How did DALPA treat PanAm?

[tblosser]

Yep sounds like the "Ole Delta Mentality"...it is alright to screw these Pan Am guys because they would have lost their jobs anyway. Great. I'm glad that I was one of the ones that didn't get the opportunity to go from the Blue Ball to Delta. That aside, I wish all the NWA and DAL airmen success in the establishment of a fair and equitable seniority list. Please do not repeat the mistakes of 1991! Karma can be such a ....., well you know!

Yep sounds like the "ole sky god mentality"...thanks for the good wishes...1991 is a totally different situation from now.

 

[tblosser]

What does the condition of the airlines in the merger have to do with how one pilot group integrates another into its ranks?

Delta acquired part of Pan Am. It was not a merger of two airlines.

 

[AC560]

Delta acquired part of Pan Am. It was not a merger of two airlines.

Ok well what does the terms of the agreement have to do with the two pilot groups working out an equitable merger of lists? I am failing to see the argument that most are making.

It is akin to saying people in Poland were starving so it was great that Stalin saved them, they should have been thankful.

 

[tblosser]

Ok well what does the terms of the agreement have to do with the two pilot groups working out an equitable merger of lists? I am failing to see the argument that most are making.

It is akin to saying people in Poland were starving so it was great that Stalin saved them, they should have been thankful.

The Pan Am pilots had the option of remaining at Pan Am or going to Delta. It was their choice. Unlike most mergers where there is no choice. If the deal was so bad why would they have gone to Delta? Why would they leave Pan Am and loose seniority? Why would some of them leave Pan Am and basically become new hires in future classes at Delta? To save their jobs.

 

[737 Pylt]

Wow someone finally put you in youre place.Good you deserve it.

Yeah, he really put me in my place bravodoosh! Way to go!

Come talk to me after you guys have to declare BK AGAIN since you cant act like pilots when trying to combine a SL. Go NW baby go!

LMAO! Is that the best you got?
Maybe you should focus on your airlines lack of safety record, and all the lawsuits coming your way sport!:laugh:

Back to the topic at hand.
The Pan Am acquisition was just that. An acquisition, not a merger. Maybe you guys so concerned with the way the seniority was handled should ask the pilots of Pan Am what their thoughts are on the "dirty 30?"

737

 

[glasspilot1]

Pan AM was bankrupt, very much like TWA and USair.

Small correction; as part of the deal, American demanded TWA file chap 11. We were not in B.R. court when the deal was announced.

 

[Morning Wood]

As Delta hired new pilots off the street, they replaced each X on the seniority list with that pilot...inserting them senior to the Pan Am pilots. In other words, Pan Am pilots were inserted JUNIOR to pilots who had not even been hired by Delta as of the date of integration. This is what our great and wonderful Delta family calls "fair and equitable".

Sounds real similar to what NW did by continuing to hire people after Republic was furloughing.

 

[Going2Baja]

Yes but keep in mind that if Delta had done nothing Pan Am was going to fail and these guys that “got screwed” by Delta would have been filing for unemployment.

Not true...Delta was buying some of the routes of Pan Am and some of the equipment. My understanding is that the price DAL agreed to pay for the deal they never paid and FORCED Pan Am to shut down. There is still a pending lawsuit. This will end up being just one more example of ALPA throwing fellow members under the buss for the benefit of $$$.

The current deal is a MERGER of two non BK companies than can make it independently. If the merger is going to happen then they need a MERGER of seniority, not a staple. The benefit to both groups will be a larger/stronger pilot group with many more aircraft and routes. Would someone please tell me the disadvantage of a DOH merger?

And I don't want to talk about "Dirty 20/30/40" or whatever. OK....some PAA guys saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to be the last guys standing at the dance....Oh well. Take a look at the current Aloha deal....New hires still flying the 200's and being paid when 20+ year Capt's are on the street getting unemployment.

My $0.02

Baja

ps. And yes my dad is Ret. PAA 1942-1980 B314 - B747

 

[Toecutter]

The Pan Am pilots had the option of remaining at Pan Am or going to Delta. It was their choice. Unlike most mergers where there is no choice. If the deal was so bad why would they have gone to Delta? Why would they leave Pan Am and loose seniority? Why would some of them leave Pan Am and basically become new hires in future classes at Delta? To save their jobs.

