How lemons can be turned into lemonade...

[Andy Neill]

This would set a terrible president

I'll not have you talking about the commander in chief that way.

 

[Andy Neill]

Deleted

 

[Andy Neill]

As a disinterested third party let me toss out a plan for discussion. In forming this, I used the following considerations:
---Frontier/Midwest pilots are entitled to some consideration because they probably have already gained considerable experience at the regional level or had sufficient experience to bypass the regionals when they arrived at Frontier/Midwest.
---RAH pilots deserve more consideration because they had a relatively more secure position at Republic before the acquisitions than did the acquired pilots.
*********
With those set as the basis, here is my plan:

Integrate using relative seniority with the following exception
No Frontier/Midwest pilot captain will be placed lower than the most junior RAH captain. [Note that this is different in effect than saying no lower than the most senior RAH FO who may be senior enough to be a Captain at Republic.] Fence off domiciles and aircraft transistions for a period equal to the time the most junior Frontier/Midwest captain had at upgrade. Furloughs (if any) will take place within each of the three pilot groups until the end of the fence period.

 

[landlover]

---Frontier FOs are entitled to some consideration considering the time many of them have paid in regional jobs or that they had sufficient qualifications ot bypass the regionals.

I'm no judge and have no dog in this fight. But i really can't see how this would have any bearing. if that holds true, why not give guys with college degrees a high seniority number? Or who ever has the most hours or most type ratings gets to be number 1.

 

[Andy Neill]

That's why I put it oput there...for comment. So if you throw that out, you would advocate straight relative seniority?

 

[OpenClimb]

How 'bout seniority based on hire date at your first Part 121 carrier? Sort of a national seniority list concept applied retroactively.

I'm obviously biased, but straight relative seniority would cost me 8 years of upward mobility and would, conversely, be a big bonus to an RAH FO who's 35% from the top of the RAH FO list.

I had a little over 4000 hours and a type rating when I was hired at Frontier and have just shy of 9000 hours now. How does this compare to a 35% (from the top) FO at RAH?

Again, from my biased perspective, I'd like to see a fence to protect those currently on the property or furloughed. I can't bump EMB guys and EMB guys can't bump me. Any new hires from integration date forward go on the bottom of the master list and work their way up through the ranks.

'Course I'm well aware that the folks making these decisions have ignored my suggestions in the past and haven't asked my opinion in the current instance. In the end, we'll all take what is shoved down our throats and our only recourse will be a change of career.

I realize it's FI tradition to be argumentative and inflamatory, but please take my posts in the spirit intended. I don't claim to have the answers. I'm just hoping an exchange of perspectives will help us all cope with the screwing we're about to receive! [Now who's being polyanic?]

 

[Andy Neill]

I'd like to see a fence to protect those currently on the property or furloughed. I can't bump EMB guys and EMB guys can't bump me. Any new hires from integration date forward go on the bottom of the master list and work their way up through the ranks.

Are you suggesting the fence be in place permanently?

 

[OpenClimb]

Are you suggesting the fence be in place permanently?

Hmm. I see your point. A permanent fence would be tantamount to "stapling" the RAH list to the Frontier list. Not cool.

So, in a twisted way, a fence is just putting off the inevitable hard feelings of a true integration.

Even acknowledging your point, I have to be honest and say that I don't think it's right that an RAH FO with 18-36 months in the business should attain my relative seniority as a result of integrating the seniority lists.

I realize this is a crappy thing to say, but dang. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since I was 35% from the top of the FO list at my first Part 121 job. I'd hate to think that all that 'paying of dues' was wasted.

Can someone from RAH share with us the approximate hire date of an RAH FO who's attained the level of 35% from the top of the FO list? Has s/he been there 18 months? 36 months? Even in the larger, more stable of the 2 small-jet operators I worked for I was at this level in less than 2 years.

I'm open to suggestions and to having my mind changed on the subject. Andy, do you have any suggestions or are you just playing Socrates in this debate?

 

[Flying the Line]

Fence up until the most junior (on furlough) F9 guy upgrades to Airbus Captain, then a free for all.

 

[landlover]

i could see it going to ratio's, with a 1 year seat lock when the list gets combined. for example if you are 35% from the top at rah or midwest you are now 35% from the top at the new mega-regi-ational airline, but hold you seat for a year. after the year is up, start bidding with the masses.

