Hold on tight

[fischman]

Begins??? Dude, that race was over in April 2010, at least among the Big 4 fracs. Have you seen the Options pay scales and scope clause? This is just Ricci's victory lap.

You aren't going to get an industry leader on your first CBA.

Yes. This is where it begins. Fracs should be an exclusive club. Not a thing to be sold in WalMart.

 

[chief9404]

I value my dignity more than this job, so my choice is to (possibly) die on my feet rather than live on my knees. Others' opinions may vary, and I respect their right to disagree.[/QUOTE]



I agree.

 

[jetwash]

Flight Options is not going anywhere. It will probably be one day be merged with Flex just to eliminate the dual overhead.

Flight Options is a cog in the big machine that he is creating. It is the main customer for his Nextant aircraft. With 40 on order he might as well shut it down as well. Let's not forget all the business and money that Flight Options is sending Constant aviation everyday. We are probably 80 percent of their business. Now throw in all the warranty work Constant does on the Phenoms, that's a nice stream of cash flow from Embraer every month.
Now let's go to Spinacur and Sentient who are taking advantage of someone elses cheap aircraft that Flight Options is providing at cut rate prices.

The biggest reason why Flight Options will be around is because it was his idea and he has a point to prove to the aviation community that a fractional airline using pre owned business jets was his great idea.

Throwing in his ego into the mix will ensure that he will keep growing his empire.

 

[doh]

Still looking for an answer to my earlier question. How do y'all, at Options, bid for vacation? And how is it constructed into your line?

 

[jetwash]

Still looking for an answer to my earlier question. How do y'all, at Options, bid for vacation? And how is it constructed into your line?

Missed the question earlier.

We first look at bid lines for our schedule then a few weeks after get your next 6 month schedule a bid comes out for vacations. You only bid the days off that you were scheduled to work. It is all done by seniority.

Most guys try to bid a schedule that had Christmas off. If they don't get it they then have a shot at bidding the Christmas week off and use up their vacation.
If you stil don't get it off you call in sick.

Schedule is bid every 6 months and then a vacation is bid every 6 months. But after you get your schedule.

The only problem is if you are low man in senority then you shafted on your vacation all the time. Your options are to bid to a small aircraft where there is less pay but you will be higher up on the senority for that aircraft so you will probably get your first choice of schedule and vacation.

If you are already on the small aircraft and have a poor senority number calling off sick is your only option to get the time you want off.

Hope that helps.

 

[doh]

That explains the process very well. But it helps NO ONE when your only option is calling off sick...:uzi:

 

[dash_trash]

7&7, Sal is right that we would be better off with no union in the event of a pilot merger but wrong that we would be on the street. In a covered transaction, that is a sale that involves 50 percent or more of the assets, the Mcckaskill-Bond act takes effect. The Mcckaskill-Bond act states that in the event of a pilot merger with dissimilar/ no union, the merger will be via Allegheny Mohawk which would probably net us relative Seniority. In the event of two pilot groups with the same union merging, that unions merger policy will take effect. Teamster merger policy is DOH with fences. We would be slotted in with FO's furloughed pilots but still get to keep our seat. We could never bid another airplane, we would work every holiday, we would get our last choice of vacation, our first officer's would never upgrade, etc. What happens if our fleet goes away or is replaced? We don't know but my guess is a bump and flush.

http://thepilotsurveyor.com/2012/05/27/what-is-the-mccaskill-bond-amendment/

Might want to check how that worked out for TWA pilots ... pretty sure it was more than 50% that AA bought

 

[chasmo]

McCaskill- Bond

Was signed into law in 2007 Long after the TWA American debacle.
In fact quite possibly it was a result of TWA - American integration.

 

[outerfix]

Thanks Chasmo, I feel like you and I are only ones who know how to use google search.

Missouri Senators Clare McCaskill and Christopher Bond, concerned about the seniority integration treatment of employees at Trans World Airlines ("TWA") following its purchase by American Airlines and integration of the two airlines' operations and workforce, introduced legislation to guarantee labor protective provisions to airline employees with respect to seniority integration for certain covered transactions.

 

[outerfix]

Hey Dash, I bet quite a few FO pilots are licking their chops at the thought of taking the CitationAir planes sans pilots but before they get too excited they should read this:

Nov 30 (Reuters) - Republic Airlines and the Teamsters union unlawfully deprived hundreds of Midwest Airlines flight attendants of their job seniority when the two airlines merged, a U.S. appeals court ruled on Wednesday.

The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals found that Republic failed to honor the Midwest flight attendants' seniority rights when it purchased the airline's parent company, Midwest Air Group, in 2009.

Federal law, specifically the McCaskill-Bond Amendment to the Federal Aviation Act, requires airlines to integrate employee seniority lists when two carriers merge.

The Midwest flight attendants sued Republic and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters in 2010 under McCaskill-Bond, accusing the airline and its union of forcing hundreds of Midwest flight attendants into prolonged unemployment.

While Republic integrated the seniority lists for Midwest mechanics, baggage handlers and administrative employees, the company furloughed the flight attendants, requiring them to apply for new jobs with Republic. If they were hired, they came on at the bottom of the seniority roster, according to the court opinion.

Republic and the Teamsters argued that the transaction was not a merger. Instead of acquiring an air carrier, Republic had rather acquired some assets related to air transportation, they argued. Soon after the purchase, Republic returned Midwest's nine leased planes to Boeing and abandoned Midwest's flying certificate from federal regulators. Republic did, however, take over Midwest's air routes.

A district court ruled in favor of Republic and the Teamsters, concluding that the federal law was never meant to protect the employees of an air carrier that "simply goes out of business." But the 7th Circuit disagreed.

