House Passes Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009

[kf4amu]

I just looked at Mesa's 900 rate for 8 year captain.....76 bucks. What regional can say that sucks?

I can say that sucks.

Include soft pay from a decent contract and all it takes is one cancellation or some delays or block or better to close that gap. And that wouldn't matter if the planes were the same size, but we're talking -900's vs 50 seaters here.

How can people flying 50 seaters expect better pay when bottom feeders are flying aircraft almost twice as big for the same pay?

 

[doh]

As expected there is some language in there about studies to look at commuting in relation to fatigue. I don't see any good coming out of this unless it forces airlines to pay for cost of living in expensive domiciles or includes positive space to domicile like some Cargo/Fractionals do. I just hope it doesn't come down to the point where you have to live where you work just because the govt says so.

They are going to run up against the domecile closures. Some of the airlines open and close domeciles multiple times a year.

 

[sayrejm]

this will only cost the airlines more $ trying to get all the FO's typed in the aircraft

dont they get typed anyway? we all got typed as FOs

and in my opinion, i think its a good idea for an airline pilot to actually get an airline pilots license. hard to not see why not. makes sense. your an airline pilot.... not a charter pilot or banner tower or cfi.... thats why they have ATPs to begin with.

 

[ace6453]

dont they get typed anyway? we all got typed as FOs

and in my opinion, i think its a good idea for an airline pilot to actually get an airline pilots license. hard to not see why not. makes sense. your an airline pilot.... not a charter pilot or banner tower or cfi.... thats why they have ATPs to begin with.

What part SIC privileges only do you not understand. That is NOT a type.

 

[ex j-41]

Wonder how many people are going to doc their logbooks? 1500hrs doesn't mean anything if the hours can't be verified.

 

[JustaNumber]

Anyone on a seniority list is grandfathered in, so the hour requirements won't hurt anyone who's furloughed with less than 1,500 hours.

I didn't see that anywhere in the bill (although I could have missed it). My understanding is that everyone who wishes to fly Part 121 will have 3 years from the signing of the bill to get the ATP. Please show me if I am wrong, as I would like to be clear on this as well.

 

[JustaNumber]

I believe the ATP checkride has to be a PIC evaluation, so if that's the case, the airline won't be able to administer that ride unless its an upgrade scenario. Perhaps the PTS will have to change to meet that requirement.

I could see how the airlines might be able to get around this. They could just pair the FO up with an instructor, tell the FO he is the PIC for the purposes of this evaluation, and then give him an ATP checkride. Just because he would be tested as a PIC does not mean the airline has to employ him as a captain. It actually would be a very cheap exercise for the airline.

 

[A-V-8]

Maybe they will just have to meet the ATP mins and not actually have one.

 

[jmreii]

Among other things, this would require every airline pilot to have an ATP. It passed overwhelmingly, 409 to 11. Now to the Senate...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/10/14/2098878.aspx

This bill is having trouble in the senate so far, a left and a right to the kisser. This bill is starting to wobble. I wouldn't get too happy just yet.

 

[AvroJockey]

You don't get it. Airlines are going to go out of business if more people don't get into the industry...

Um...or maybe it will result in them having to pay pilots decent wages to attract people to the industry. I deem this as good for pilots...it seems that congress has stopped the race to the bottom.

BTW...when I got hired you had to have at least 1500 to be considered remotely qualified for the job. 500 hours is not enough experience to be in the right seat of an airliner. There is no valid argument for it!

 

[cldsfr79]

I know a guy that went from zero time to multi commercial certificate in 3 months. The game will change; there will no longer be ma and pop flight schools but instead pilot factories that turn out pilots in mere months. You'll still have to get your 1500 hrs though.

Many seem to keep stating that a new pilot will have to pay for all this flight time or that there will be pilot factories pumping out guys. Even if student pilots paid for this flight time, which would be nearly impossible to do, it would take 1.5+ years if you flew 3 hours a day everyday.

What ever happened to working to gain your experience and flight time? After I got my commercial rating I started to flight instruct. I was in college at the time and built over 1900+ hours of instruction. By the time I was hired at a regional when I graduated college, I had 2300+ hours which included 275+ hours of multi time. It doesn't hurt to earn your keep.

Some may argue that the pilot training group will dry up with no one having the money or time to dedicate to the "new" airline requirements. I disagree. Nearly all my students were middle aged adults who just wanted to learn to fly for fun. Not everyone who learns to fly wants to be an airline pilot.