 

[Minimaniac]

Obviously, every party in the upcoming integration can justify why they should have an advantage in developing the final seniority list. Here are the factors to consider:

1. RAH is going to own both Midwest and Frontier. An arbitrator will always give credit to the pilot group of the purchasing airline, as it indicates financial strength.

2. Frontier is in bankruptcy. An arbitrator will acknowledge that actual and current bankruptcy means "career expectations" may not really exist any longer.

3. Frontier has been doing well in bankruptcy, with 6 quarters of profit. This will show an arbitrator that Frontier may actually be more viable than the bankruptcy tag suggests, and that the majority of those pilots do have renewed "career expectations".

3. Frontier cannot exit bankruptcy without republic (at least in this scenario, otherwise we wouldn't be talking integration!). This gives RAH pilots another advantage.

4. Frontier pilots have seniority going back to 1994, I believe. Previous airline time is unfortunately irrelevant. Many RAH pilots have previous 121 time, as well. And I don't mean just a year or two at another regional. RAH pilots have seniority going back to the 70's.

5. Midwest is a declining airline. With all of the aircraft being slated for removal, Midwest pilots do not have "career expectations" anymore in the eyes of an arbitrator.

6. Midwest has already been dependent upon cash from RAH for some time, suggesting to an arbitrator that Midwest pilot absolutely would not be employed if it weren't for Republic.

7. Midwest pilots have some of the most established seniority of the three (or four, with Lynx) company lists. That will be a plus for Midwest pilots.

8. There is no stapling. No one group will receive that kind of windfall.


As background, the last seniority list integration we had at RAH went as follows. RAH bought the Shuttle America company, which at the time only flew SAAB 340's. RAH did not plan to keep that aircraft type. AT the time, it was suggested that United Airlines was not going to renew its contract with Shuttle America. United was Shuttle America's only source of revenue. The end result of arbitration was that Shuttle America SAAB captains were lumped into one group, and placed at about halfway in the RAH seniority list. These pilots essentially went to the FO seat, kept their SAAB captain pay to some degree (they can tell you better), and they had the first opportunity to upgrade. The Shuttle America SAAB FO's were then slotted on a 1:7 basis throughout the remainder of the RAH list, giving them about a 100 pilot buffer from the bottom of the RAH list (furlough protection, in essence). Of course, everyone had some negative opinion about this. But, "old" Shuttle pilots got to keep longevity for pay purposes, were able to upgrade onto the aircraft of their choosing, and kept the pay they brought over. Not bad for a group of 85 pilots being merger into a 1300 pilot company. Since the SAABs were not kept, there was no potential for fences.

Here is how I see the upcoming mergers playing out:

1. Frontier- I assume the Frontier brand will remain intact, with all of the Airbus equipment being kept. In that case, I forsee a ratio integration that would preserve relative seniority, and fences that would keep Frontier pilots on their Airbus equipment for at least three years, if not more. No F9 pilot would find themselves furloughed if they are currently active on their own seniority list. Frontier FO's would be allowed to upgrade to a RAH airframe, but an RAH pilot would be allowed to bid for that vacant F9 seat, despite the fence. Once the fence expires, there will be no bump and flush, but rather RAH pilots can bid for any F9 vacany as it comes open. No F9 pilot will be displaced out of DEN and the Airbus, unless the aircraft are sold for some reason.

2. Lynx- Lynx is a young company, and has a good chance of being granted direct DOH. I don't see how Lynx pilots could ask for more than that, and since the majority of RAH pilots would be senior to the Lynx pilots, I think RAH pilots would vote in DOH without having to go to arbitration. Perhaps a fence could be negotiated, but I honestly see some RAH furloughees who are senior to the Lynx pilots being recalled into a Lynx seat and a junior Lynx FO having to go on furlough. That would be the drawback of DOH.

