Gulfstream Academy track record

[PeanuckleCRJ]

FedEx has had about 5 accidents in six years (confirmation needed)...

What is the common thread there?

Look hard enough to find it....

FedEx has their own cultural issues to work out.

 

[HA25]

Look you can dress up the turd to your hearts content and size of the aircraft has absolutely nothing with I have said. What I meant by "flying an airbus" is that you flew it for regional pay. As a result you had a part in lowering the bar ! 85K CA pay to fly an airbus is deplorable.

Can't you see that?

no, I can't... what's the 1st year CA pay at most airlines? .... I thought so..

I'm exiting this hold.. OUT!

 

[PCL_128]

Why don't we look at this fact?

Pinnacle 3701 (Pinnacle)
Colgan 3407 (Owned by Pinnacle)

Finally, someone who gets it! The problem here is really Pinnacle's horrible corporate culture and abysmal training environment. Flight 3701 brought the training deficiencies to light and made it clear that Pinnacle management cares more about profits than safety, but because no passengers were lost, it didn't get enough attention to really force the government to put pressure on Pinnacle to fix the situation. The silver lining in the Colgan accident is that it might finally get the feds to do something about Pinnacle's woefully irresponsible management team.

As for GIA, you guys have a really difficult case to build against GIA as far as safety goes when GIA has an unblemished safety record after nearly 20 years of business. Yes, the PFT angle is easy to attack from a professional stand point, but the safety argument just doesn't hold water. FedEx has a hull loss once a year, yet GIA has never had one. The safety argument is a losing battle here.

 

[glasspilot]

Again (posted on another tread)

...TWA was a low cost carrier of its time...

Yeah...you may have had a great post but I had to stop right there. TWA was not "a low cost carrier of its time." They flew Ford Tri-Motors along with UAL, picking up mail routes and breaking ground flying passengers. They, along with UAL and Pan-Am gave birth to the airlines. They provided military airlift during WWII and did many joint ventures with the government to help make aviation what it is today.

We even owe static wicks to TWA!

 

[CX880]

Finally, someone who gets it! The problem here is really Pinnacle's horrible corporate culture and abysmal training environment. Flight 3701 brought the training deficiencies to light and made it clear that Pinnacle management cares more about profits than safety, but because no passengers were lost, it didn't get enough attention to really force the government to put pressure on Pinnacle to fix the situation. The silver lining in the Colgan accident is that it might finally get the feds to do something about Pinnacle's woefully irresponsible management team.

As for GIA, you guys have a really difficult case to build against GIA as far as safety goes when GIA has an unblemished safety record after nearly 20 years of business. Yes, the PFT angle is easy to attack from a professional stand point, but the safety argument just doesn't hold water. FedEx has a hull loss once a year, yet GIA has never had one. The safety argument is a losing battle here.

You are paying to sit right seat on an airliner at an airline that was founded and endorsed by former scabs. It's much easier to buy something then to earn it by passing real checkrides, imagine that. Apparently 1900 training for the buffalo CA was different at colgan vs GIA. Enough for him to fail the inital SHOCKING! Bigsky,Airmidwest,Greatlakes,commutair,colgan 1900 seats were free of charge. It's mostly about the type of individuals that GIA attracts, never mind the 3 fatal airline accidents by former gia pilots. Based on what I have personally seen so far in my career I wouldn't let my dog, if I had one, fly on any airplane operated by a GIA pilot.


Oh by the way it's very easy not to have hull loses when you slap the right seat observers if they try to touch anything. That nice pretty VFR weather over southern florida helps as well. By the way do you guys still use car parts for maintenance?

 

[Poahi]

It's much Based on what I have personally seen so far in my career I wouldn't let my dog, if I had one, fly on any airplane operated by a GIA pilot.

That rules out Southwest, Continental, United, FedEx, UPS etc.... Your dog would pretty much have to travel by train, if you had one.

 

[Hikoushi]

I've nonrevved on GS a bunch of times to Key West, etc. Never felt uncomfortable at all. While I don't care for the concept of PFT in principle, having worked through the traditional CFI / 135 route myself and not willing to trade that experience for anything fast money can buy, I have since flown with a number of folks from PFT outfits, and find the percentage of good to out-to-lunch pilots from that background to be about the same as everyone else.