Some argue that flying around a traffic pattern or flying holds with students for hours is pointless. I fully disagree. Those hours of instruction help teach you to think ahead, anticipate moves, solve problems, and to be a leader in the flightdeck (even in a 172). While instructing I had in-flight emergencies from smoke in the cockpit, radios failures, gear collapsing on landing, etc.; I saw things, was challenged and had to think quickly. It's what helps shape you and prepare you for an airline job.

And by the way, my first job paid 17k a year and I did pay for my ATP.

 

[trainer8]

I could see how the airlines might be able to get around this. They could just pair the FO up with an instructor, tell the FO he is the PIC for the purposes of this evaluation, and then give him an ATP checkride. Just because he would be tested as a PIC does not mean the airline has to employ him as a captain. It actually would be a very cheap exercise for the airline.

Unbelievable...just "tell" the FO he is the PIC? Shall we have revenue pax on board while we do his check ride? Do you read the FARs?

This is why they are re-writing the regs.

T8

 

[Cloudroller]

I believe the ATP checkride has to be a PIC evaluation, so if that's the case, the airline won't be able to administer that ride unless its an upgrade scenario. Perhaps the PTS will have to change to meet that requirement.

Most airlines (other than Regionals) full (no SIC BS) type everyone one. Having the full type has nothing to do with upgrade or being the PIC. And it does not mean you can act as the PIC. To be a PIC you still need a Fed Ride, and a few other things.


121 carriers should have always had flight minimums, at least to match 135 mins.

 

[Cloudroller]

I could see how the airlines might be able to get around this. They could just pair the FO up with an instructor, tell the FO he is the PIC for the purposes of this evaluation, and then give him an ATP checkride. Just because he would be tested as a PIC does not mean the airline has to employ him as a captain. It actually would be a very cheap exercise for the airline.

Your right it would be cheap. All it would take is short training event and a Type Ride in a Sim.

I dont know how you could be a PIC without actually passing a Fed Ride. A type rating does not mean your a Pic.

 

[vectorvictor]

I believe the ATP checkride has to be a PIC evaluation, so if that's the case, the airline won't be able to administer that ride unless its an upgrade scenario. Perhaps the PTS will have to change to meet that requirement.

Perhaps it shouldn't. I'll trade experience and time for a certificate anyday. Raising the bar, only to put a step stool in front of it, degrades everyone.

 

[blesko]

Most airlines (other than Regionals) full (no SIC BS) type everyone one. Having the full type has nothing to do with upgrade or being the PIC. And it does not mean you can act as the PIC. To be a PIC you still need a Fed Ride, and a few other things.


121 carriers should have always had flight minimums, at least to match 135 mins.

Guys we're not talking about types here. You can get a full type at 300 hours and a private pilot certificate. It's been done its currently being done, although not at the 121 level.

Airlines MAY be issuing types to F/O's, but are they administering the ATP checkride, not just type training. There is a difference. A majority of the info is covered under the type ride, just a different section of the 8710.3d handbook that has to be followed.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The bill REQUIRES an ATP for Part 121.

But, what about:
Part 135
Part 125
Part 91 Subpart K
Part 91 Subpart F
???

cliff
NBO

 

[Brasilia Pup]

Wow, 57 posts and I'm the first to say....

MESA SUCKS!!!

Ok, back to our discussion.

 

[milky]

Some argue that flying around a traffic pattern or flying holds with students for hours is pointless. I fully disagree. Those hours of instruction help teach you to think ahead, anticipate moves, solve problems, and to be a leader in the flightdeck (even in a 172). While instructing I had in-flight emergencies from smoke in the cockpit, radios failures, gear collapsing on landing, etc.; I saw things, was challenged and had to think quickly. It's what helps shape you and prepare you for an airline job.

And by the way, my first job paid 17k a year and I did pay for my ATP.

No offense, but you valuing your hard work and hours building to the tune of working up to a $17k/year job is exactly the problem. If you really worked years and years to achieve the skills to be able to get an ATP, and think those skills are marketable, then working for $17k/year after paying for your own ATP is terrible.

 

[CFI2766]

No offense, but you valuing your hard work and hours building to the tune of working up to a $17k/year job is exactly the problem. If you really worked years and years to achieve the skills to be able to get an ATP, and think those skills are marketable, then working for $17k/year after paying for your own ATP is terrible.

It's easy to judge this from the sideline, but comments like this are generally pointless. No offense to you, but the goal isn't a $17k/year job. If there was another way to get there, as in not the military, people would take it. Everyone would like to be a 74 Captain, but nowadays that typically means time in a seat that you don't really want. I'm referring to the $17k/year RJ fo job.