How lemons can be turned into lemonade...

[rchcfi]

Here we go again... Imagine if Atlas somehow merged with Alaska Airlines. Would the Alaska pilots automatically drop to the bottom of the combined list because their 737s are smaller than Atlas 747s? That is unrealistic thinking. That sounds like USAirways East thinking. Remember who is buying whom...

I don't see your point here. If what you're trying to say, is that Alaska pilots were to be stapled, I would assume they still get longevity. Therefore other than bidding a lower number, they would be still making the same money. (except the most junior FOs) It all comes down to fair pay for equipment flown. And if that is the case, Alaska pilots get paid more with relationship to aircraft size.....So your argument is moot!

 

[82spukram]

Here we go again... Imagine if Atlas somehow merged with Alaska Airlines. Would the Alaska pilots automatically drop to the bottom of the combined list because their 737s are smaller than Atlas 747s? That is unrealistic thinking. That sounds like USAirways East thinking. Remember who is buying whom...

Instead, consider what might happen if RAH does not help Frontier through the Fall and Winter... Frontier might collapse and more pilots might lose their jobs permanently - it could happen. JetBlue might not be in a position to buy Frontier like some of their pilots want. Virgin America has no breathing room with so much debt - it would not be Frontier's white knight. Midwest pilots are in a similar situation - their jobs are disappearing by the day.

I don't work for RAH or CHQ. I don't want wages and conditions to continue their decline. Working in this industry blows from an economic perspective and it can't get much worse. I am suggesting that people need to be a little more realistic. Frontier and Midwest pilots deserve to maintain their current wages in this difficult economy but they shouldn't expect things to stay the same - that would be very unrealistic. The alternative is unemployment and very few job opportunities in a terrible job market. I agree that joining forces with your new brothers/sisters at RAH to create a better situation for all should be the long-term goal. Integration could be a bit messy, but once a framework is agreed upon, focus more on the long-term goal of increasing wages for all in the future. Don't fool yourselves and expect the status quo in this economy - it ain't realistic...

The difference is that Alaska and Atlas pay is about the same so relative seniority would work.

 

[johnsonrod]

This all means SQUAT if Frontier and Midwest pilots all lose their jobs due to liquidations - GET IT????????????? Frankly I am starting to hear many of the same USAirways East arguments before and after the America West merger. Guess what East dudes, you would have no jobs at present-day USAirways were it not for America West. Frontier and Midwest pilots most likely have two options: look for jobs outside the airline business as your jobs continue to evaporate or look to make the best of a difficult situation that does not have to end negatively.

Just saying you should look at the long-term perspective and collaboration instead of the typical over-emotional, non-cooperative dog fight. The alternative to merger/integration is unemployment in an economy that could get much worse before it gets better (some economists are predicting a worsening economy through 2011-12). Wake up and smell the coffee... By the way, how much bigger is an A318 than an E190?

 

[kwick]

Keep the operations separate.

They said they would keep the Frontier and Midwest brands.

Down the road, maybe a flow up to the Airbus for qualified RAH pilots.

Don't think anybody would sign off on a "windfall" for the RJ guys. Probably a one-for-one integration with the Lynx guys. That would be the most fair.

 

[CitationLover]

This all means SQUAT if Frontier and Midwest pilots all lose their jobs due to liquidations - GET IT????????????? Frankly I am starting to hear many of the same USAirways East arguments before and after the America West merger. Guess what East dudes, you would have no jobs at present-day USAirways were it not for America West. Frontier and Midwest pilots most likely have two options: look for jobs outside the airline business as your jobs continue to evaporate or look to make the best of a difficult situation that does not have to end negatively.

Just saying you should look at the long-term perspective and collaboration instead of the typical over-emotional, non-cooperative dog fight. The alternative to merger/integration is unemployment in an economy that could get much worse before it gets better (some economists are predicting a worsening economy through 2011-12). Wake up and smell the coffee... By the way, how much bigger is an A318 than an E190?

You cannot prove your assertion. Speaking in "what if's" is completely worthless because you have reality. Reality in this situation is MEH crews to be integrated and Frontier crews to be integrated (provided RAH is the winning bidder) barring any other information we do not know at this time.

I fully expect my MEC to lobby hard for our 400 pilots and vice versa wrt yours. Anything else from either would be looked upon rather wearily.

I would not be surprised that Bedford and Hoeksema cooked the privately held Midwest books to show the massive $450 million loss last year to be used to whipsaw Republic in their contract negotiations. He can now simply point out to you that our pay rates, work rules, etc. caused this loss to happen and he "needs" your rates, or a small increase, in order to maintain "cost effectiveness".

 

[starchkr]

I just want to know when i can use the phrase "Republic, Frontier colors" just like NWA has to do...I almost used it today on pushback from DEN but decided it may still be too early.

 

[dougdrvr]

I would not be surprised that Bedford and Hoeksema cooked the privately held Midwest books to show the massive $450 million loss last year to be used to whipsaw Republic in their contract negotiations. He can now simply point out to you that our pay rates, work rules, etc. caused this loss to happen and he "needs" your rates, or a small increase, in order to maintain "cost effectiveness".

