How lemons can be turned into lemonade...

[lookin4better]

Minimaniac--

I appreciate your attempt to acknowledge the concerns of the Frontier pilot group. But all the talk about working together as a united front is nothing more than a platitude. Good fealings and campfires don't mean much to my creditors.

So: Does a 5 year FO at Frontier belong ahead of or behind a E190 captain on the merged list?

Keep in mind that there are a bunch of 5 year FO's at Frontier who flew BE-1900's for Lakes or Mesa, then went to Mesaba/Air Wisconsin/Eagle for another 2-5 years and then finally got on with Frontier.

Personally, I'm an FO with 5 years' seniority at Frontier and another 5 years split between 2 of the above-referenced carriers. I could be in the top 10% of any of the above small-jet carriers by now if I had stayed. Instead, I moved up the career progression ladder and am now roughly in the top third of the FO list at Frontier.

Should I be pushed back to small-jet FO? Should I assume the position of small-jet captain? Or should the Frontier pilots be stapled to the bottom of a combined list due to low "career expectations" because Frontier is in bankruptcy?

These are the questions that give rise to hard fealings.

Great point! Its about " career expectations " ..... its easily argued that pilots at RAH did not expect to fly bigger planes at that company.... You should not be below any current FO's at RAH....for the exact reasons you laid out above.

 

[ultrarunner]

So, what are the career expectation of a MidEx pilot flying for an outfit with 9 airframes?

They have been assimilated!

 

[CitationLover]

So, what are the career expectation of a MidEx pilot flying for an outfit with 9 airframes?

They have been assimilated!

Crappy going on crappier. But in terms of earning power a lot more than any Republic pilot. If I never upgraded at Midwest I'd have earned more than 95% of their pilots.

 

[OpenClimb]

Great point! Its about " career expectations " ..... its easily argued that pilots at RAH did not expect to fly bigger planes at that company.... You should not be below any current FO's at RAH....for the exact reasons you laid out above.

Thank you for trying to agree with me, but I'll play devil's advocate--against my own interests.

Seniority relative to RAH FO's: OK. I accept your assertion. I shouldn't be below any FO's at RAH. I'm not sure the RAH FO's would agree with this, but I'll accept it for sake of continued discussion. The next question: Should I be below any RAH Captains? Does the answer change if we say that all Frontier FO's will have an opportunity to be Airbus Captains before any current RAH captains are allowed to be Airbus captains? And, further, we say that no Frontier pilot may be an RAH captain?

Personally, I'd be thrilled to stay an Airbus FO at our pre-concession payrates and terms until my seniority among Frontier pilots allowed me an opportunity to upgrade on an Airbus. This would mean that no RAH pilot would be able to upgrade on the Airbus before me. Seems logical enough to me, but I can also see where RAH pilots might take exception with this plan. After all, it's _their_ company that survived and thrived such that their company bailed my employer out of bankruptcy.

"Career Expectations?" Based on my expectations at what point? When I was first hired at a Part 121 carrier 10 years ago? When I left a pretty decent small-jet carrier and went to Frontier a little over 5 years ago? Or now? When my Company has been operating under bankruptcy protection for the past 14 months?

Right now, I'd have to admit that my expectations with regard to my airline career are at an all-time low!

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Minimaniac--

I appreciate your attempt to acknowledge the concerns of the Frontier pilot group. But all the talk about working together as a united front is nothing more than a platitude. Good fealings and campfires don't mean much to my creditors.

So: Does a 5 year FO at Frontier belong ahead of or behind a E190 captain on the merged list?

Keep in mind that there are a bunch of 5 year FO's at Frontier who flew BE-1900's for Lakes or Mesa, then went to Mesaba/Air Wisconsin/Eagle for another 2-5 years and then finally got on with Frontier.

Personally, I'm an FO with 5 years' seniority at Frontier and another 5 years split between 2 of the above-referenced carriers. I could be in the top 10% of any of the above small-jet carriers by now if I had stayed. Instead, I moved up the career progression ladder and am now roughly in the top third of the FO list at Frontier.

Should I be pushed back to small-jet FO? Should I assume the position of small-jet captain? Or should the Frontier pilots be stapled to the bottom of a combined list due to low "career expectations" because Frontier is in bankruptcy?

These are the questions that give rise to hard fealings.

But this is America, and while we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness there is no guarantee of it. If you work for a company that goes out of business or bankrupt, how does that give you a right to a higher position than others at a different company, regardless of what company that is? When Bear Sterns collapsed, did their workers get merged into JP Morgan when they claimed their assets? I guarantee most of their employees paid their dues as well. I too put in my time at Lakes and I too was hired by Frontier. Instead of taking it when their future was uncertain, I decided job security was more important to me than flying bigger airplanes. Should I be pushed down the list by ultimately making the right decision?

