until BK they had the best Airbus 320 contract in the industry. They don't need a bunch of commuter pilots drewling over flying shiney new Airbi and trying to become senior to a group of Major airline pilots. F9 has until August 11th to get a better offer. If they don't get alternative financing in this sh!tty economy then God help the proud but soon to be disgraced Frontier pilot group.

All due respect but wasn't that reorganization done with a BB's assistance? Did you not get founding sorry financing or loans from a regional or RAH? A simple yes or no is what we sorry I am looking for?
I see its eaither Im talking over your head or Im hitting you between the eyes and you dont want to admit it. At this point I'll wave the white flag. I understand your fustration, if the tables were turned I agree I would probably feel the same way initialy. Hopefuly at some point your group will be able to see what we can be insted of what we were.

Some of those/us REGIONAL pilots are some the best and high educated aviators, businessman, and entrepreneurs. Many of us are more accomplished than you think. You are only where you are because of timing and a interview. Nothing more and nothing less. So to think you are more accomplished or better because of the A/C you fly would be and is a big mistake. We are all worker bees in the hive.

 

[RobCat]

I'm out

 

[Minimaniac]

Of course no pilot is going to say that they want to lose seniority by having some guy from a different company be put ahead of them on a seniority list. That is why street captains go to the bottom of the list, and are still resented by FO's who want to upgrade. Seniority is everything. No one wants to give it away. So, please don't call anyone on any side of this debate foolish, demented, greedy, or otherwise for hoping that they don't lose in this integration.

That said, most of us have witnessed an integration or two (or five) in our careers, and those of us who have been around understand that both sides feel they bring something advantageous to the table, and both sides feel they deserve to be at the top of the list. What you see now is posturing. We bought you! We have been doing this longer! This is my company! These are my airplanes! You wouldn't have a job if it weren't for my company! You don't deserve MY job! You get the point. We are all right. But in the end, senior, cool headed representiives from our respective unions will sit down at a table and weigh the merits of each argument. Deals will be offered to try to gain seniority over the other (fences if you put us low on your list, furlough protection if you get slotted above us). And either our two pilot groups will reach a compromise, or a questionably neutral arbitrator will be brought in to decide for us. In all truth, we know that this will go to arbitration. In the end, both sides will feel screwed. DOH will not be given. Stapling will by no means ever be considered by those in the driver's seat of this. Some whacked out combination of slotting, relative seniority, fences, and longevity pay will be scratched out.

There are a bunch of new guys who don't quite understand how this process works. If you have never been through an integration before, please try to sit idly by and watch the process happen. Emotion outbursts only fuel the dislike between the two pilot groups. The process already creates a lot of animosity, and the union posturing that lies ahead will do enough damage to last us a decade. We don't need more.

Those of you on the outside... bashing RAH or Frontier pilots doesn't help anything. This will be hashed out by about 20 pilots behind closed doors. Practically zero of the people who will decide the fate of our combined seniority list are even on this site. Your words do have consequences though. Someone will always take your ill remarks personally and end up messing up someone's commute home via jumpseat abuses. Someone will take your attacks personally, and defame your airline to strangers they meet riding in the back. Let's settle down, offer constructive advice if you have any, and try to practice restraint. A little bit of foot in mouth could help us all.