That is true. One more note. The 727 pilots had to "interview" for their jobs at Delta and pass a Delta medical. The A-310 pilots didn't have to for some reason. If I remember correctly, Delta had guys on the street at the time of the acquisition. Not sure how new hires could have bypassed Pan Am pilots.

 

[Donsa320]

Sounds real similar to what NW did by continuing to hire people after Republic was furloughing.

What? It was along time ago but I was there. I do not recall any Republic furloughs. And any new hires went onto the "Blue Book" list and would have been furloughed first. Please explain your comment.

Thanks.

 

[licorice]

What does the condition of the airlines in the merger have to do with how one pilot group integrates another into its ranks?

You're kidding, right? It's called "no windfall" Take, for example an exteme case: Large widebody-flying, well compensated, superior contract pilot group "A"
(but RELATIVELY junior) merges with equally large (in numbers of pilots), low paid, in bancruptcy, commuter pilot group "B" (but RELATIVELY senior). Would DOH or even relative SLI not result in a huge windfall for group "B"? When an SLI is negotiated, it means just that-NEGOTIATED-not tied to any specific DOH or relative methodology. That is why all factors come into play, including payrate/contract/expectations disparity. Otherwise, what would there be to negotiate? That is why there are no "hard" or "set" rules for SLI, they could never cover all the possibilities that might arise in any given merger. And, I might add, this would be true even if there were a "national seniority list" (look at the example above)

 

[tblosser]

That is true. One more note. The 727 pilots had to "interview" for their jobs at Delta and pass a Delta medical. The A-310 pilots didn't have to for some reason. If I remember correctly, Delta had guys on the street at the time of the acquisition. Not sure how new hires could have bypassed Pan Am pilots.

Delta did not have anyone on furlough at the time...in fact they had never furloughed anyone before 1991. The Delta new hires were integrated with Pan Am PFEs who were not represented by ALPA. The 727 guys did have to interview but I am not sure about a medical or what the A310 guys had to do but I would assume it was all standard.

 

[tblosser]

Not true...Delta was buying some of the routes of Pan Am and some of the equipment. My understanding is that the price DAL agreed to pay for the deal they never paid and FORCED Pan Am to shut down. There is still a pending lawsuit. This will end up being just one more example of ALPA throwing fellow members under the buss for the benefit of $$$.

1) How is ALPA responsible for the actions of the Delta management?

2) After deregulation Pan Am refused to change and was doomed. They sold assets to cover their losses until they had nothing left to sell.

The current deal is a MERGER of two non BK companies than can make it independently. If the merger is going to happen then they need a MERGER of seniority, not a staple. The benefit to both groups will be a larger/stronger pilot group with many more aircraft and routes. Would someone please tell me the disadvantage of a DOH merger?

No one wants to staple anyone. The biggest problem right now, imo is the lack of accurate info from either MEC. The stories that the reps from each side are telling are so far apart that I do not know what to think.

And I don't want to talk about "Dirty 20/30/40" or whatever. OK....some PAA guys saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to be the last guys standing at the dance....Oh well. Take a look at the current Aloha deal....New hires still flying the 200's and being paid when 20+ year Capt's are on the street getting unemployment.

My $0.02

Baja

ps. And yes my dad is Ret. PAA 1942-1980 B314 - B747

tblosser

 

[DTW320]

The Wolf is now at your door.

Oh great....is HE now involved too?

 

[aa73]

What? It was along time ago but I was there. I do not recall any Republic furloughs. And any new hires went onto the "Blue Book" list and would have been furloughed first. Please explain your comment.

Thanks.

Republic did indeed start furloughing about six months after the NWA deal (before the lists were merged.) Meanwhile, NWA continued hiring while Republic was furloughing, triggering a settlement between ALPA and NWA whereby the furloughed Republic pilots were immediately transferred to the NWA side. 29 of them landed 757 FO slots, and some of them got 747 F/E.

Ironically enough, the more senior Republic pilots who did not get furloughed ended up temporarily junior to their furloughed brethren, and had to wait their turn to transfer to the NWA side, while their junior fellow pilots were already making 30 to 50k more by transferring to NWA earlier. Weird situation.

73