Hawaiian Adding A321 Neos? Didn't See That One Coming...

[ackattacker]

Interesting enough, turns out that is exactly the difference with the NEO. The question was asked at the meeting I just went too about when the airplane would be available. The answer was they only are changing the wing and the engines so they didn't expect any delays. You get an A in aerodynamics!

I think cbrown was implying they need to put a *bigger* wing on it. AFAIK the only significant change the A321neo brings aerodynamically is the addition of "sharklets".

I have seen range projections from 3,450nm to 3,650nm for the A321neo. It is enough to reach the West Coast which is obviously what they are going for.

EDIT: just read n757st 's comment and while he estimates 3100nm realistic for the neo, that's still more than enough. HNL-LAX is 2221nm direct distance and HNL-SFO is only 2084nm. Seattle is 2326nm.

 

[blade230]

whats up with HA's stock today?

Good question!!

 

[BentOver]

Whatever the numbers may or may not be.. I'm sure someone at Hawaiian has looked at them, conferred with Airbus, and decided it was atleast doable... I doubt they agreed to buy the a/c without doing one bit of research on the stage length in mind

The deliveries would still be a few years down the road, hopefully it all pans out.

 

[Dan Roman]

Whatever the numbers may or may not be.. I'm sure someone at Hawaiian has looked at them, conferred with Airbus, and decided it was atleast doable... I doubt they agreed to buy the a/c without doing one bit of research on the stage length in mind

The deliveries would still be a few years down the road, hopefully it all pans out.

I went to the briefing and they had all the numbers and they worked fine for anything we would use it for. Full load out of OGG and LIH. It was discussed in detail and in fact we have it guaranteed in the deal. If it didn't perform as advertised we get a full refund. They had the numbers for the the Boeings from Boeing. The 737 900 can only carry an 84% load factor out of OGG and about 72% out of LIH. In other words the 737 900 ER is not a viable airplane for Hawaii. 800 works 900 doesn't.

 

[Dan Roman]

Good question!!

+1 The Airbus deal according to all the analysts seems to be getting two thumbs up. We just reported 10% increase in traffic.
It could be profit taking as it traded very heavy after a run up.

If you like conspiracy theories, I read somewhere that Merril Lynch posted a downgrade. The way they did it smells of stock manipulation. Who knows. The company is doing very well, nothing has changed except a solid plan for profitable growth has been introduced.

 

[Metrojet]

I went to the briefing and they had all the numbers and they worked fine for anything we would use it for. Full load out of OGG and LIH. It was discussed in detail and in fact we have it guaranteed in the deal. If it didn't perform as advertised we get a full refund. They had the numbers for the the Boeings from Boeing. The 737 900 can only carry an 84% load factor out of OGG and about 72% out of LIH. In other words the 737 900 ER is not a viable airplane for Hawaii. 800 works 900 doesn't.

Hey Dan
Could you post those numbers on the 321neo - the standard 321-200 is very under powered at hot temps and high gw.

Metrojet

 

[igneousy2]

I went to the briefing and they had all the numbers and they worked fine for anything we would use it for. Full load out of OGG and LIH. It was discussed in detail and in fact we have it guaranteed in the deal. If it didn't perform as advertised we get a full refund. They had the numbers for the the Boeings from Boeing. The 737 900 can only carry an 84% load factor out of OGG and about 72% out of LIH. In other words the 737 900 ER is not a viable airplane for Hawaii. 800 works 900 doesn't.

Just to clarify, are you speaking of the 737NG's or the MAX's. I know the 900 NG's definetly won't work for all the Hawaii markets, I was wondering if an analysis was done on the MAX's. I don't know if it even makes a difference at all.

 

[Dan Roman]

Just to clarify, are you speaking of the 737NG's or the MAX's. I know the 900 NG's definetly won't work for all the Hawaii markets, I was wondering if an analysis was done on the MAX's. I don't know if it even makes a difference at all.

It was for the Max. The numbers are from what Boeing presented to us.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan
Could you post those numbers on the 321neo - the standard 321-200 is very under powered at hot temps and high gw.

Metrojet

Sorry, it was a slide show so I can't give you the exact figures. But it out performed the 737 900 max pretty easily. It sounds like the new motors and wing change should address that.

 

[dash8driver]

Sorry, it was a slide show so I can't give you the exact figures. But it out performed the 737 900 max pretty easily. It sounds like the new motors and wing change should address that.

Dan,

From what I understand the planes presented were 737-700, -800, and -900. The -900 is not the 737Max. The Max family are numbered 737-7, 737-8 and 737-9. Was there some mix up in the presentation?