And one last thing... there is a whole generation of pilots out there who are part of the regional airline industry because that is where the jobs were. The military cut backs of the 1990's, and improved capabilities of our armed forces' aircraft have severely reduced the number of military pilots who would one day be eligible to fly for the airlines. Instead of going from the military to a major, we have been forced to follow a civilian route to acquire the time and experience the major carriers want. Don't look down on regional pilots like we are all taking some sort of shortcut to the majors. The number of military seats is small and finite. So are the number of entry level cargo positions. Being a regional pilot is the only way 80% of us could ever break into the airline industry. The hate I see for regional pilots as a whole is completely unfounded. Pass age 65 and age 70 all you want, you will have to retire someday. You may dislike the regional AIRLINES for the way their managements have cunningly danced around your scope restrictions, or replaced your aircraft with smaller ones. But do not confuse the actions of trained managers with rank and file pilots. many of us made the decision to pursue this career prior to going to college. We committed ourselves to loans and debt based on the industry 6 years before we could be considered for a regional job. As 18 year old high school students, we didn't know or couldn't even guess what the airline industry would be like in ten years, or what the internal politics were. We picked a profession, took a leap of faith, and set out to position ourselves for the career so many before us enjoyed. We had no idea, and obviously mainline guys didn't either, how the RJ would change the landscape. But it did, and the industry changed around us. We are here, and we are stuck. We are of course going to be taken advantage of by management. Most of us never sat through contract negotiations until we were firmly entrenched at our regional. So we learn the first time through. We wish we had the decades of experience that the old mainline guys had when it comes to contracts, but those guys wanted nothing to do with us, and isolated themselves from us by releasing scope. Regional pilot contracts are screwed up because of apathetic old timers who cared about making an extra dime on the way out the door. So here we are. Our regional airline industry is beginning to mature now. The quick upgrades are gone, and many of us are going to be around long enough to see the gains a contract can bring. So stop turning your backs on us. Stop villifying us. We are here to stay, and we are going to keep screwing up until major pilots start mentoring us and sharing the wisdom of contracts built over 60 years of hard work and harder fights.

 

[dougdrvr]

Out damn standing, Minimaniac. Now could you just keep the duck under control?

 

[USMC319]

I see its eaither Im talking over your head QUOTE]

Yeah I guess you are talking over my head

RAH the holding company not the commuters that it owns provided DIP financing to Frontier. They (RAH) have been earning nearly 14% interest on that money so don't think they were just being nice guys. The major claim in the whole F9 BK process was for unrealized profits from unrealized flying that one of its commuters were supposed to make flying as Frontier Express before Menke was forced to cancel the contract.

The fact of the matter is that we as pilots have very little control over the business decisions that our managements' make. We do have the ability to choose our career paths. By and large most of us worked at various commuters (like you are doing now) or did a tour in the millitary in order to get the oportunity to interview at a place like Frontier. Even at that there was not a great success rate in the hiring process. Now you guys want to bypass all that and just be integrated senior to the guys that have traveled the long hard road. (I know there are exceptions)

I would think that an arrangemrnt similar to other Major/Regional wholely-owned operations would be more appropriate. Delta/Compass for example. The Compass guys can move up to mainline and get a "Major" seniority number without interviewing. Continental and Continental Express had a similar arrangement years ago. Its a windfall for the guys that were never hired by a Major to someday become Major pilots without going through the normal process. It protects the whole group, bottom to top.

 

[Minimaniac]

Out damn standing, Minimaniac. Now could you just keep the duck under control?

I don't know who the duck is, but I agree he belongs face first in that toilet.

 

[Popeye0537]

Delta owns compass, Republic(if approved) will own you. By your logic because I have been flying since '95 I have paid my dues and deserve to be placed in the top 5% of your pilot group right? Oh no, because a fly for a commuter you have far superior flying abilities. Get over yourself!

 

[sshrae]

I think there is some misconception as to why the contract was cancelled with RAH the first time around prior to bk. The reason we were told was RAH was horrible. Bottom line was they were incredibly unreliable. Canceling flights left and right, short staffed, major maint issues, etc. That did not fit in the frontier brand then and it shouldn't now. Lets just all hope that someone else can save you guys. By the way, your "family" leader is a crook. Did I mention that already?

 

[Cardinal]

Just a reminder to you F9 folks.......Last year you broke your contract(through 2017) with us. Just so you know, as a result 90 of US got downgraded and 150 were put on the street. Sorry, I am not a very compassionate fella with you guys these days.

We insourced flying that never should have been given away, watched your APUs burn for a year, and we have the same percentage of guys on the street, including myself. :angryfire Profanity withheld only because of Minimaniac's civility.

 

[Cornelius]

Freightdog75,

It would have happened sooner or later. That's what happens when you are dependent on feed only. You are at the Major's mercy when it comes down to contract expiration or early termination time. Of course Bedford is always good about putting fees in his contracts. For example, if we cancel this acquisition deal with you guys, F9 has to pay RAH a fee (7 mil or so).

Maybe you should ask Bedford to distribute some of the fee money to the furloughed pilots that you have or the downgrades. HAHAHA, yeah right!!

