House Passes Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009

[rumorhasit]

So there is a three year "grace" period then?

 

[Hobit]

Can't ya'll tie this into ASA some how?!

Really, 21 f'n posts and nobody brought this around to an ASA centric thread.

Your all slipping.

 

[kf4amu]

I remember when you needed 2500-3000 hrs to be competitive for a commuter and there were no shortages then. Also, as long as republic is flying 190's for 170 pay rates. We have no chance for higher income.

Those aren't even 170 pay rates. Those are like...37 seat Dash 8 pay rates, but without the good work rules.

The only airlines that go out of business will be the ones that won't pay enough to attract experienced pilots. And for all you **************************************** who say there arent enough pilots only need to think about the thousands of pilots with thousands of hours that have chosen another career.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

Those aren't even 170 pay rates. Those are like...37 seat Dash 8 pay rates, but without the good work rules.

The only airlines that go out of business will be the ones that won't pay enough to attract experienced pilots. And for all you **************************************** who say there arent enough pilots only need to think about the thousands of pilots with thousands of hours that have chosen another career.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/republic.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/piedmont.html

Ok let's see.
At 8 year capt. his guarentee is $6375....yours is $4608

Now...at best, all regionals suck.....at worst, shut your mouth.

You can't make that up in soft money and I know you can't make that up in schedule......so, shut your mouth.

I'm sure you are a real proud Henson Airlines pilot flying with mainline wages and workrules, but your ride sucks and you are still a regional driver despite the hat you wear. Get over yourself and your regional contract.

 

[M-crit]

Someone is going to go out of business due to lack of crews. It just takes too long to bring a zero time person up to speed, and there won't be enough people out there when the majors start retiring people.

Whatever. It is what it is.

I know a guy that went from zero time to multi commercial certificate in 3 months. The game will change; there will no longer be ma and pop flight schools but instead pilot factories that turn out pilots in mere months. You'll still have to get your 1500 hrs though.

 

[flylowman]

Well it looks like you might have to pay some your dues now to get a sorry regional job.

 

[zawillif]

Does anyone have a link to the actual bill? I want to know more about this other than just the ATP minimum...is there any change to work rules, duty times, commuter clauses, etc?

 

[wrxpilot]

I know a guy that went from zero time to multi commercial certificate in 3 months. The game will change; there will no longer be ma and pop flight schools but instead pilot factories that turn out pilots in mere months. You'll still have to get your 1500 hrs though.

Well, that was kinda the point of ASA_Aviators post... You don't exactly build 1500 TT/500 xc/100 night/100 inst in 3 months. It takes a significant amount of time, even for the most dedicated individual.

Because of the downturn, I don't see a shortage anytime in the near future, there's just too many people out there with ATP quals looking for work. Maybe things will change a few years from now, who knows. But it's probably going to be rough in the CFI world with all of the competition between time builders.

 

[JumpersAway]

There is no shortage of qualified pilots- only a shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for crappy wages....................

 

[kf4amu]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/republic.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/piedmont.html

Ok let's see.
At 8 year capt. his guarentee is $6375....yours is $4608

Very few RAH guys have been there 8 years. It could say 500/hr and it wouldn't matter if nobody get its.

Besides, they SHOULD get more to fly a plane twice as big. A less than 1500 dollar difference to fly that airplane is embarrassing. Not to mention to work rules.

 

[A-V-8]

O.K. here is my 1 cent worth. I can’t afford 2 cents because I work at Mesa.

In a pinch airlines like Mesa and some others had to pretty much hire anyone they could. Some guys were pretty much obviously unqualified. Not because of their flight time but because of their attitude. I flew with some guys that it should have been blatantly obvious that they should not be a pilot at all in their interview but they had a pulse and found their way to the training department. All it took was some training to get a multi commercial and walah you are an airline pilot. All they had to do was show up for ground school. That is just about all that some of them are good for after 3 years online. Show up. I could be more productive without them and they had enough time to hold an ATP when I flew with them. (I think it has much more to do with the personality of that person than the thickness of the log book.) You see my point is that in a pinch an airline is going to do what they have to stay afloat. Mesa paid hiring bonuses and paid for housing during training and gave our pilots like $500 bonuses to recruit a qualified pilot. It was kind of like Amway. I don’t know if this bill will pass still requiring an F.O. to have an ATP but if it does it is going to be a big hiccup in a few years.

