House Passes Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009

[JoeMerchant]

It's easy to judge this from the sideline, but comments like this are generally pointless. No offense to you, but the goal isn't a $17k/year job. If there was another way to get there, as in not the military, people would take it. Everyone would like to be a 74 Captain, but nowadays that typically means time in a seat that you don't really want. I'm referring to the $17k/year RJ fo job.

The "goal" is precisely what caused the "$17k/yr RJ job...ALPA created very high pay at the top which was subsidized by low entry pay. In hindsight, the corporate pilot pay model works better...Lower top end pay, and higher entry pay.

 

[CFI2766]

The "goal" is precisely what caused the "$17k/yr RJ job...ALPA created very high pay at the top which was subsidized by low entry pay. In hindsight, the corporate pilot pay model works better...Lower top end pay, and higher entry pay.

There's a lot of truth to this. Except the corporate pilot part.

That being said, this isn't just an ALPA deal. UAW, Teamsters, just about any member of the AFL/CIO fits the description given.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There's a lot of truth to this. Except the corporate pilot part.

That being said, this isn't just an ALPA deal. UAW, Teamsters, just about any member of the AFL/CIO fits the description given.

It is especially bad with ALPA/APA...Very large gap between top and bottom, although that gap has narrowed as the top has come down and the bottom has come up.

Most corporate jobs start higher than regional jobs, but don't top out as much as airline jobs...Probably a better model....

 

[PCL_128]

This bill is having trouble in the senate so far, a left and a right to the kisser. This bill is starting to wobble. I wouldn't get too happy just yet.

The only part of the bill that is having trouble in the Senate is the part allowing pilots to use some sort of approved college credit in place of flight hours. Senator Schumer is doing his best to get that part killed, but he supports the rest of the bill.

 

[jmreii]

The only part of the bill that is having trouble in the Senate is the part allowing pilots to use some sort of approved college credit in place of flight hours. Senator Schumer is doing his best to get that part killed, but he supports the rest of the bill.

I believe a senator of Tenn, who is in big purples pocket has this bill tied up with the big purple bill saying you better layoff trying to allow easy access for big purple's drivers to unionize or he plans to vote no, killing the aviation safety bill.

 

[PCL_128]

I believe a senator of Tenn, who is in big purples pocket has this bill tied up with the big purple bill saying you better layoff trying to allow easy access for big purple's drivers to unionize or he plans to vote no, killing the aviation safety bill.

Sen. Baucus still says he's going to move the bill out of committee before the end of the year. He may end up stripping the FedEx provision out to do it, but frankly, that provision is of no importance to our profession. It's just something on the Teamsters wishlist to make it easier to organize FedEx ground workers. I'd love to see it happen, but linking it to this bill isn't necessary, and Schumer will make sure that it gets stripped out if necessary to get Baucus to move the bill to the floor.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Reading some of these posts reminded me of something:
I started out as a 2LT pilot trainee, making about $15K/year. I ended as a capt making $48K. I paid for my own ATP, and could not get a job. I turned down Comair's offer of paying $14K for my own training, to start with them as an FO at $14.4/year. And then I sat in non-flying jobs for 9 years.

cliff
NBO

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There's a lot of truth to this. Except the corporate pilot part.

That being said, this isn't just an ALPA deal. UAW, Teamsters, just about any member of the AFL/CIO fits the description given.

It goes beyond the pilot professions. Our culture of having the newbie "pay his dues" is prevelant in most professions. Only a tool would place the onus on a single organization....

 

[milky]

It's easy to judge this from the sideline, but comments like this are generally pointless. No offense to you, but the goal isn't a $17k/year job. If there was another way to get there, as in not the military, people would take it. Everyone would like to be a 74 Captain, but nowadays that typically means time in a seat that you don't really want. I'm referring to the $17k/year RJ fo job.

Well, then why do you guys complain all damned day about low wages and crappy work hours? You obviously believe that you are worth every dime of the pay that you are willing to take in hopes that maybe someday you will be paid better later. You weren't even tricked into taking this job.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well, then why do you guys complain all damned day about low wages and crappy work hours? You obviously believe that you are worth every dime of the pay that you are willing to take in hopes that maybe someday you will be paid better later. You weren't even tricked into taking this job.

What do you recommend for an alternative? Instead of these guys not taking the job as you suggest... who should?

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The "goal" is precisely what caused the "$17k/yr RJ job...ALPA created very high pay at the top which was subsidized by low entry pay. In hindsight, the corporate pilot pay model works better...Lower top end pay, and higher entry pay.

What people don't realize is that making more pay in the beginning would lead to more money overall due to the magic of retirement funds. It is better to make more in the beginning, and save more over the course of your whole career.

Oh well. It will be okay since ALPA is in charge!

 

[Poahi]

This is going to be the biggest PFT bill the airline industry has ever seen. The skies will be littered with CFI's trying to build time without actual students in the airplane. For those who can't wait six years to teach their way to an ATP, they will choose another profession. For those with money, they will buy 1,250 hours.