I heard F9 was paying above-average fee per departure for Republic. Plain and simple, it didn't make any economic sense to continue using RAH.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Delta owns compass, Republic(if approved) will own you. By your logic because I have been flying since '95 I have paid my dues and deserve to be placed in the top 5% of your pilot group right? Oh no, because a fly for a commuter you have far superior flying abilities. Get over yourself!

There's been a lot of hiring since '95. Why are you still working for RAH 14 years later? Don't tell me it was your dream to finish your career at Republic. In '98, all they had were Saabs.

 

[Caveman]

Of course no pilot is going to say that they want to lose seniority by having some guy from a different company be put ahead of them on a seniority list. That is why street captains go to the bottom of the list, and are still resented by FO's who want to upgrade. Seniority is everything. No one wants to give it away. So, please don't call anyone on any side of this debate foolish, demented, greedy, or otherwise for hoping that they don't lose in this integration.

That said, most of us have witnessed an integration or two (or five) in our careers, and those of us who have been around understand that both sides feel they bring something advantageous to the table, and both sides feel they deserve to be at the top of the list. What you see now is posturing. We bought you! We have been doing this longer! This is my company! These are my airplanes! You wouldn't have a job if it weren't for my company! You don't deserve MY job! You get the point. We are all right. But in the end, senior, cool headed representiives from our respective unions will sit down at a table and weigh the merits of each argument. Deals will be offered to try to gain seniority over the other (fences if you put us low on your list, furlough protection if you get slotted above us). And either our two pilot groups will reach a compromise, or a questionably neutral arbitrator will be brought in to decide for us. In all truth, we know that this will go to arbitration. In the end, both sides will feel screwed. DOH will not be given. Stapling will by no means ever be considered by those in the driver's seat of this. Some whacked out combination of slotting, relative seniority, fences, and longevity pay will be scratched out.

There are a bunch of new guys who don't quite understand how this process works. If you have never been through an integration before, please try to sit idly by and watch the process happen. Emotion outbursts only fuel the dislike between the two pilot groups. The process already creates a lot of animosity, and the union posturing that lies ahead will do enough damage to last us a decade. We don't need more.

Those of you on the outside... bashing RAH or Frontier pilots doesn't help anything. This will be hashed out by about 20 pilots behind closed doors. Practically zero of the people who will decide the fate of our combined seniority list are even on this site. Your words do have consequences though. Someone will always take your ill remarks personally and end up messing up someone's commute home via jumpseat abuses. Someone will take your attacks personally, and defame your airline to strangers they meet riding in the back. Let's settle down, offer constructive advice if you have any, and try to practice restraint. A little bit of foot in mouth could help us all.

And one last thing... there is a whole generation of pilots out there who are part of the regional airline industry because that is where the jobs were. The military cut backs of the 1990's, and improved capabilities of our armed forces' aircraft have severely reduced the number of military pilots who would one day be eligible to fly for the airlines. Instead of going from the military to a major, we have been forced to follow a civilian route to acquire the time and experience the major carriers want. Don't look down on regional pilots like we are all taking some sort of shortcut to the majors. The number of military seats is small and finite. So are the number of entry level cargo positions. Being a regional pilot is the only way 80% of us could ever break into the airline industry. The hate I see for regional pilots as a whole is completely unfounded. Pass age 65 and age 70 all you want, you will have to retire someday. You may dislike the regional AIRLINES for the way their managements have cunningly danced around your scope restrictions, or replaced your aircraft with smaller ones. But do not confuse the actions of trained managers with rank and file pilots. many of us made the decision to pursue this career prior to going to college. We committed ourselves to loans and debt based on the industry 6 years before we could be considered for a regional job. As 18 year old high school students, we didn't know or couldn't even guess what the airline industry would be like in ten years, or what the internal politics were. We picked a profession, took a leap of faith, and set out to position ourselves for the career so many before us enjoyed. We had no idea, and obviously mainline guys didn't either, how the RJ would change the landscape. But it did, and the industry changed around us. We are here, and we are stuck. We are of course going to be taken advantage of by management. Most of us never sat through contract negotiations until we were firmly entrenched at our regional. So we learn the first time through. We wish we had the decades of experience that the old mainline guys had when it comes to contracts, but those guys wanted nothing to do with us, and isolated themselves from us by releasing scope. Regional pilot contracts are screwed up because of apathetic old timers who cared about making an extra dime on the way out the door. So here we are. Our regional airline industry is beginning to mature now. The quick upgrades are gone, and many of us are going to be around long enough to see the gains a contract can bring. So stop turning your backs on us. Stop villifying us. We are here to stay, and we are going to keep screwing up until major pilots start mentoring us and sharing the wisdom of contracts built over 60 years of hard work and harder fights.

