How lemons can be turned into lemonade...

Minimaniac

Benevolent Dictator
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I want to start by expressing my sympathies for the pilots of Midwest and Frontier airlines. The news over the past two days has certainly caused more anxiety and doubt over the immediate and distant future in regards to your aviation career. As a pilot of RAH, I know I have become an instant enemy. I did not chose this path, nor did I know the company I chose to work for 5 years ago would be in this position today. This was not my first 121 employer, nor even my second. I have seen the skids of this industry as well.

Here is what I think we all need to acknowledge. Any company acquired by RAH will have its pilots integrating into the master seniority list at RAH. This was the scope we fought dearly for in 2003. We are not of the same union as Midwest or Frontier, so there will be disagreements on how integration will be handled. Junior pilots here may cry "staple", but understand that they are worried about being furloughed when you guys and girls come onto our seniority list. Don't let a few calls for inequitable integration speak for the rest of us. The majority of us at RAH want to see some sort of fair meshing of our lists. No one wants to lose seniority, but we all recognize that we will have to in some way. Please just tolerate the few errant emotional outbursts you may hear.

Now, here is the reason why I posted this thread...

MIDWEST AND FRONTIER PILOTS:

(assuming the RAH/F9 bankruptcy plan is approved..)

Please understand that you are coming onto our property at a time that gives us all GREAT OPPORTUNITY! You will have the potential to shape and vote on the RAH CBA. If we can move through the integration process quickly, you can become voting members of our newly grown pilot group. You can put a stop to continued low wages. You can reject a TA that does not represent your value and experience.

RAH pilots want to advance our industry. Since the last contract, nearly 1800 new pilots have been hired at RAH. many of the junior pilots here have worked at other part 121 carriers. We are not just a bunch of wet ink flight instructors with big jet envy, despite what the actions of our management will have you think.

Our union local has seen major changes recently. The leadership that gave us at RAH the image of being toothless and spineless has been cut, and replaced by far more skilled trustees that want to redefine the power of the Teamsters. These new trustees want to hear your inputs for our new contract. You at Midwest and Frontier can actually have your voices heard at this union. The pilots want more, and you can help us achieve it!

We are not uneducated, on the whole. Through jets for jobs programs, we at RAH have had the opportunity to fly with mainline pilots and to learn how weak our contract is. We see what potential we have. With your help, we can all work towards a better future.

I know how bitter the integration process will be for all involved. We will all be told how unreasonable the other side is. But in the end, cooler heads will prevail. Midwest and Frontier pilots, you can get fences to protect your flying. You can get some sort of longevity recognition in regards to pay. You will not all end up on the street while RAH pilots take all of your jobs. Integration will not work that way. Any arbitrator will surely make sure the pain is felt equally. And we at RAH know that you will not agree to anything less than equal suffering.

So go ahead and be angry. Be spiteful. Those are obvious first and second reactions. I can wait for the dust to settle. I can look past your initial reactions and see how you feel as begin to look forward again. Let's try to end up fighting at each other's side for something that benefits all of us, instead of fighting each other. I know grudges will be harbored for entire careers, but lets keep those between us as men and women, and not let RAH management pit us against each other.

Step one: lets get onto one seniority list. Work with us, and we can be stronger before we finalize our new CBA.

Step two: Vote together for a truly respectable contract. Get the pay and work rules you have been accustomed to.

Step three: learn to live together, and learn from each other in the cockpit. We all bring a lot of different histories to the table. We can all become better pilots from this.

Many of us have called for consolidation. Well, here it is, though not the way we expected it. But, we will have one seniority list for FIVE operating certificates (six, if Lynx comes on with us, too). We can be a very powerful force! The reach of our union will be significant. While Teamsters is our current union, we at RAH are playing wait and see with the new trustees. If they fail us like the previous leaders did, then we are all ready for new representation. You could be ALPA again. Or we can form an in-house union. Either way, we can rock the boat together, or just drown fighting each other.

Please join us if business makes us co-workers. Let's fight together. Let's not go after one another, but rather go after the contract we deserve. Then, with better pay, we can work out our differences at the bar over a few tall brews.
 

Browntothebone

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I just can't see the NMB allowing the merging of lists of 2 majors with 1 regional. This would set a terrible president to allow regional pilots not having to be stapled to a mainline list.
 

kwick

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enough
I just can't see the NMB allowing the merging of lists of 2 majors with 1 regional. This would set a terrible president to allow regional pilots not having to be stapled to a mainline list.

