hawkerflyer
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seven,
please explain to me how the ca flew for 3000 hours plus at colgan and they never saw the lack of compentancy or pilot skill level. how the hell can you blame GIA for not training the ca when colgan had him at the airline for such a long time without recognizing it. you make no sense at all and you talk about stats. 3 accidents and they were not the only crewmembers. it takes two people to fly the plane. Comair wow i quess it was the FO fault, because he survived. You want to put all this blame on the captain then you cant even talk about the comair crash because the fo was from GIA not the captain
please explain to me how the ca flew for 3000 hours plus at colgan and they never saw the lack of compentancy or pilot skill level. how the hell can you blame GIA for not training the ca when colgan had him at the airline for such a long time without recognizing it. you make no sense at all and you talk about stats. 3 accidents and they were not the only crewmembers. it takes two people to fly the plane. Comair wow i quess it was the FO fault, because he survived. You want to put all this blame on the captain then you cant even talk about the comair crash because the fo was from GIA not the captain
FastJP4
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Since I don't fly for a regional - I tend to not get into regional topics. But the Colgan crash and the first post of this thread sparked some interest. I don't agree with PFT, and the concept of a captain instructing basic airmanship while flying Part 121 ops would be insane. That being said, I don't buy into the "blame game" that everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon regarding these accidents. Here is what the facts I've looked at seem to state - and correct me if any of them are wrong:
On the Colgan crash, you had a CA that went through GIA over 3,000 hours ago and an FO that had 1,600 hours of instruction under her belt that "saw more actual on her first day of IOE than all her hours of instructing". Clearly the CA was so far removed from GIA, had been through Colgan training event on 3 different a/c, and had goodness knows many, many checkrides through Colgan. I fail to see what GIA had to do with any of that. The FO was a 1,600 hr instructor - that kind of goes against the whole instructor vs. not being an instructor game - and clearly shows that at least in some cases - giving instruction isn't the beat all end all to becoming a professional pilot.
Looking for and reviewing any GIA accidents/incidents: I could find a couple of gear related incidents (appeared to be mx issues from what I read) but could not find anything regarding someone being killed on this airline. In fact, on the couple of incidents and from pax remarks - it appears the pilot was actually very skillful in dealing with these incidents.
FWIW - I think it's fair to bang away at the PFT aspect, but I don't think it's accurate to say GIA had anything to do with these accidents. GIA has not augered a plane into the ground, and they've been flying a/c for a long time. It appears there are alot of GIA people in the majors, and I couldn't find where any GIA people have been involved with any accidents/incidents at that level.
On the Colgan crash, you had a CA that went through GIA over 3,000 hours ago and an FO that had 1,600 hours of instruction under her belt that "saw more actual on her first day of IOE than all her hours of instructing". Clearly the CA was so far removed from GIA, had been through Colgan training event on 3 different a/c, and had goodness knows many, many checkrides through Colgan. I fail to see what GIA had to do with any of that. The FO was a 1,600 hr instructor - that kind of goes against the whole instructor vs. not being an instructor game - and clearly shows that at least in some cases - giving instruction isn't the beat all end all to becoming a professional pilot.
Looking for and reviewing any GIA accidents/incidents: I could find a couple of gear related incidents (appeared to be mx issues from what I read) but could not find anything regarding someone being killed on this airline. In fact, on the couple of incidents and from pax remarks - it appears the pilot was actually very skillful in dealing with these incidents.
FWIW - I think it's fair to bang away at the PFT aspect, but I don't think it's accurate to say GIA had anything to do with these accidents. GIA has not augered a plane into the ground, and they've been flying a/c for a long time. It appears there are alot of GIA people in the majors, and I couldn't find where any GIA people have been involved with any accidents/incidents at that level.
SEVEN
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Why don't you explain to me why the company you work for is scamming people left and right. Paying to sit right seat in a 121 operation. Are you kidding me. How do you look at yourself in the mirror everyday. You know GIA is a joke just as much as everyone else. You just won't admit it because you've been drinking the company propaganda koolaid too long. You are another "lost soul." I feel bad for you. You know it and I know it: Gulfstream is a bad, bad place.
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
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- Dec 16, 2001
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- 3,643
and here is the worse part...
The paying Continental passengers in the back, have NO IDEA their FO is a student, paying for his time.. none. How did the FAA buy off on this??
Minimaniac
Benevolent Dictator
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
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- 455
Why do I put blame at the feet of GIA?
GIA trains a wide range of pilots, just like any flight school. Some are great, some are good, and some ought to go home. The problem is that GIA doesn't send home as many pilots as it should. I knew over a dozen people personally at ERAU that dropped out of the flying portion because they just didn't have what it took. It's nothing to be ashamed of...I sure couldn't play basketball for a living! In the professional world, I have flown with a bunch of GIA grads. no doubt, there were some great guys. Motivated people will almost always suceed. There were some average ones as well, ones who could go through the motions but still needed time to put it all together. That's fine. not my ideal FO, but every flight school will pass the mediocre pilot. I can live with that. But, out of the ten worst pilots I have ever flown with, 7 of them were from GIA. GIA just doesn't do enough to weed out the struggling pilots. The proof is out there, and on the news, unfortunately. I am not saying that the big schools, the military, the mom and pop FBOs, and the cargo fliers haven't donated their share of problem pilots to the industry, but the recent trend of involvement of GIA pilots in the cockpit of fatal crashes should point to an underlying problem.