3. Midwest- Much like the Shuttle America example I gave above... Midwest aircraft are all going away, and there will be no 717's at RAH. That will mean no realistic hope for a fence. I feel that the Midwest pilots will end up losing the most in the integration because of the health of their company today. OF course no one is getting stapled. But, I do see a situation arising like Shuttle America, where the vast majority of Midwest pilots end up scattered through the bottom half of the new seniority list. I think Midwest captains will find themselves in position to take the first available upgrades, but in the right seat initially. Something will be done in terms of pay to recognize your longevity, but since your aircraft will be gone, and only aircraft less tha 99 seats will be available to you immediately (since F9 will be fenced off), Midwest pilots will be taking a nasty pay cut. For what it is worth, RAH will likely be getting more 190's to replace the 717's, and those new 190's will likely have more than 94 seats. If Midwest pilots can get a high enough spot on the RAH list, you will be well positioned to get onto the 190 with some higher pay than currently exists at RAH.


I am offering these ideas not as inflammatory comments, but as an somewhat educated insight into how things may go considering all integrations past that have relevance. I hope the process is quick so that the new additions to RAH can help us negotiate our new CBA and vote for their interests. Time will tell.

 

[Andy Neill]

Andy, do you have any suggestions or are you just playing Socrates in this debate?

My suggestion was the plan I originally posted. Reltive seniority except no Frontier/Midwest captain is junior to the junior captain at RAH with a fence up equal to the duration of the junior Frontier/Midwest captain time to upgrade. In other words, if the junior captain at Frontier made the upgrade in six years at Frontier, the fence would be up for six years.

I would be willing to shorten that to six years from when the upgrade happened instead of six years from integration. For example, if that upgrade was 2 years ago, then the fence would be up for an additional four years instead of six years.

The effect of both of those variants is that there will be junior FO's that will not upgrade before the fence goes down. Once the fence does go down, they will likely find themselves far down the list to upgrade.

 

[Andy Neill]

I am offering these ideas not as inflammatory comments, but as an somewhat educated insight into how things may go considering all integrations past that have relevance. I hope the process is quick so that the new additions to RAH can help us negotiate our new CBA and vote for their interests. Time will tell.

Very well thought out plan and much better informed than mine.

 

[Browntothebone]

Crappy going on crappier. But in terms of earning power a lot more than any Republic pilot. If I never upgraded at Midwest I'd have earned more than 95% of their pilots.

What those RAH pilots don't seem to understand is that they think making close to $100K a year is BIG bucks, and they can ONLY get close to that if they are VERY senior and whore themselves out on open time and check airman pay and include there perdiem, they MIGHT get close to $100K a year after 15 or 20 years at the company.

At my company a SECOND year F/O just flying guarantee makes much more than the most whored out senior RAH captain can EVER make!

 

[Smash312]

I'm assuming that you are trying to insult me. Hover the jokes on you. The spellchecker hasn't brought up anything misspelled in awhile for my post's. Besides, spelling or grammar doesn't mean squat when it comes to flying ability.

I don't think it's the spelling, I think it's the grammar.

 

[rchcfi]

Here is how I see the future.......Less than 1% of YX pilots will actually end up flying for RAH. They have been beaten down so bad over the past few years, none of them will fly for those rates and just retire with the 717s. I'm sure you will see some of the senior Frontier guys/gals doing the same thing. Therefore RAH will need to hire off the street and starry eyed young kids will be lining up for the job.......Thus the cycle repeats and our wages will continue to fall.

Thank goodness I'm getting out!

I can't wait until the day when the "senior" RAH pilots flying as Captain for $88/hr get undercut by a new breed who will do it for $45/hr...Mark my words, that day will come!

 

[Minimaniac]

I'm sorry to insult, but your ignorance is astounding. Frontier pilots will continue to operate the Frontier Airbus aircraft at current Frontier pay until:

1. Their seniority list is integrated into the RAH seniority list

AND EITHER:

2a. Frontier pilots bid over to other RAH equipment

2b. A new CBA is ratified by the new RAH pilot group that by default will replace the current Frontier contract. This new contract will include rates for the Airbus equipment. Since neither RAH or Frontier is losing money, there is no reason for the new Airbus rates to be less than current Airbus rates. Why would any of us vote for concessions given the current circumstances?

2c. A LOA is signed by RAH pilots that creates a new pay scale for the Airbus type until a new CBA is agreed upon. See above why RAH pilots have zero incentive to agree to an Airbus pay rate that is less than the current rate.

The Airbus is coming, pending court approval. We don't have any pressure to work for less to land this flying. It is already coming. How you make it as a pilot without any capacity for reason is beyond me.