This means fewer regional flights and more opportunities for SWA.

I don't know what the best answer is, but both pilots on 3407 met ATP experience requirements.

 

[CFI2766]

What people don't realize is that making more pay in the beginning would lead to more money overall due to the magic of retirement funds. It is better to make more in the beginning, and save more over the course of your whole career.

Oh well. It will be okay since ALPA is in charge!

Bingo. Spot on. Reference: compound interest.


I don't really get the jab at ALPA, though. They aren't in charge of my career; I am.

 

[CFI2766]

What do you recommend for an alternative? Instead of these guys not taking the job as you suggest... who should?

Thank you, well put. Good job.


It's easy to look down upon the RJ FO as 'what's wrong' with the industry. I think it more accurate to look up at the metaphorical 74 Captain as to 'what's wrong' with the industry.

 

[30West]

What part SIC privileges only do you not understand. That is NOT a type.

Actually, it is very much the same Type Rating, and appears on your certificate as such under Ratings.
Only difference is it comes with a Limitation prohibiting exercising PIC privileges. It's the same as being issued a Type Rating with an SIC Required or Circling Approach VMC ONLY limitation on it.
When you take a PIC checkride, the Limitation is then removed.

It won't get you a job with an operator that requires a type to meet INSURANCE requirements, but from strictly an FAA certification standpoint there's absolutely no difference..

 

[ground_fog]

After reading the bill, am I correct that the 1500 hour requirement basically kicks in 3 years from enactment of the bill? or does it kick in immediately? From my reading, it seems to slowly phase in alot. Thanks for the clarification in advance.

 

[JustaNumber]

After reading the bill, am I correct that the 1500 hour requirement basically kicks in 3 years from enactment of the bill? or does it kick in immediately? From my reading, it seems to slowly phase in alot. Thanks for the clarification in advance.

Almost. It says that 3 years after the bill signing, all part 121 pilots shall have an ATP. How that is accomplished (crewmember vs. airline responsibility) is yet to be determined.

 

[milky]

What do you recommend for an alternative? Instead of these guys not taking the job as you suggest... who should?

Make better personal choices in life. If you do not think you are worth only $17k/year, then do not take a job at that rate. As I already stated, you can make more working unskilled labor jobs. If you think that it's appropriate to make $17k/year as a pilot, then do not complain about the wages. You cannot have it both ways. Do not blame somebody else that makes more after working many years in the industry for the problems with the wages and work rules in the industry if you are willing to take a job at such low wages. THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LINED UP FOR THE LOW WAGE JOBS! As long as people are willing to fly jets for those wages, then the market price is set.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

You could change careers to be a teacher.

The only jobs you will find in my state will be the lower-paying private schools, or in very small public districts WAY out in the boonies.

After your 4 year degree, and your PFT semester of Student Teaching, expect to sub (if you can) for a year or so (if you can't try and find a non-teaching job), and then get a private school, or very small public school job starting at about $18K per year. You do NOT get unemployment in the summer!

It is a LOT better than flying???

cliff
NBO

 

[Lynxman]

When will this be voted on in the senate?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Make better personal choices in life. If you do not think you are worth only $17k/year, then do not take a job at that rate. As I already stated, you can make more working unskilled labor jobs. If you think that it's appropriate to make $17k/year as a pilot, then do not complain about the wages. You cannot have it both ways. Do not blame somebody else that makes more after working many years in the industry for the problems with the wages and work rules in the industry if you are willing to take a job at such low wages. THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LINED UP FOR THE LOW WAGE JOBS! As long as people are willing to fly jets for those wages, then the market price is set.

Re-read my post so that you might be able to answer it. If not Americans who should fly US registered jets for US companies in the United States.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LINED UP FOR THE LOW WAGE JOBS! As long as people are willing to fly jets for those wages, then the market price is set.

The real solution is to establish barriers to entry. The requirement to have an ATP for 121 ops is a nice start. Not only does it place more experienced (safer) pilots in the right seat at the regionals but it could create less supply and more demand. Basic economics suggest that wages at the regionals will rise as the demand for "qualified" pilots increases. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the Senate pushes it through.

 

[livin'thesim]

3000 hours for captain and 1000 hours 121 time!

Yahoo!

 

[Crizz]

The real solution is to establish barriers to entry. The requirement to have an ATP for 121 ops is a nice start. Not only does it place more experienced (safer) pilots in the right seat at the regionals but it could create less supply and more demand. Basic economics suggest that wages at the regionals will rise as the demand for "qualified" pilots increases. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the Senate pushes it through.

Bingo

Its no wonder this nation is so effed up. People dont understand basic principals of supply and demand. Everyone is so focused on how everything affects them personally at this very moment in time, and principal and the future be dahmned!

I see this bill as long overdue and completely embarrasing (for the FAA) that it has to come from the legislature.