I don't remember ever reading a better post on FI. Extremely well written and I agree with every single point you made. The moderators should take the last paragraph and make it a sticky for required reading. If you aren't going to be a part of the SLI negotiating, you should be. You have oustanding communication skills. Kudos.

 

[OpenClimb]

Delta owns compass, Republic(if approved) will own you. By your logic because I have been flying since '95 I have paid my dues and deserve to be placed in the top 5% of your pilot group right? Oh no, because a fly for a commuter you have far superior flying abilities. Get over yourself!

Mr. Popeye:

It's not about flying ability. It's about taking the initiative and making the sacrifices required to move up in the profession to the better jobs.

For whatever reason, you didn't do this. Maybe the lifestyle at Republic was to your liking. Maybe the money wasn't all that important for whatever reason. If you've been there for 14 years, I'm sure you had plenty of opportunities to interview and move on to bigger equipment and a major airline. But you didn't take the hit on first year pay to make the step to the next level of airline. You didn't sit reserve again. You didn't have to go through the process of hoping to upgrade again. You didn't risk being at the bottom of anyone's list and subject to furlough.

That's why you shouldn't waltz into a senior position in an Airbus fleet ahead of people who did all the things you chose not to do. I'm sure you can fly an Airbus just fine.

 

[Popeye0537]

I am making a sacrafice staying at a lower paying airline for security, to tell you the truth I was in the process of getting an interview with f9 right before things started going south. No I have not been at RAH for 14 yrs, I made poor choices in chasing money on the coperate side and was burned twice and had to start over. I just can't understand how someone who is now in the position I was several years ago deserves to reap the benefits of the company I now work for. I agree we all have the same ability when it comes to flying I just don't like the attitude. Go ahead and "Burn the place down" and enjoy that long line at the unemployment office, it's not as fun as you portray it to be, I know.

 

[sshrae]

I am making a sacrafice staying at a lower paying airline for security, to tell you the truth I was in the process of getting an interview with f9 right before things started going south. No I have not been at RAH for 14 yrs, I made poor choices in chasing money on the coperate side and was burned twice and had to start over. I just can't understand how someone who is now in the position I was several years ago deserves to reap the benefits of the company I now work for. I agree we all have the same ability when it comes to flying I just don't like the attitude. Go ahead and "Burn the place down" and enjoy that long line at the unemployment office, it's not as fun as you portray it to be, I know.

I don't think anyone at f9 is portraying it to be "fun" at the unemployment line. I just think that it might be a better alternative than working for your company. Frontier has the benefit of seeing what has already happened to Midwest, the plans of your boss are clear. He wants to replace the f9 pilot group with cheap labor, that is where you come in. Why is that so hard for RAH to realize. The airline business sucks and this is the way it is this day and age. We all have to deal with it. I can tell you that if the f9 pilots vote down the unlimited RJ flying (which I'm sure they will) and BB uses the 1113 and brings his RJ's in anyway that is scab flying.

 

[Freightdog75]

I don't think anyone at f9 is portraying it to be "fun" at the unemployment line. I just think that it might be a better alternative than working for your company. Frontier has the benefit of seeing what has already happened to Midwest, the plans of your boss are clear. He wants to replace the f9 pilot group with cheap labor, that is where you come in. Why is that so hard for RAH to realize. The airline business sucks and this is the way it is this day and age. We all have to deal with it. I can tell you that if the f9 pilots vote down the unlimited RJ flying (which I'm sure they will) and BB uses the 1113 and brings his RJ's in anyway that is scab flying.

Wow, the deal isn't completed yet, nor may it ever happen, and you guys are already throwing out the "SCAB" word.

 

[sshrae]

Wow, the deal isn't completed yet, nor may it ever happen, and you guys are already throwing out the "SCAB" word.

Correct. Nice job on that deduction.