How lemons can be turned into lemonade...

[Minimaniac]

Let me reply to your accusations with the following:

Frontier pilots will not be displaced out of their seats when the seniority list is combined, fences or no fences. At RAH, we do not have system bids for seats on a regular basis, but rather we bid upon vacancies as they arise. So long as a Frontier pilot chooses to stay in his or her seat, he/she will be able to remain in that seat. Now, if for some reason the number of Airbus airframes decreases, then those affected pilots will be displaced based on seniority. That is the way we do things at Republic. Even if something as absurd as a staple occurs and Frontier pilots end up at the bottom of the RAH list, the most senior RAH captain will not be able to knock an Airbus captain out of their seat. No Frontier pilot will be forced to take a step back. If a Frontier FO elects to upgrade to an E-jet CA slot when it comes available, that is his choice, and not something to blame the Republic pilot group for. The wages are posted, and he can make his own informed decision.

Consequently, the idea of Bedford saying that he will put junior guys in the Airbus if they take reduced airbus wages does not apply. As a single seniority list, one cannot leapfrog like that. And, as stated above, a junior RAH pilot will not be able to displace a Frontier pilot out of their seat. Bedford does not want to incur any extra training expense by having everyone play musical chairs. Take it from the pilots who work at RAH, and know how Bedford operates his company from an internal standpoint.

We need a new payscale that reflects the nature of our airline. That is why we are in section 6 negotiations. That is why we have been negotiating for years before this double whammy came our way. We are working for better wages by every legal means available. If we were happy with our wages and work rules, we would have merely signed an extension to our contract. But that hasn't happened, has it?

 

[82spukram]

This is not flame, but if I worked for F9 and read your post I would begin to think it is better to burn the place down then be part of RAH.

 

[rchcfi]

Just so you know, I have never "had it out" for any pilot group. We are all brothers aren't we?

Having said that, I attacked you because you attacked me personally. Unfortunately 80% of the RAH pilots I've run into in my career have had this same attitude. A 20% positive factor is why RAH pilots are looked upon in this industry the way they are. I know there are good guys and gals over there that would stand up and make their voice heard in defense of the defenseless. However, that number is slim. Being a regional carrier, RAH hires the less experienced, young, and "entitled" individuals. Basically it comes down to economics right? To be able to offer a major partner the lowest price, the company needs to be the industry leading bottom feeder that happen to fly E170s. I'm sure if Mesa could afford those Brazilian jets, you wouldn't have a job.

While I am keenly aware that this is Economics 101 in a free market economy, there needs to be a threshold. The underlying problem with ALL regionals is they cater to the young kids who have unlimited support from their parents and thus don't need a large salary. "It's just so damn cool to fly a big jet." Whether you like it or not, this is fact! At my carrier I see this everyday. BUT, it is most certainly not as widespread as it is at RAH.

I wish you the best of luck in your contract negotiations and hope (no pray) that you can prove me wrong! I didn't get into this business to make a regional carrier my career's final resting place.

 

[johnsonrod]

Time to be realistic vs. super-emotional...

Here we go again... Imagine if Atlas somehow merged with Alaska Airlines. Would the Alaska pilots automatically drop to the bottom of the combined list because their 737s are smaller than Atlas 747s? That is unrealistic thinking. That sounds like USAirways East thinking. Remember who is buying whom...

Instead, consider what might happen if RAH does not help Frontier through the Fall and Winter... Frontier might collapse and more pilots might lose their jobs permanently - it could happen. JetBlue might not be in a position to buy Frontier like some of their pilots want. Virgin America has no breathing room with so much debt - it would not be Frontier's white knight. Midwest pilots are in a similar situation - their jobs are disappearing by the day.

I don't work for RAH or CHQ. I don't want wages and conditions to continue their decline. Working in this industry blows from an economic perspective and it can't get much worse. I am suggesting that people need to be a little more realistic. Frontier and Midwest pilots deserve to maintain their current wages in this difficult economy but they shouldn't expect things to stay the same - that would be very unrealistic. The alternative is unemployment and very few job opportunities in a terrible job market. I agree that joining forces with your new brothers/sisters at RAH to create a better situation for all should be the long-term goal. Integration could be a bit messy, but once a framework is agreed upon, focus more on the long-term goal of increasing wages for all in the future. Don't fool yourselves and expect the status quo in this economy - it ain't realistic...

 

[CitationLover]

Here we go again... Imagine if Atlas somehow merged with Alaska Airlines. Would the Alaska pilots automatically drop to the bottom of the combined list because their 737s are smaller than Atlas 747s? That is unrealistic thinking. That sounds like USAirways East thinking. Remember who is buying whom...