As it was said before, law of primacy. The Colgan pilot did not handle a wing stall in a straight wing aircraft properly, and did not notice airspeed decay. The Pinnacle crew did not respect the operating envelop of their aircraft, and again did not notice airspeed decay. On top of that, they showed horrendous decision making skills once in the emergency. I haven't verified if any of the Comair crew went to GIA, but runway heading is a basic item. In all of these cases, the fundementals of flying all showed weakness. Airspeed. Runway Heading. Stall recovery.
I have seen pilots fail 121 checkrides. I haven't yet, but I fully expect to at some point. It happens. However, the failures I have seen have been on focused standards, such as a pilot losing 200 feet on a stall recovery, or getting more than 10 knots off airspeed. But 150 kts at 410? Idle power during approach configuration at level flight to the point of a stall? These show an absolute ignorance of instrument flying skills and scanning. Sorry to say it. I must be a jerk.
GIA trains a wide range of pilots, just like any flight school. Some are great, some are good, and some ought to go home. The problem is that GIA doesn't send home as many pilots as it should. I knew over a dozen people personally at ERAU that dropped out of the flying portion because they just didn't have what it took. It's nothing to be ashamed of...I sure couldn't play basketball for a living! In the professional world, I have flown with a bunch of GIA grads. no doubt, there were some great guys. Motivated people will almost always suceed. There were some average ones as well, ones who could go through the motions but still needed time to put it all together. That's fine. not my ideal FO, but every flight school will pass the mediocre pilot. I can live with that. But, out of the ten worst pilots I have ever flown with, 7 of them were from GIA. GIA just doesn't do enough to weed out the struggling pilots. The proof is out there, and on the news, unfortunately. I am not saying that the big schools, the military, the mom and pop FBOs, and the cargo fliers haven't donated their share of problem pilots to the industry, but the recent trend of involvement of GIA pilots in the cockpit of fatal crashes should point to an underlying problem.
As it was said before, law of primacy. The Colgan pilot did not handle a wing stall in a straight wing aircraft properly, and did not notice airspeed decay. The Pinnacle crew did not respect the operating envelop of their aircraft, and again did not notice airspeed decay. On top of that, they showed horrendous decision making skills once in the emergency. I haven't verified if any of the Comair crew went to GIA, but runway heading is a basic item. In all of these cases, the fundementals of flying all showed weakness. Airspeed. Runway Heading. Stall recovery.
I have seen pilots fail 121 checkrides. I haven't yet, but I fully expect to at some point. It happens. However, the failures I have seen have been on focused standards, such as a pilot losing 200 feet on a stall recovery, or getting more than 10 knots off airspeed. But 150 kts at 410? Idle power during approach configuration at level flight to the point of a stall? These show an absolute ignorance of instrument flying skills and scanning. Sorry to say it. I must be a jerk.
fastjp4
you are absolutely correct. if anyone wants to argue about pft that is fine, it has been done here before. but do not say that people lost their lives in these accidents because the pilots went to GIA. The crews members were so far removed from GIA that the connections to GIA are unvalidated. If we are going to make that connection then I should lose all my certificates because of the following
Comair - First officer was my instructor at GIA
Pinnacle - I flew with the captain and I instructed the FO
private ground, inst ground, comm. ground school
Colgan - I instructed the CA in OM-1 class (others call it FOM, FLOP,
regs... etc)
Continental - The CA on the flight in Denver, I played golf with him last
Thursday in Houston
So it looks like i am the one that caused all these accidents?
you are absolutely correct. if anyone wants to argue about pft that is fine, it has been done here before. but do not say that people lost their lives in these accidents because the pilots went to GIA. The crews members were so far removed from GIA that the connections to GIA are unvalidated. If we are going to make that connection then I should lose all my certificates because of the following
Comair - First officer was my instructor at GIA
Pinnacle - I flew with the captain and I instructed the FO
private ground, inst ground, comm. ground school
Colgan - I instructed the CA in OM-1 class (others call it FOM, FLOP,
regs... etc)
Continental - The CA on the flight in Denver, I played golf with him last
Thursday in Houston
So it looks like i am the one that caused all these accidents?
Minimaniac
Benevolent Dictator
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Posts
- 455
Well, I wouldn't say you caused them all (unless you nailed the CAL captain with a bad drive), but those who you instructed in an aircraft...
I had a former student of mine get violated. I signed him off. I thought he understood what I had taught him, but in my eyes I did not do enough. There were warning signs... At the time, I was just trying to get him to the minimum standard in that one area.
I had a former student of mine get violated. I signed him off. I thought he understood what I had taught him, but in my eyes I did not do enough. There were warning signs... At the time, I was just trying to get him to the minimum standard in that one area.
Minimanic,
You are absolutely correct there are some good and some sub-par pilots. do some sub-par pilots make it through all training departments, sure. Does GIA need to do a better job of weeding out the weak, yes i totally agree with this. In the past times we did a good job of it, when we got new mgmt it became about the money and not the quality, they are the same ones that opened then closed Jet U. We are working at returning to keeping a high standard. I was given allot of heat from mgmt about trying to remove pilots from the program that didn't belong. I got out of the instructing because i didn't play the games, but the mgmt we have now is very good and i look forward to returning to the training department soon.
You are absolutely correct there are some good and some sub-par pilots. do some sub-par pilots make it through all training departments, sure. Does GIA need to do a better job of weeding out the weak, yes i totally agree with this. In the past times we did a good job of it, when we got new mgmt it became about the money and not the quality, they are the same ones that opened then closed Jet U. We are working at returning to keeping a high standard. I was given allot of heat from mgmt about trying to remove pilots from the program that didn't belong. I got out of the instructing because i didn't play the games, but the mgmt we have now is very good and i look forward to returning to the training department soon.
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