"One cannot remove bankrupt and soon-to-disappear carriers from the statute's coverage, as the Teamsters propose, without simultaneously circumventing the statutory text and frustrating the design behind it," Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote for the three-judge panel.

The court noted that the federal law requiring seniority integration itself grew out of American Airlines' acquisition of Trans World Airlines, which was bankrupt and on the brink of closing down.

Marianne Robbins, a lawyer for Republic and the Teamsters, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Republic and the Teamsters' Airline Division did not immediately return calls for comment.

Edward Gilmartin, general counsel for the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA and a lawyer for the Midwest flight attendants, said the 7th Circuit was the first appellate court to address the issue. The court "firmly established that once two carriers merge, there must be a fair and equitable seniority integration for the workers," he said.

Most of the 400 Midwest flight attendants were furloughed without pay, Gilmartin said. Some, with decades of experience, took jobs at Republic as new hires.

 

[outerfix]

Dash, it's ironic that you should mention the American/TWA integration because while the methodology was different, A FO/CA integration under Teamster merger policy yield almost the same result as American/TWA. A few CA pilots scattered in at the bottom of the Capt. list and the rest slotted near the Bottom of the Seniority list.

 

[jetwash]

You all seem to be assuming that Flight Options is going to buy/ merge the two companies.

With the announcement that CS was getting out of the frac business I see FO as snooping around looking at what contracts they can take over. I would expect it of Netjets being able to buy Flex and CS at the same time but I don't think Ricci is that strong to do it.
Flight Options might buy a few airplanes and a few contracts but if they don't take the whole company is it considered a merger?

 

[Praetorian]

I think it's interesting that this deal hasn't even been done and the pilot groups are already being played against one another.

Make no mistake, its happening for a reason. If we let them do this to us we will all suffer. It's a very simple equation. The union is out to protect the pilots. The company is out to make money off the pilots.

Anything else you think you know is a distraction from those facts.

 

[doh]

Since DAC has a charter operation, do they use them exclusively for charter selloff during peak demand periods? That would seem to me to be an immediate efficiency they can realize by buying us.

 

[jetwash]

Since DAC has a charter operation, do they use them exclusively for charter selloff during peak demand periods? That would seem to me to be an immediate efficiency they can realize by buying us.

I think it is only a broker and aircraft management company. I don't think they have their own aircraft or pilots. Flight Options has been doing lots of flights for Setient since our aircraft are cheaper then outside vendors. Only when we can't do it is it then sent to a charter operation.

 

[outerfix]

Jetwash, I think the bar was set pretty low and a precedent was set with Midwest/ Republic. There was NO transfer of certificate or any planes. I would assume that the attorneys working on a sale of an airline would be aware of McCaskil-Bond and the Midwest verdict but I am constantly amazed at how little "experts" know. I would not surprise me to see a deal with no pilot transfers followed by a lawsuit and then a pilot integration.

Praetorian, I don't think anyone is being pitted against anyone. We Know SOMETHING is going to happen and we are formulating a strategy for possible outcomes. As i have said before I'm not opposed to the Teamsters, I'm opposed to what Teamster merger policy would do to the CS pilot group in the event of a merger with Flight Options.

I consider decertifying the Teamsters the Nuclear option. I would much prefer for the Teamsters to review their merger policy and make changes. My second choice would be to oppose single carrier. I think the case for single carrier is strong and I don't think The Teamsters have any inclination to review anything so we are left with two guys with two keys in a bunker.

 

[NJAowner]

Pilot vs Pilot vs Pilot

I think it's interesting that this deal hasn't even been done and the pilot groups are already being played against one another.

Just as an observer here, and using the "facts" ("facts" -- defined very liberally) here on flightinfo, it does not look like anyone is "playing [the pilots] against one another", as it does not appear that the new company has done anything with regard to the pilots. It appears to be just pilots trying to guess what the future could be and playing off against each other.

 

[jetwash]

Jetwash, I think the bar was set pretty low and a precedent was set with Midwest/ Republic. There was NO transfer of certificate or any planes. I would assume that the attorneys working on a sale of an airline would be aware of McCaskil-Bond and the Midwest verdict but I am constantly amazed at how little "experts" know. I would not surprise me to see a deal with no pilot transfers followed by a lawsuit and then a pilot integration.
.

First of all I would welcome a merger or Flex, CS and FO. I think that it will be good in the long run for all the frac pilots no matter what company you come from.

My question was how would it be handled if FO only wanted one type of aircraft.

Who in CS would go? Would it be the pilots already flying that aircrAft or would it go by seniority? Would the low seniority go or the high senority?
I know this is a hypothetical question but this whole discussion is hypothetical until some sort of announcement is made.

 

[Praetorian]

Just as an observer here, and using the "facts" ("facts" -- defined very liberally) here on flightinfo, it does not look like anyone is "playing [the pilots] against one another", as it does not appear that the new company has done anything with regard to the pilots. It appears to be just pilots trying to guess what the future could be and playing off against each other.

There is a deeper game. Who do think is feeding some of these guys all the misinformation about M.B.?

 

[outerfix]

Pratorian, no one is feeding me anything. I was completely on board with the Teamsters until a couple of months ago when an fo i was flying with said we were going to be pieced out. I started doing independent research and my jaw just about hit the ground when I saw where we would end up if we were merged with Options. Neither fair nor equitable. Can you factually dispute anything I have said?

Jetwash, we have "heard" that Cessna is going to pay an unbelievable sum to off us and that it's for the whole enchilada. My understanding of the contracts is that Cessna can't just assign someone else to manage the owners planes. Each and every contract would have to be opened up and re-written. Maybe NJA owner can chime in. My opinion is that the entity CitationAir would need to be around to service the contracts and the entire seniority list would transfer with that entity.