And the arbitrator awarded the Easties with the top 200 slots due to their larger equipment.

 

[rchcfi]

Here we go again... Imagine if Atlas somehow merged with Alaska Airlines. Would the Alaska pilots automatically drop to the bottom of the combined list because their 737s are smaller than Atlas 747s? That is unrealistic thinking. That sounds like USAirways East thinking. Remember who is buying whom...

I don't see your point here. If what you're trying to say, is that Alaska pilots were to be stapled, I would assume they still get longevity. Therefore other than bidding a lower number, they would be still making the same money. (except the most junior FOs) It all comes down to fair pay for equipment flown. And if that is the case, Alaska pilots get paid more with relationship to aircraft size.....So your argument is moot!

 

[82spukram]

Here we go again... Imagine if Atlas somehow merged with Alaska Airlines. Would the Alaska pilots automatically drop to the bottom of the combined list because their 737s are smaller than Atlas 747s? That is unrealistic thinking. That sounds like USAirways East thinking. Remember who is buying whom...

Instead, consider what might happen if RAH does not help Frontier through the Fall and Winter... Frontier might collapse and more pilots might lose their jobs permanently - it could happen. JetBlue might not be in a position to buy Frontier like some of their pilots want. Virgin America has no breathing room with so much debt - it would not be Frontier's white knight. Midwest pilots are in a similar situation - their jobs are disappearing by the day.

I don't work for RAH or CHQ. I don't want wages and conditions to continue their decline. Working in this industry blows from an economic perspective and it can't get much worse. I am suggesting that people need to be a little more realistic. Frontier and Midwest pilots deserve to maintain their current wages in this difficult economy but they shouldn't expect things to stay the same - that would be very unrealistic. The alternative is unemployment and very few job opportunities in a terrible job market. I agree that joining forces with your new brothers/sisters at RAH to create a better situation for all should be the long-term goal. Integration could be a bit messy, but once a framework is agreed upon, focus more on the long-term goal of increasing wages for all in the future. Don't fool yourselves and expect the status quo in this economy - it ain't realistic...

The difference is that Alaska and Atlas pay is about the same so relative seniority would work.

 

[johnsonrod]

This all means SQUAT if Frontier and Midwest pilots all lose their jobs due to liquidations - GET IT????????????? Frankly I am starting to hear many of the same USAirways East arguments before and after the America West merger. Guess what East dudes, you would have no jobs at present-day USAirways were it not for America West. Frontier and Midwest pilots most likely have two options: look for jobs outside the airline business as your jobs continue to evaporate or look to make the best of a difficult situation that does not have to end negatively.

Just saying you should look at the long-term perspective and collaboration instead of the typical over-emotional, non-cooperative dog fight. The alternative to merger/integration is unemployment in an economy that could get much worse before it gets better (some economists are predicting a worsening economy through 2011-12). Wake up and smell the coffee... By the way, how much bigger is an A318 than an E190?

 

[kwick]

Keep the operations separate.

They said they would keep the Frontier and Midwest brands.

Down the road, maybe a flow up to the Airbus for qualified RAH pilots.

Don't think anybody would sign off on a "windfall" for the RJ guys. Probably a one-for-one integration with the Lynx guys. That would be the most fair.

 

[CitationLover]

This all means SQUAT if Frontier and Midwest pilots all lose their jobs due to liquidations - GET IT????????????? Frankly I am starting to hear many of the same USAirways East arguments before and after the America West merger. Guess what East dudes, you would have no jobs at present-day USAirways were it not for America West. Frontier and Midwest pilots most likely have two options: look for jobs outside the airline business as your jobs continue to evaporate or look to make the best of a difficult situation that does not have to end negatively.

Just saying you should look at the long-term perspective and collaboration instead of the typical over-emotional, non-cooperative dog fight. The alternative to merger/integration is unemployment in an economy that could get much worse before it gets better (some economists are predicting a worsening economy through 2011-12). Wake up and smell the coffee... By the way, how much bigger is an A318 than an E190?

You cannot prove your assertion. Speaking in "what if's" is completely worthless because you have reality. Reality in this situation is MEH crews to be integrated and Frontier crews to be integrated (provided RAH is the winning bidder) barring any other information we do not know at this time.

I fully expect my MEC to lobby hard for our 400 pilots and vice versa wrt yours. Anything else from either would be looked upon rather wearily.

I would not be surprised that Bedford and Hoeksema cooked the privately held Midwest books to show the massive $450 million loss last year to be used to whipsaw Republic in their contract negotiations. He can now simply point out to you that our pay rates, work rules, etc. caused this loss to happen and he "needs" your rates, or a small increase, in order to maintain "cost effectiveness".