The Frontier RJ pilots should be merged with the Republic RJ pilots.

There should be a provision for a flow up or flow down from the Frontier
A-320 operation.
 

landlover

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one list would be the best deal for everyone.
 

Browntothebone

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one list would be the best deal for everyone.

But it wouldn't be fair to the Frontier and Midwest pilots. Most of those guys/gals have already served there sentance at the regionals. Why shouldn't they go to the front of the new combined list?
 

landlover

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But it wouldn't be fair to the Frontier and Midwest pilots. Most of those guys/gals have already served there sentance at the regionals. Why shouldn't they go to the front of the new combined list?
i'll play devil's advocate here, and ask why should frontier and midwest get better treatment for simply working for a failed company?
 

Browntothebone

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I'm guessing an Alabama state school education.........

I'm assuming that you are trying to insult me. Hover the jokes on you. The spellchecker hasn't brought up anything misspelled in awhile for my post's. Besides, spelling or grammar doesn't mean squat when it comes to flying ability.
 

82spukram

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Better question what does fair and equable mean? Did a RAH pilot every really expect to get A320's or B717's on property? Can they honestly make an argument with 2 E190 coming on board justifies relative seniority for 1100 fellow pilots’ currently flying aircraft that as recently as May was not even on the horizon for RAH? Or is their argument the one that AWA and USAIR are currently caught up in. Who knows I definitely do not because I thought that in late July JetBlue was going to announce that we were going merge with F9 and that obviously did not happen. (And for those who are going to grade my post I am sure it is full of mistakes that the nuns use to beat me for when I was in grade school so enjoy)
 

Browntothebone

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Better question what does fair and equable mean? Did a RAH pilot every really expect to get A320's or B717's on property? Can they honestly make an argument with 2 E190 coming on board justifies relative seniority for 1100 fellow pilots’ currently flying aircraft that as recently as May was not even on the horizon for RAH? Or is their argument the one that AWA and USAIR are currently caught up in. Who knows I definitely do not because I thought that in late July JetBlue was going to announce that we were going merge with F9 and that obviously did not happen. (And for those who are going to grade my post I am sure it is full of mistakes that the nuns use to beat me for when I was in grade school so enjoy)

But one can make the argument that working for RAH, one does have the expectation of flying something bigger than an RJ.
 

fob727

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I just can't see the NMB allowing the merging of lists of 2 majors with 1 regional. This would set a terrible president to allow regional pilots not having to be stapled to a mainline list.
BTB, you're a troll. The only time you post is where you can star some sh*t.
 

OpenClimb

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Minimaniac--

I appreciate your attempt to acknowledge the concerns of the Frontier pilot group. But all the talk about working together as a united front is nothing more than a platitude. Good fealings and campfires don't mean much to my creditors.

So: Does a 5 year FO at Frontier belong ahead of or behind a E190 captain on the merged list?

Keep in mind that there are a bunch of 5 year FO's at Frontier who flew BE-1900's for Lakes or Mesa, then went to Mesaba/Air Wisconsin/Eagle for another 2-5 years and then finally got on with Frontier.

Personally, I'm an FO with 5 years' seniority at Frontier and another 5 years split between 2 of the above-referenced carriers. I could be in the top 10% of any of the above small-jet carriers by now if I had stayed. Instead, I moved up the career progression ladder and am now roughly in the top third of the FO list at Frontier.

Should I be pushed back to small-jet FO? Should I assume the position of small-jet captain? Or should the Frontier pilots be stapled to the bottom of a combined list due to low "career expectations" because Frontier is in bankruptcy?

These are the questions that give rise to hard fealings.
 

jravi8tor

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enough
It's not there fault that there company failed.

The word Citationlover was referring to as being misspelled is "there". You should have used THEIR instead of there. There refers to "look right over there".

Spelling might not help you fly an airplane, but it sure says alot about you as a person and your education and ability to put together a paragraph.


Furloughed MIDEX now RAH
 

lookin4better

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Minimaniac--

I appreciate your attempt to acknowledge the concerns of the Frontier pilot group. But all the talk about working together as a united front is nothing more than a platitude. Good fealings and campfires don't mean much to my creditors.

So: Does a 5 year FO at Frontier belong ahead of or behind a E190 captain on the merged list?

Keep in mind that there are a bunch of 5 year FO's at Frontier who flew BE-1900's for Lakes or Mesa, then went to Mesaba/Air Wisconsin/Eagle for another 2-5 years and then finally got on with Frontier.

