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OHGOON said:
There is a difference between pissed off and lividly enraged. If the FLOPS guys choose to just slink away from the coming fight, then they deserve being second class, fortunately I believe there will be a fight!

Great example:
Click to expand...

And, what happens when Flops strikes and their non-union brethren are forced to fly the Flops trips or be fired?
 
Flex chose to stay non-union...guess it would be a matter of laying in the bed they made for themselves. Off course there would most likely be enough dummies that would do the dirty deed and cover the trips. I can hear them bitching already about how unfair it is that they ended up on a list for life that ostracizes them.

Don't think it will come to that though; even Ricci realizes that he cannot afford to create that much strife and hope to stay profitable. What will most likely happen is that FLOPS will get a bump up in pay and bennies in their next contract and FLOPS will take some kind of haircut to achieve an uneasy parity over time. This of course will inevitably reinflame the talk of Union at Flex all over again. It will be interesting to watch, especially if and when CA will be asked to join the party.
 
...FLOPS will get a bump up in pay and bennies their next contract...

Correction: ...FLOPS will get a CONSIDERABLE bump up in pay and at bare minimum, industry standard bennies in their next contract...

Nothing else will suffice.
 
OHGOON, as a Flexjet pilot let me first say that your statement is true that we chose to stay non-union. Right, wrong or indifferent, that was the choice that we as a pilot group decided.

Second, we have owners that are with Options, NJA, CS and XOjet. Please, show me how we are supposed to know if we are flying Options owners or not should you chose to exercise your option and strike. Also, I keep hearing that NJA is so far off in their negotiations that they will be striking and once again their owners will exercise their obvious right to fly the contract they have with us. So please, tell me how we are, as you are eluding to, being scabs and being put out on "the list?"

Since we are being told that we will be run and operated as two completely separate entities, and the fact that Options has not bought us, but Options' parent company has, how again are we wrong flying the contracts that we have.

Thanks

P.S., I sincerely hope that with this acquisition that this not only makes our two companies even stronger in the marketplace, but also brings your salaries and benefits up to ours and not the other way around.


OHGOON said:
Flex chose to stay non-union...guess it would be a matter of laying in the bed they made for themselves. Off course there would most likely be enough dummies that would do the dirty deed and cover the trips. I can hear them bitching already about how unfair it is that they ended up on a list for life that ostracizes them.
Click to expand...
 
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Jetwash is spot on with how we all feel.

We use to be proud to be a Flight Options pilot because we were once the"industry innovators" and received industry standard pay. Now being told that we are the "value" option, and our pay shows it even though we do the same job as everyone else. How can we keep moral up when we made to feel like we are "less than" our sister company making $60,000 less. I trust our pay will eventually come up, but the question is, will it be done sooner because it is the right thing to do, or are we going to have to negotiate for it later.
 
Cl300,
Googone is a blowhard, please don't listen to him. I am a CA pilot, and we are soon going to be decertifying the Teamsters. What a mistake it was voting them in. Us, (CA & Flex) will soon be un-union brothers and sisters. Can't wait for the day. Googone is trying to breath his smelly dragon breath on us, please don't take him as an example as the typical CA pilot. I'm looking forward to working with you and keeping our fractional industry alive.
 
Frac Cap said:
Jetwash is spot on with how we all feel.

We use to be proud to be a Flight Options pilot because we were once the"industry innovators" and received industry standard pay. Now being told that we are the "value" option, and our pay shows it even though we do the same job as everyone else. How can we keep moral up when we made to feel like we are "less than" our sister company making $60,000 less. I trust our pay will eventually come up, but the question is, will it be done sooner because it is the right thing to do, or are we going to have to negotiate for it later.
Click to expand...

It was not cool, a poor choice of words, and the optics are terrible. Not only for pilots, but for all personnel and...the owners.

As with most acquisitions, some inequities may exist in the short term, but this type of company can't survive with a two tier compensation arrangement and will most likely work out something sooner than one may think. It would be pretty lame if they haven't already considered this and have a plan that they will roll out as the dust clears.

Nobody will be completely overjoyed, they never are, but a balance with compensation will be struck.
 
X-rated said:
And, what happens when Flops strikes and their non-union brethren are forced to fly the Flops trips or be fired?
Click to expand...

I hope you understand the legalities of your operation better than that, we can not fly Options trips. Options owners are not a part of our interchange agreement. Of course most owners have multiple shares with multiple companies. We are still a separate company, so we cannot fly Options trips just like we can not fly Netjet trips with owners not a part of our program.
 
Yes, it was not cool for management to label us the "value option" and I'm sure in time, they will try to find a more proper way to phrase it. Because it will work against us to continue trying to give the same type of service as every other frac operator gives. If we feel that we are the "value" choice and our pay proves it, then some guys may feel justified in just doing the bare minimum because that is what they are paying for. I don't agree with that philosophy. Our passengers pay good money for our service and the value they get is only on the equipment used to fly them and not the professionals servicing them. Having that type of low self worth as a pilot group will only drive our customers away and then where will we be.
 
By what date will they tell you if they are going to extend your contract?
 