As for Midwest pilots, very few will leave until they at least see where on the combined seniority list they will fall. Also, with the need for large aircraft pay thanks to Frontier coming aboard, Midwest pilots still have the chance to maintain or reattain pay similar to that of the 717. Unless industry wide hiring resumes, I think it would be foolish for any YX pilot to leave until they see how things pan out.

 

[Grey Ghost]

If you work for a company that goes out of business or bankrupt, how does that give you a right to a higher position than others at a different company, regardless of what company that is? .

Just ask the guys at USAIRWAYS?:uzi:

 

[CitationLover]

I wonder if the arbitrator will still see Midwest as a "code-share" with Republic. Can an airline code-share with itself? haha, stranger things have happened.

This deal only solidifies cheaper labor flying the Midwest routes. The reason so many Midwest pilots are on the street is due to this pure and simple. I fully expect a staple of 300 Midwest pilots just like Larocco decided. One can only hope a fence is erected protecting the relative seniority in base for Republic (all their domiciles), Midwest (MKE), and Frontier (DEN).

 

[rchcfi]

I'm sorry to insult, but your ignorance is astounding. Frontier pilots will continue to operate the Frontier Airbus aircraft at current Frontier pay until:

1. Their seniority list is integrated into the RAH seniority list
At which point some F9 FOs and junior Captains will not want to take a step back.

AND EITHER:

2a. Frontier pilots bid over to other RAH equipment
See above....

2b. A new CBA is ratified by the new RAH pilot group that by default will replace the current Frontier contract. This new contract will include rates for the Airbus equipment. Since neither RAH or Frontier is losing money, there is no reason for the new Airbus rates to be less than current Airbus rates. Why would any of us vote for concessions given the current circumstances? Because RAH will dangle a few carrots in front of the RP FOs (4 years seniority or less) who are the majority at your airline. "Yep, if you accept these new rates, we'll put you in the Airbus class as soon as it's ratified. We really need your help in this economy!" Of course I know it's not going to be that cut and dry, but you can bet your bottom dollar BB will do anything within his legal means to keep costs low.

2c. A LOA is signed by RAH pilots that creates a new pay scale for the Airbus type until a new CBA is agreed upon. See above why RAH pilots have zero incentive to agree to an Airbus pay rate that is less than the current rate.
Why would you need a new pay scale if you think the one currently on property is fair and just? I know as RAH you need to get the Airbus rates on your contract, but why not just accept the current ones. Also, see above why the new pay scale will be lower. Please don't resort to your personal attacks trying to respond to this one. You could have just said, "we need to bargain for F9's rates, not new ones".

The Airbus is coming, pending court approval. We don't have any pressure to work for less to land this flying. It is already coming. How you make it as a pilot without any capacity for reason is beyond me.
Ah yes, here it is! I was waiting to get attacked by a RAH guy. I knew it wouldn't be long. Having dealt with your pilot group over the years, I didn't expect anything less. Have fun flying an E jet for the rest of your life....Oh wait, I almost forgot....Have flying your Airbus for substandard wages...Cut this out and print it....YOUR AIRBUS RATES WILL BE BARGAINED AT A LOWER RATE...GUARANTEED!

As for Midwest pilots, very few will leave until they at least see where on the combined seniority list they will fall. Also, with the need for large aircraft pay thanks to Frontier coming aboard, Midwest pilots still have the chance to maintain or reattain pay similar to that of the 717. Unless industry wide hiring resumes, I think it would be foolish for any YX pilot to leave until they see how things pan out.
You really are smoking the good stuff huh? You are right, very few will leave until the 717s are gone. They are going to milk their well deserved pay rates as long as they can. If you don't have a combined seniority list out by then, they won't have a chance to look to see where they fall because they will not be around. I know this because I've talked to quite a few YX pilots and they are not working for the airline that killed their career. And how do you define similiar? Do you think a grape is similiar in size to a watermelon? Based on your logic, a 15 year YX Captain making $158/hr is not going to mind making a SIMILIAR $108/hr flying the E190. And don't even get me started on the fact that both Frontier and Midwest 1st year FO pay is equal to or higher than your topped out FO pay on similiar equipment. See, that is how you're supposed to use the word "similiar". The E190 will seat 94 while the 717 seats 99.

All of this just gets old. You guys just keep going on justifying yourselves. Not many people are really listening!