The fact is this: It closes a long standing loophole that has allowed vastly underqualified individuals in the right seat of an airliner conducting scheduled service under part 121. This loophole has allowed for unlimited supply and artificially low prices (wages) for far too long. The airlines have been able to continually overplay their hand and slash compensation for their most skilled employees largely without reprocussion. (except a few experience related fatalities and wrongful death lawsuits) Until now. This profession will once again need to have incentive for the people who are now mandated to be qualified.

Having prerequisate qualifications comensurate with duties to be performed is never a bad idea. Quit being so dahmmed short sighted and look at the big picture.

 

[mrflier]

The point was made earlier, both pilots in the Buffalo crash met ATP minimums. Also, total time and having the ATP are not good predictors of pilot proficiency. The bill is messed up.

The beneficiaries will be the colleges accredited by AABI. AABI is controlled by a few colleges. Unless you want to work your way up the hard way, the quickest path to the right seat will be an AABI-approved school.

Edit to add:

"Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement."

and

" an assessment of the quality of pilots entering the part 121 air carrier workforce from all sources after receiving training from flight training providers, including Aviation Accreditation Board International, universities, pilot training organizations, and the military, utilizing the training records of part 121 air carriers, including consideration of any relationships between flight training providers and air carriers;"

 

[Crizz]

The point was made earlier, both pilots in the Buffalo crash met ATP minimums. Also, total time and having the ATP are not good predictors of pilot proficiency. The bill is messed up.

While I could not agree more with your premise, I still believe this is an imperfect step in the right direction. It's no secret you can take a fresh private pilot and give them 20 hours dual in a CRJ sim, and they could pass a SIC checkride. It's also no secret that the physical manipulation of an aircraft is a very small part of the duties of a professional pilot. Ive known many sharp pilots whose "stick and rudder" was marginal. And many chuck yeagars who couldnt make a good decision to save their life.

None of that changes the fact that more hours in an aircraft, as a blanket generalization, means more experiences to draw from in a professional pilot's toolbox of knowledge.

The flying public deserves to have qualified people behind the cockpit door. Many sitting in the right seat now could not rent a seminole on their own. Thats a fact. The FAA has allowed the flying public to be exposed to and subject to the basic skill building of underqualified crew members in an airline environment, at a huge cost to safety. While the flying public has enjoyed historical low ticket prices, they are not the ones actually setting the prices. The airlines set the prices they deem appropriate based on their own economics. So, the argument that Joe Public didnt pay enough for his ticket is completely irrelevant to the fact a loophole exists that maintains low wages for entry level pilots.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

I can say that sucks.

Include soft pay from a decent contract and all it takes is one cancellation or some delays or block or better to close that gap. And that wouldn't matter if the planes were the same size, but we're talking -900's vs 50 seaters here.

How can people flying 50 seaters expect better pay when bottom feeders are flying aircraft almost twice as big for the same pay?

Who makes more than that on a 900??? We are all botton feeders.

One cancellation...please! We all suck and you know it. Go check it out for yourself. You are making "feel good" statements, but they don't "fact check". Let's look at one situation at a time and check the facts. Man, I'm telling you all regionals suck. There is no Mesa Sucks. We all have issues. For example, look at Mesa's monthly sick bank vs. ASA's new contract.
Look at Mesa's reserve rules. Look at Mesa's 900 Ca Rates. Look at the fact that Comair was the biggest pay for Training airline in the business, before they went out for 89 days. I remember when Comair was shameful to work for before the strike. Look at Comair's givebacks. I'm not dogging Comair. Who is the best regional. Who cares. They all suck and you will find it out, if you research it. I'm saying, we should all come together and work together. But, we all look for that scapegoat. We all want to be the best and point the finger at who we think is the worst. Very few had any control. Now we have all the control if we work together. We all suck, so let's all work together to change our situation. Flame away!

 

[NEWSOUTH]

I made more than that on a 50 seater at 8 years...so I can say that sucks.

Who did you work for? Let's check it out.

 

[kf4amu]

I'm saying, we should all come together and work together. But, we all look for that scapegoat. We all want to be the best and point the finger at who we think is the worst. Very few had any control. Now we have all the control if we work together. We all suck, so let's all work together to change our situation. Flame away!

That would be nice, but I think in reality it won't happen. The most senior pilot groups generally actually care about their pay and QOL while the junior pilot groups only want the quick upgrade and the major job. I think we've kind of plateu'd with regional airlines size wise...nobody is going to be doubling in size anymore, and quick upgrades at bottom feeders are not going to happen for the time being.

But that won't stop the next pilot group at some crappy bottom feeder trying to jump ahead because they don't care about their pay.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

That would be nice, but I think in reality it won't happen. The most senior pilot groups generally actually care about their pay and QOL while the junior pilot groups only want the quick upgrade and the major job. I think we've kind of plateu'd with regional airlines size wise...nobody is going to be doubling in size anymore, and quick upgrades at bottom feeders are not going to happen for the time being.

But that won't stop the next pilot group at some crappy bottom feeder trying to jump ahead because they don't care about their pay.

Your right. Good luck.