Right now if an airline hires I bet at least 1000 Apps come in from people who are already typed on that equipment. It will take a while for that sort of thing to clear the system. Then the airlines will eventually work themselves down to the level of hiring folks with just C172 type experience. There are tons of flight instructors who will jump at the first regional that gives them a class date. The issue is that the industry has been stagnant for a while. Once those high time instructors go there will be no one. All of the regionals will run out of applicants at the same time.

The way this problem worked itself in the past was by just lowering the standards of employment to “just come on to class if you have a multi commercial.” Someone who always wanted to be a commercial pilot will not be able to leave their employment for flight training and be on with a regional 4 months later. It will take them at least 2 years (From ETS to Mesa was 2 years and 3 months and I did not have ATP mins when Mesa hired me). Some of the regionals will not be able to recruit people. There will be none for a while because it will take much longer to get through the maze. Will those regionals go out of business? I don’t know but if capacity begins to leave the market from regional’s it will go somewhere. To another regional or back to mainline is anyone’s guess. I don’t have a crystal ball to look into but I think that since the average time someone spends at a regional is 7 years and 29 at a mainline carrier the flying will have to shift back that direction (To gain longevity from pilots) to larger planes to meet the demands of the traveling public with fewer pilots. I hope that I am right.

Sally Mae has quit financing pilot training. Now that it will take a pilot longer to make the journey from Private Pilot to Airline Pilot the bank will be taking on much more risk. With Sally Mae out of the picture and others having already learned from their previous mistakes the supply of pilots will dry up very suddenly. Age 65 kicks in Dec. 2013. My guess is that a year or so from then the economy and attrition will have sucked the supply of ATP qualified pilots that are willing to work for 17K dry. Drastic changes in our industry will follow.

 

[AbOvo]

Well said. The big variable is the approved training programs. Is that going to be Mesa's crutch in the future?

This still has to pass the Senate right? Should we all be voicing our opinions to our senators to make sure things go through unscathed?

 

[rumorhasit]

Here's a real good article with a link to the actual bill.

http://www.maxtrescott.com/max_tres...passengers-bad-for-future-airline-pilots.html

 

[JustaNumber]

Well said. The big variable is the approved training programs. Is that going to be Mesa's crutch in the future?

I don't see how the approved training program will be a variable at all, unless they can get many hundreds or even thousands of hours worth of credit for classroom instruction.

A much more limited supply of pilots, due to lack of training funds and lack of logbook hours, will not balance the greatly increased demand for ATPs who will work for $20K. There will indeed be great changes in the industry if this is signed into law as currently written.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

Those aren't even 170 pay rates. Those are like...37 seat Dash 8 pay rates, but without the good work rules.

The only airlines that go out of business will be the ones that won't pay enough to attract experienced pilots. And for all you **************************************** who say there arent enough pilots only need to think about the thousands of pilots with thousands of hours that have chosen another career.

No worries. I was just showing you that you statement was not true. I think we could have picked any year CA.

Now you want to change your statement......and make it another story. I really don't care. My point is all regionals suck. And every regional tries to make theirs the best.

I just looked at Mesa's 900 rate for 8 year captain.....76 bucks. What regional can say that sucks?

Mesa is full of CCair guys. Remember them. You probably are too young. But that could have been you (ALPA's sacraficial Lamb). 76 bucks in the regional world don't suck. But regional contracts do. Anyway, my airline is better than yours......or whatever.

 

[wrigley23]

As expected there is some language in there about studies to look at commuting in relation to fatigue. I don't see any good coming out of this unless it forces airlines to pay for cost of living in expensive domiciles or includes positive space to domicile like some Cargo/Fractionals do. I just hope it doesn't come down to the point where you have to live where you work just because the govt says so.

 

[rumorhasit]

Well I guess with the new regs about check ride failures I'm kcufed!!! I screwed up on my Instrument(ndb hold) and my commercial about 7years ago. Not to make excusses but I was working 50hrs week and flt training about 25-30 hrs a week. Although I have almost 1300 hrs with a cfi,cfii, mei, meii with about 450 dual given, Looks like I may never be in the airline industry. I need to sell all my aviation crap and go back to school!!! Kcuf me!!!!!

 

[blesko]

I believe the ATP checkride has to be a PIC evaluation, so if that's the case, the airline won't be able to administer that ride unless its an upgrade scenario. Perhaps the PTS will have to change to meet that requirement.

 

[buscap]

I just looked at Mesa's 900 rate for 8 year captain.....76 bucks. What regional can say that sucks? .

I made more than that on a 50 seater at 8 years...so I can say that sucks.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Anyone on a seniority list is grandfathered in, so the hour requirements won't hurt anyone who's furloughed with less than 1,500 hours.