 

[BentOver]

I went to the briefing and they had all the numbers and they worked fine for anything we would use it for. Full load out of OGG and LIH. It was discussed in detail and in fact we have it guaranteed in the deal. If it didn't perform as advertised we get a full refund. They had the numbers for the the Boeings from Boeing. The 737 900 can only carry an 84% load factor out of OGG and about 72% out of LIH. In other words the 737 900 ER is not a viable airplane for Hawaii. 800 works 900 doesn't.

Hey Dan,

I wish I would have had a chance to go. Couldn't make it... I am amazed at all the aerospace engineers on this board who know the exact specs of an a/c that hasn't been put out yet...And then those same people assuming that Hawaiian would NOT do any research to make sure it would be able to go across the Pacific (maybe they don't realize that's pretty much all Hawaian does is cross the Pacific?)

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan,

From what I understand the planes presented were 737-700, -800, and -900. The -900 is not the 737Max. The Max family are numbered 737-7, 737-8 and 737-9. Was there some mix up in the presentation?

Actually I'm just recalling from the slide show, I don't know a whole lot about the different models. I was just surprised to see that the 900 proposed to us wouldn't work for Hawaii. I assumed they were talking the Max. I know Boeing was trying to sell us the Max. To be honest, I didn't pay all that much attention to the Boeing part of the discussion as obviously it doesn't effect us. Safe to the NEO looks like a good plane for the market.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan,

I wish I would have had a chance to go. Couldn't make it... I am amazed at all the aerospace engineers on this board who know the exact specs of an a/c that hasn't been put out yet...And then those same people assuming that Hawaiian would NOT do any research to make sure it would be able to go across the Pacific (maybe they don't realize that's pretty much all Hawaian does is cross the Pacific?)

I'm sure you'll hear all the info. Good presentation, looks good for us and it's been well thought out by the company. The union seems on top of the deal. You may appreciate the part were we plan on a 1000 pilots by 2020 with the acquisition of these airplanes. They will be used for TransPac and a few mid day Inter-island flights were even today we can't accommodate the demand with our current 717 flights.

 

[lanilila]

Heard a rumor about Hawaiian looking at using 717 on the west coast to connect their passengers on the mainland to other cities? Sounds far fetched but anyone heard this?

 

[Flyby1206]

Heard a rumor about Hawaiian looking at using 717 on the west coast to connect their passengers on the mainland to other cities? Sounds far fetched but anyone heard this?

Better chance of those 717s winding up at DAL than having HA hub them in LAX/SFO or somewhere.

The west coast short haul market is saturated and fractured among many carriers. Ugly situation. HA has plenty of partner airlines that provide great feed (UA, US, DL, AA, B6, VX)

 

[Dan Roman]

Flyby is correct. No one here is saying that that I know of. It's a typical rumor that would get started when people hear we are getting small bus's and than it morphs into A320's inter-island. They are firmly committed to the 717 inter-island till at least 2020.

 

[bri5150]

Heard a rumor about Hawaiian looking at using 717 on the west coast to connect their passengers on the mainland to other cities? Sounds far fetched but anyone heard this?

Codeshare, possibly more with Virgin America.

 

[Dan Roman]

Flyby is correct. No one here is saying that that I know of. It's a typical rumor that would get started when people hear we are getting small bus's and than it morphs into A320's inter-island. They are firmly committed to the 717 inter-island till at least 2020.

and before anyone says it, yes we did negotiate inter island rates for the A/C, but it was made clear that is for flying them to supplement the 717 fleet, not replace them.

 

[msmb]

What about the 900er with the 27k bump engines? In/out of ogg and lih?

 

[igneousy2]

What about the 900er with the 27k bump engines? In/out of ogg and lih?

The 800 and the 900 ER both can take about the same weight out of both LIH and OGG since you are runway limited...about 165-170K LBS.

On the 900ER, more of this weight is in the longer airframe so your actual possible load is less. This makes flights to the west coast less efficient with a 900ER as compared to an 800 except on the days where the winds aloft are exceptionally strong, lessening the fuel requirement, and therefore, letting you take advantage of some of the 24 extra seats. You can usually take a full boat out on the 800. You will always restrict seats on the 900ER.

The MAX/9 has a 28K engine option. Since it's a bigger engine pushing the same wing, I would imagine you can take some additional weight out of LIH/OGG as compared to the 800/900. Couple that with the fact that the fuel required should decrease by 10% if Boeing hits their numbers, which would be about 4K LBS, then maybe the /9 becomes more viable for LIH/OGG-Bay Area. Even if you have to restrict 15 seats on a MAX/9 that is still 9 more seats than an 800.