It was actually $477 million, wasn't it? Which illustrates the point that if the Midex pilots had workrd the ENTIRE year for FREE the loss would have been $450 million.

If we are actually going to work together, I suggest that the Midex negotiating team be utilized for pay and work rules and the RAH team handle scope.

 

[CitationLover]

It was actually $477 million, wasn't it?

Yes it was.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/45879832.html

 

[General Lee]

How 'bout seniority based on hire date at your first Part 121 carrier? Sort of a national seniority list concept applied retroactively.

I'm obviously biased, but straight relative seniority would cost me 8 years of upward mobility and would, conversely, be a big bonus to an RAH FO who's 35% from the top of the RAH FO list.

I had a little over 4000 hours and a type rating when I was hired at Frontier and have just shy of 9000 hours now. How does this compare to a 35% (from the top) FO at RAH?

Again, from my biased perspective, I'd like to see a fence to protect those currently on the property or furloughed. I can't bump EMB guys and EMB guys can't bump me. Any new hires from integration date forward go on the bottom of the master list and work their way up through the ranks.

'Course I'm well aware that the folks making these decisions have ignored my suggestions in the past and haven't asked my opinion in the current instance. In the end, we'll all take what is shoved down our throats and our only recourse will be a change of career.

I realize it's FI tradition to be argumentative and inflamatory, but please take my posts in the spirit intended. I don't claim to have the answers. I'm just hoping an exchange of perspectives will help us all cope with the screwing we're about to receive! [Now who's being polyanic?]

If you merge into one carrier, then it will probably be relative seniority, but with exceptions for aircraft type. Nicelau gave the top 500 USAir East pilots the top spots because they flew INTL widebodies and America West didn't have any. Since Frontier and Midwest have larger planes NOW (larger than the E190s coming), then they would probably be placed at the top (using Nicelau's theory), and then the rest merged in below. We had the same deal here at Delta, except we both had large INTL widebodies. (we just had more of them at Delta-South). Good luck and get some fun arbitration while you are at it, and don't cry like babies if you don't like what you get like the Easties at USAir. Also, get a new contract (a joint contract) BEFORE you do arbitration, which is another thing USAir forgot to do.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Browntothebone]

If you merge into one carrier, then it will probably be relative seniority, but with exceptions for aircraft type. Nicelau gave the top 500 USAir East pilots the top spots because they flew INTL widebodies and America West didn't have any. Since Frontier and Midwest have larger planes NOW (larger than the E190s coming), then they would probably be placed at the top (using Nicelau's theory), and then the rest merged in below. We had the same deal here at Delta, except we both had large INTL widebodies. (we just had more of them at Delta-South). Good luck and get some fun arbitration while you are at it, and don't cry like babies if you don't like what you get like the Easties at USAir. Also, get a new contract (a joint contract) BEFORE you do arbitration, which is another thing USAir forgot to do.


Bye Bye--General Lee

But Northwest's are bigger than yours! And your not allowed to fly them! An inferior pilot group flying jets bigger than the superior pilot group is allowed to. What is this world coming to?

 

[Popeye0537]

And the arbitrator awarded the Easties with the top 200 slots due to their larger equipment.

How much "larger" is the 717 than the 190? Those slots went to the widebodies, how many widebodies do you guys operate?

 

[johnsonrod]

How much "larger" is the 717 than the 190? Those slots went to the widebodies, how many widebodies do you guys operate?

What about the 717 with the old seating arrangement (2X2)? How many more seats on that than the typical E190 or even the A318 at Frontier? How many seats on a current RAH/Midwest E170?

 

[AnimalTale]

What about the 717 with the old seating arrangement (2X2)? How many more seats on that than the typical E190 or even the A318 at Frontier? How many seats on a current RAH/Midwest E170?

johnsonrod,

I would rather be unemployed, then work for another commuter again.

BURN THE PLACE DOWN!, Before we totally RUIN our industry. Besides, without Frontier and Midwest operating, the other BIG airlines can raise ticket prices and get the INDUSTRY right sized.

CYA

 

[Minimaniac]

As I understand it, the old 717 configuration accommodated 88 passengers. The first 2 E190's will be configured for 94 seats. Both airplanes have the potential to seat more, and the 717 can seat more than the E190 with max density seating. The A318 is pretty much on par with the 717 in terms of max capacity, and the E195 (which has not been ordered) could be right up there with the other two airframes. In all, it is a wash, with a slight advantage going to the 717 and A318.

 

[Kalifornia]

As I understand it, the old 717 configuration accommodated 88 passengers. The first 2 E190's will be configured for 94 seats. Both airplanes have the potential to seat more, and the 717 can seat more than the E190 with max density seating. The A318 is pretty much on par with the 717 in terms of max capacity, and the E195 (which has not been ordered) could be right up there with the other two airframes. In all, it is a wash, with a slight advantage going to the 717 and A318.

I know you're trying to play nice on here...but, what a moronic thought. Your bird brain wages are partly why this career is in it's epidemic sickly shape as may fly 100 seat aircraft, but virtually you fly a 35 seat passenger airplanes Mr. Shiny Jet Syndrome rep. It's like if Delta merged with Skybus when they were still around and they demanded the same seniority as NWA because they also flew A320s. Chataqua is the next Skybus fluffs.