Hold on tight

[Fresh Air]

Fresh Air, I find it hard to believe that you would be unhappy with a deal that places over 90 percent of CS pilots below the furlough line on a combined list.

I'm not as nice as our Union leaders. Under Teamsters policy you get to keep your big paychecks and stay in your big airplanes. I would prefer a seat flush, which would put you in a Phenom at best, furloughed at worst, and me in a Sovereign. But that's not going to happen, and I accept that.

 

[Fresh Air]

Fresh air you need to read your contract and McCaskil-Bond. The Teamster position is the same in both cases but if we are not Teamsters, an arbitrator gets to decide and I guarantee you we will do better then DOH with fences.

Nah, my dues money pays lawyers to interpret that stuff.

 

[Fresh Air]

Well, it's been fun. I've shared some info to the best of my ability, but don't want to degenerate into the usual pro/anti Union squabbling. Time to do something other than type.

Good Luck, all!

 

[outerfix]

Not to worry, we probably will get flushed as fleets change and you will get your wish. The problem is you will have 250 pilots who will blame the Teamsters, with good reason, for their demise.

 

[outerfix]

Agreed, I don't take anything personally, you shouldn't either. It's just business.

 

[Club ORD FO]

So, is the the Flight options union going to fight the Flex as a separate company thing and try to merge the two?

 

[Praetorian]

Yes, but the law of the land is different depending on wether or not CS decertifiys the Teamsters. If we remain Teamsters we would get the shaft in a merger with Options. If we decertify, not so much.

I think, since much of this was discussed on the unions call last night and is now in the public domain, I'll try to get you straightened out.

The FO CBA says the following about how the lists will be integrated if FO acquires an unrepresented group: "...if the Pilots of the acquired airline are not represented by the IBT, then pursuant to Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions."

Remember, if the CA pilots decertify the FO pilots will still be represented by the IBT and their contract would govern how the seniority list is integrated. Given that Allegheny-Mohawk stipulates a fair and equitable seniority list integration and since courts and arbitrators have considered a date of hire seniority list integration fair and equitable in the past, there would be no grounds for a challenge under M.B. This is because the CBA effectively mirrors M.B.

If this merger happens you will be merged by date of hire regardless of if you decertify or not, unless of course the company decides to play games with you. If that happens, decertifying would be problematic for you, because you would have no representative to defend you.



But don't take my word for it, you really should call one of your CA MEC guys and ask them about this.

 

[outerfix]

Praetorian, you flat out wrong. An Arbitrator would decide what is fair and equitable in the event that CS decertifies. It's spelled out in black and white in the McCaskill-Bond statue. The Teamsters would argue for DOH but there is no way an arbitrator is going to place over 80 percent of the CS pilots on the bottom 20 percent of the seniority list, period.


Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either part for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Allegheny-Mohawk, 59 C.A.B. at 45.

Section 13 mandated arbitration of disputes with employees that arose in this process or under any of the other provisions of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.2 Section 13 provides:

In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees.

 

[JokerFuel]

Insert...horse before the cart here. This is a wait and see game. Cooler heads will prevail. Three common analogies in that one!

 

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, you flat out wrong. An Arbitrator would decide what is fair and equitable in the event that CS decertifies. It's spelled out in black and white in the McCaskill-Bond statue. The Teamsters would argue for DOH but there is no way an arbitrator is going to place over 80 percent of the CS pilots on the bottom 20 percent of the seniority list, period.


Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either part for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Allegheny-Mohawk, 59 C.A.B. at 45.

Section 13 mandated arbitration of disputes with employees that arose in this process or under any of the other provisions of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.2 Section 13 provides:

In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees.

Again, I hope you will reach out to your MEC guys. After all they would be personally effected by all of this and I suspect they have spoken to attorneys.

Right now you are misinterpreting what the statute says and misunderstanding how it would be applied. And no, I'm not helping you with it anymore on here.

 

[Propilot77]

Insert...horse before the cart here. This is a wait and see game. Cooler heads will prevail. Three common analogies in that one!

Always a man of wisdom! Great to hear from you again, "Eh"!

 

[Cavpilot]

Praetorian, you flat out wrong. An Arbitrator would decide what is fair and equitable in the event that CS decertifies. It's spelled out in black and white in the McCaskill-Bond statue. The Teamsters would argue for DOH but there is no way an arbitrator is going to place over 80 percent of the CS pilots on the bottom 20 percent of the seniority list, period.


Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either part for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Allegheny-Mohawk, 59 C.A.B. at 45.

Section 13 mandated arbitration of disputes with employees that arose in this process or under any of the other provisions of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.2 Section 13 provides:

In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees.

You have left out one of the key factors an arbitrator would use to determine a seniority list integration, that is career expectation. Based on the path that CS/CA has been on for the last few years, I think that it's safe to say that an arbitrator would weigh heavily toward the Flops pilot group.

Look, I'm a NetJets guy and don't have a horse in this race. However, I'm very interested to see the outcome of this issue. But then again, this supposed merger is still all hearsay, innuendo, rumor and gossip. One last thing; here is a down and dirty legal view of seniority list integration:


http://afaonevoice.org/images/McCaskill Amendment explanation FINAL for WEB.pdf

 

[outerfix]

"Career expectations" was the old ALPA merger policy and is one of many methods to determine a fair integration and usually does not include the health of the carrier. Do you think the American pilots should be stapled because they are in bankruptcy? And nobody knows how CS is doing as the books are sealed. I believe the Midwest/Republic integration is in arbitration now. It will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

Republic and the Teamsters argued that the transaction was not a merger. Instead of acquiring an air carrier, Republic had rather acquired some assets related to air transportation, they argued. Soon after the purchase, Republic returned Midwest's nine leased planes to Boeing and abandoned Midwest's flying certificate from federal regulators. Republic did, however, take over Midwest's air routes.

A district court ruled in favor of Republic and the Teamsters, concluding that the federal law was never meant to protect the employees of an air carrier that "simply goes out of business." But the 7th Circuit disagreed.

"One cannot remove bankrupt and soon-to-disappear carriers from the statute's coverage, as the Teamsters propose, without simultaneously circumventing the statutory text and frustrating the design behind it," Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote for the three-judge panel.

The court noted that the federal law requiring seniority integration itself grew out of American Airlines' acquisition of Trans World Airlines, which was bankrupt and on the brink of closing down.

Marianne Robbins, a lawyer for Republic and the Teamsters, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Republic and the Teamsters' Airline Division did not immediately return calls for comment.

Edward Gilmartin, general counsel for the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA and a lawyer for the Midwest flight attendants, said the 7th Circuit was the first appellate court to address the issue. The court "firmly established that once two carriers merge, there must be a fair and equitable seniority integration for the workers," he said.

 

[outerfix]

Insert...horse before the cart here. This is a wait and see game. Cooler heads will prevail. Three common analogies in that one!

I have some as well, It's complicated, you wouldn't understand. Run along and let the big boys conduct business. Don't worry, we have your best interests at heart.

 

[Praetorian]

Hey guys. Methinks this fella ^^^^^^ has shown his hand.

What do you think?

 

[outerfix]

What hand is that? I'm just beating the drum as loud as I can for a fair integration, if there is an integration.

 

[jetwash]

What hand is that? I'm just beating the drum as loud as I can for a fair integration, if there is an integration.

Why do I have a feeling that if there is an integration, no matter what happens you will be unhappy

Ask the guys from Avantair if they would want to be in your position and ask yourself if you would want to be in theirs.

 

[dime line]

What hand is that? I'm just beating the drum as loud as I can for a fair integration, if there is an integration.

ahhhhh the sky is falling.........STAPLE.........ahhhhh sht

Ps, I'm posting this on behalf of B19

 

[JokerFuel]

I have some as well, It's complicated, you wouldn't understand. Run along and let the big boys conduct business. Don't worry, we have your best interests at heart.

And there it is...all of it. It's conjecture until the "Leaders" have lead. Otherwise this is a waste of time and effort. Good luck to the little guy. Bottom line.....it's about the outside not the inside. House, wife (if you have one), and the kids. The rest is ********************e! Good luck to us all.

 

[outerfix]

Why do I have a feeling that if there is an integration, no matter what happens you will be unhappy

Ask the guys from Avantair if they would want to be in your position and ask yourself if you would want to be in theirs.

Thanks for caring about my happiness. I appreciate it.

That's like asking an innocent man if he would rather have ten years or the death penalty. If there is going to be an integration, I want it to be fair. If I am going to end up on the street, as aero boy seems to think, I'll deal with it. Do you think that someone who does this much research does not have a back up plan or two?

Praetorian, please stop with the cryptic innuendos, if you have something to say, say it.

Joker, engaging you would be like beating up Buddha. Peace out my brother.