Humphreybogart said:
Cl300,
Googone is a blowhard, please don't listen to him. I am a CA pilot, and we are soon going to be decertifying the Teamsters. What a mistake it was voting them in. Us, (CA & Flex) will soon be un-union brothers and sisters. Can't wait for the day. Googone is trying to breath his smelly dragon breath on us, please don't take him as an example as the typical CA pilot. I'm looking forward to working with you and keeping our fractional industry alive.
Click to expand...


I'm not a big fan of the Teamsters as well. But, I think trying to decertify them when there is a chance of merging in with Flops seems foolish. Without representation all of your seniority would be stapled at the bottom. Flex is different. They will operate as a separate company. I can't see CA still operating as separate. They will be merged into Flops. Since Flops is lacking a midsize plane it may only be the Sovereigns that would make the transition.

Wake up guys. Cessna/Textron is getting rid of the program. Look at the trend, ie. Raytheon and Bombardier. Your only hope is another fractional scooping up whats left. I don't see NJ doing that.
 
Hey Chief, I know it sounds messed up but if we have no union or a different union then the Teamsters, we get merged via Allegheny Mohawk which would probably be relative seniority. If we have the Teamsters we get merged via Teamster merger policy which is DOH with fences. In a DOH scenario we would get creamed as 3/5 th of their pilot group was hired prior to 2001.
 
outerfix said:
Hey Chief, I know it sounds messed up but if we have no union or a different union then the Teamsters, we get merged via Allegheny Mohawk which would probably be relative seniority. If we have the Teamsters we get merged via Teamster merger policy which is DOH with fences. In a DOH scenario we would get creamed as 3/5 th of their pilot group was hired prior to 2001.
Click to expand...

I don't know the Teamster merger policy but I'm certain you will get creamed without them. CA is slowly dissolving so your only hope is Flops picking up the pieces and including some of the pilots.
 
Frac Cap said:
Jetwash is spot on with how we all feel.

We use to be proud to be a Flight Options pilot because we were once the"industry innovators" and received industry standard pay. Now being told that we are the "value" option, and our pay shows it even though we do the same job as everyone else. How can we keep moral up when we made to feel like we are "less than" our sister company making $60,000 less. I trust our pay will eventually come up, but the question is, will it be done sooner because it is the right thing to do, or are we going to have to negotiate for it later.
Click to expand...

I think we'll have then answer when Options decides to extend the contract for the final year, or not. If they do the right thing and don't extend, they could offer a compensation package that brings the pilots at least close to industry standard. If they extend, they're clearly intent on wringing every last dollar out of the lopsided deal they pulled on 1108.


Personally, I'm not optimistic, knowing how much animus this management group has towards unions in general, and this 1108 leadership in particular. Even if Directional buys CS, or more likely the assets, they could easily split it up - the older airplanes going to Options, with a new order book from Cessna going to Flex (orders at a deep discount, just like I'm sure Kenn got from Bombardier to take Flex off their hands). Kenn's in this to make money, and you can be sure he's not risking much of his own money to get it done. But if he can take an opportunity to run the IBT out of town, or if not then screw them over, I think he'll take a little less profit to get it done.


On the single carrier lawsuit idea, I don't know if that's even possible given that Flex is not an air carrier.


Good luck to all the pilots who have to live through this as pawns in the game. My only advice is, if you're under 40, the airlines are starting to hire - go and don't look back. This side of the business isn't what it used to be, if it ever was.
 
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Chief, I'm not anti-Teamster I'm anti-Teamster merger policy. I had the same viewpoint as you until I did some independent research. Google Mcckaskill-Bond act, it's the law of the land. Google FO seniority list. Log onto the ibt website and look at FO's contract. Don't be a lamb led to slaughter and do your own research as if your career depends on it, cause it does.
 
notapilot said:
I hope you understand the legalities of your operation better than that, we can not fly Options trips. Options owners are not a part of our interchange agreement. Of course most owners have multiple shares with multiple companies. We are still a separate company, so we cannot fly Options trips just like we can not fly Netjet trips with owners not a part of our program.
Click to expand...

Really? Have you ever heard of a sell off? All that's required is a pt 135 certificate. It's gets a bit more complicated when the same parent company can sell off trips to it's "non-union sister operator" thereby taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. A strike would be bad for Flight Options but equally good for Flex while being neutral for the parent company. See the Rub?

Some are inferring that would be scabbing. I'm not sure that's true so long as the Flex pilot doesn't fly the Flops tail. Would a Delta pilot be scabbing if he carried a would be UA passenger who changed flights because of a strike?
 
This. Accusing Flex pilots of being scabs for flying Flex trips on Flex planes is asinine.
 
Guys lets stop with all the rumors and falsehoods. Under federal law we have more rights as a non union group, than a member of 1108. I would guess if bought we will be operated separately like Flex Jet. With 1108 we will all be on the street, and that's a fact.
 
Salaviat said:
Guys lets stop with all the rumors and falsehoods. Under federal law we have more rights as a non union group, than a member of 1108. I would guess if bought we will be operated separately like Flex Jet. With 1108 we will all be on the street, and that's a fact.
Click to expand...

Please support this?

I was vehemently against the union coming on property, yet feel that the only thing dumber than voting them in would be voting them out.
 

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