Personally, I'm an FO with 5 years' seniority at Frontier and another 5 years split between 2 of the above-referenced carriers. I could be in the top 10% of any of the above small-jet carriers by now if I had stayed. Instead, I moved up the career progression ladder and am now roughly in the top third of the FO list at Frontier.

Should I be pushed back to small-jet FO? Should I assume the position of small-jet captain? Or should the Frontier pilots be stapled to the bottom of a combined list due to low "career expectations" because Frontier is in bankruptcy?

These are the questions that give rise to hard fealings.
Great point! Its about " career expectations " ..... its easily argued that pilots at RAH did not expect to fly bigger planes at that company.... You should not be below any current FO's at RAH....for the exact reasons you laid out above.
 

ultrarunner

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So, what are the career expectation of a MidEx pilot flying for an outfit with 9 airframes?

They have been assimilated!
 

CitationLover

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So, what are the career expectation of a MidEx pilot flying for an outfit with 9 airframes?

They have been assimilated!
Crappy going on crappier. But in terms of earning power a lot more than any Republic pilot. If I never upgraded at Midwest I'd have earned more than 95% of their pilots.
 

OpenClimb

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Great point! Its about " career expectations " ..... its easily argued that pilots at RAH did not expect to fly bigger planes at that company.... You should not be below any current FO's at RAH....for the exact reasons you laid out above.
Thank you for trying to agree with me, but I'll play devil's advocate--against my own interests.

Seniority relative to RAH FO's: OK. I accept your assertion. I shouldn't be below any FO's at RAH. I'm not sure the RAH FO's would agree with this, but I'll accept it for sake of continued discussion. The next question: Should I be below any RAH Captains? Does the answer change if we say that all Frontier FO's will have an opportunity to be Airbus Captains before any current RAH captains are allowed to be Airbus captains? And, further, we say that no Frontier pilot may be an RAH captain?

Personally, I'd be thrilled to stay an Airbus FO at our pre-concession payrates and terms until my seniority among Frontier pilots allowed me an opportunity to upgrade on an Airbus. This would mean that no RAH pilot would be able to upgrade on the Airbus before me. Seems logical enough to me, but I can also see where RAH pilots might take exception with this plan. After all, it's _their_ company that survived and thrived such that their company bailed my employer out of bankruptcy.

"Career Expectations?" Based on my expectations at what point? When I was first hired at a Part 121 carrier 10 years ago? When I left a pretty decent small-jet carrier and went to Frontier a little over 5 years ago? Or now? When my Company has been operating under bankruptcy protection for the past 14 months?

Right now, I'd have to admit that my expectations with regard to my airline career are at an all-time low!
 

Avi8tor2000

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Minimaniac--

I appreciate your attempt to acknowledge the concerns of the Frontier pilot group. But all the talk about working together as a united front is nothing more than a platitude. Good fealings and campfires don't mean much to my creditors.

So: Does a 5 year FO at Frontier belong ahead of or behind a E190 captain on the merged list?

Keep in mind that there are a bunch of 5 year FO's at Frontier who flew BE-1900's for Lakes or Mesa, then went to Mesaba/Air Wisconsin/Eagle for another 2-5 years and then finally got on with Frontier.

Personally, I'm an FO with 5 years' seniority at Frontier and another 5 years split between 2 of the above-referenced carriers. I could be in the top 10% of any of the above small-jet carriers by now if I had stayed. Instead, I moved up the career progression ladder and am now roughly in the top third of the FO list at Frontier.

Should I be pushed back to small-jet FO? Should I assume the position of small-jet captain? Or should the Frontier pilots be stapled to the bottom of a combined list due to low "career expectations" because Frontier is in bankruptcy?

These are the questions that give rise to hard fealings.
But this is America, and while we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness there is no guarantee of it. If you work for a company that goes out of business or bankrupt, how does that give you a right to a higher position than others at a different company, regardless of what company that is? When Bear Sterns collapsed, did their workers get merged into JP Morgan when they claimed their assets? I guarantee most of their employees paid their dues as well. I too put in my time at Lakes and I too was hired by Frontier. Instead of taking it when their future was uncertain, I decided job security was more important to me than flying bigger airplanes. Should I be pushed down the list by ultimately making the right decision?

Obviously there are many different scenarios for many different pilots. Personally I would like to see a fence around the entire F9 mainline operation for quite some time. This would preserve your seniority regardless of where any intergration placed you on a joined list. THERE WILL BE NO STAPLE. There are a lot of people using that word around here which is disgusting to see.
 
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