Obviously there are many different scenarios for many different pilots. Personally I would like to see a fence around the entire F9 mainline operation for quite some time. This would preserve your seniority regardless of where any intergration placed you on a joined list. THERE WILL BE NO STAPLE. There are a lot of people using that word around here which is disgusting to see.

 

[Andy Neill]

This would set a terrible president

I'll not have you talking about the commander in chief that way.

 

[Andy Neill]

Deleted

 

[Andy Neill]

As a disinterested third party let me toss out a plan for discussion. In forming this, I used the following considerations:
---Frontier/Midwest pilots are entitled to some consideration because they probably have already gained considerable experience at the regional level or had sufficient experience to bypass the regionals when they arrived at Frontier/Midwest.
---RAH pilots deserve more consideration because they had a relatively more secure position at Republic before the acquisitions than did the acquired pilots.
*********
With those set as the basis, here is my plan:

Integrate using relative seniority with the following exception
No Frontier/Midwest pilot captain will be placed lower than the most junior RAH captain. [Note that this is different in effect than saying no lower than the most senior RAH FO who may be senior enough to be a Captain at Republic.] Fence off domiciles and aircraft transistions for a period equal to the time the most junior Frontier/Midwest captain had at upgrade. Furloughs (if any) will take place within each of the three pilot groups until the end of the fence period.

 

[landlover]

---Frontier FOs are entitled to some consideration considering the time many of them have paid in regional jobs or that they had sufficient qualifications ot bypass the regionals.

I'm no judge and have no dog in this fight. But i really can't see how this would have any bearing. if that holds true, why not give guys with college degrees a high seniority number? Or who ever has the most hours or most type ratings gets to be number 1.

 

[Andy Neill]

That's why I put it oput there...for comment. So if you throw that out, you would advocate straight relative seniority?

 

[OpenClimb]

How 'bout seniority based on hire date at your first Part 121 carrier? Sort of a national seniority list concept applied retroactively.

I'm obviously biased, but straight relative seniority would cost me 8 years of upward mobility and would, conversely, be a big bonus to an RAH FO who's 35% from the top of the RAH FO list.

I had a little over 4000 hours and a type rating when I was hired at Frontier and have just shy of 9000 hours now. How does this compare to a 35% (from the top) FO at RAH?

Again, from my biased perspective, I'd like to see a fence to protect those currently on the property or furloughed. I can't bump EMB guys and EMB guys can't bump me. Any new hires from integration date forward go on the bottom of the master list and work their way up through the ranks.

'Course I'm well aware that the folks making these decisions have ignored my suggestions in the past and haven't asked my opinion in the current instance. In the end, we'll all take what is shoved down our throats and our only recourse will be a change of career.

I realize it's FI tradition to be argumentative and inflamatory, but please take my posts in the spirit intended. I don't claim to have the answers. I'm just hoping an exchange of perspectives will help us all cope with the screwing we're about to receive! [Now who's being polyanic?]

 

[Andy Neill]

I'd like to see a fence to protect those currently on the property or furloughed. I can't bump EMB guys and EMB guys can't bump me. Any new hires from integration date forward go on the bottom of the master list and work their way up through the ranks.

Are you suggesting the fence be in place permanently?

 

[OpenClimb]

Are you suggesting the fence be in place permanently?

Hmm. I see your point. A permanent fence would be tantamount to "stapling" the RAH list to the Frontier list. Not cool.

So, in a twisted way, a fence is just putting off the inevitable hard feelings of a true integration.

Even acknowledging your point, I have to be honest and say that I don't think it's right that an RAH FO with 18-36 months in the business should attain my relative seniority as a result of integrating the seniority lists.

I realize this is a crappy thing to say, but dang. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since I was 35% from the top of the FO list at my first Part 121 job. I'd hate to think that all that 'paying of dues' was wasted.

Can someone from RAH share with us the approximate hire date of an RAH FO who's attained the level of 35% from the top of the FO list? Has s/he been there 18 months? 36 months? Even in the larger, more stable of the 2 small-jet operators I worked for I was at this level in less than 2 years.

I'm open to suggestions and to having my mind changed on the subject. Andy, do you have any suggestions or are you just playing Socrates in this debate?

 

[Flying the Line]

Fence up until the most junior (on furlough) F9 guy upgrades to Airbus Captain, then a free for all.

 

[landlover]

i could see it going to ratio's, with a 1 year seat lock when the list gets combined. for example if you are 35% from the top at rah or midwest you are now 35% from the top at the new mega-regi-ational airline, but hold you seat for a year. after the year is up, start bidding with the masses.