While it's true that a certain "easy route" mentality is attracted to PFT, those types do not comprise the entire pilot group of GS or anywhere else like it. Sometimes it's just a matter of what type of influence or opportunity is in front of you at the time you choose to go for it. While PFT may be a factor in the degradation of pilot wages, it is not at blame for this tragedy.

 

[Kalifornia]

The only credit GIA deserves is they were smart enough to keep their lowest common denominator operation confined to a very small region (ensures constant familiarity) with arguably the most forgiving aircraft in the airline industry (1900). Unlike Colgan and Mesa which are flying around major airline size airplanes in complex networks while compromising safety with hideous treatment of their pilots and bringing the whole profession down.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Based on what I have personally seen so far in my career I wouldn't let my dog, if I had one, fly on any airplane operated by a GIA pilot.

Looking at your profile it would be safe to say you either have been a passenger on a regional or a major airline. GIA probably has hundreds if not a thousand graduates in the major/regional/corporate system. The chances that you have ALREADY flown on a former GIA pilot operated flight is VERY HIGH. It seems like the flight went just fine considering you are on this forum bashing a whole airline and pilot group. As far as your dog is concerned GIA transports over 1 million passengers a year without an accident I think your dog would be just as safe as those passengers. A few weeks ago GIA went through a full inspection from the FAA and they passed maybe you should forward your concerns to the FEDS because you obviously believe you know something that they don't.

 

[Kalifornia]

Looking at your profile it would be safe to say you either have been a passenger on a regional or a major airline. GIA probably has hundreds if not a thousand graduates in the major/regional/corporate system. The chances that you have ALREADY flown on a former GIA pilot operated flight is VERY HIGH. It seems like the flight went just fine considering you on this forum bashing a whole airline and pilot group. As far as your dog is concerned GIA transports over 1 million passengers a year without an accident I think your dog would be just as safe as those passengers. A few weeks ago GIA went through a full inspection from the FAA and they passed maybe you should forward your concerns to the FEDS because you obviously believe you know something that they don't.

You're kidding, right? While the NTSB does a good job as a federal agency, the FAA is very hit and miss and like I just stated, because GIA stays in a very confined bubble, that helps make it passable. And while there are competent people who come from GIA, it seems to be an operation that guarantees the less competent willing to shell out the money to make it through as evidenced by the accident connection between grads of the program and the latest flurry of accidents. In my personal experience flying with GIA people and in speaking with others, they are more hit and miss than any other background.

 

[B190Captain]

You're kidding, right? While the NTSB does a good job as a federal agency, the FAA is very hit and miss and like I just stated, because GIA stays in a very confined bubble, that helps make it passable. And while there are competent people who come from GIA, it seems to be an operation that guarantees the less competent willing to shell out the money to make it through as evidenced by the accident connection between grads of the program and the latest flurry of accidents. In my personal experience flying with GIA people and in speaking with others, they are more hit and miss than any other background.

Wow now the feds are incompetent? You should just drive your imaginary mutt around because in the air he's screwed. What's the matter? Did you wash out?

It does not guarantee the less competent anything. Are you that f*ckin ignorant or just plain stupid? They fly their 250 and if they suck they are out.

Blame the other carrier for picking them up just because they need a meat sack in the seat to fill for their attrition. It is they who dropped the ball. I was a check airman there for 3 years and my conscience is clear. Every training record I have signed off has a name of an individual that was competent to occupy that seat and became a permanent UNION card carrying first officer.

Even some of the rejects that I had to send back for remedial training were former Riddle Instructors!

You will find a former GIA pilot whether PFT or no PFT in EVERY MAJOR AIRLINE IN THIS COUNTRY. UPS AND FEDEX TOO. So get a bus ticket for your stupid imaginary mutt and STFU.

Oh and by the way - To this day.

0 fatalities.

 

[WayBack]

Oh and by the way - To this day.

0 fatalities.

Because you don't fly anything fast enough to kill you.

 

[HA25]

FedEx has had about 5 accidents in six years (confirmation needed)...

What is the common thread there?

Look hard enough to find it....

Curious if anyone knows how many daily flights are operated by both? But more to the point, the problem at Fedex is a culture (safety culture) issue imho. One where getting it there tends to have a bit more weight than it aught in the safety equation.

 

[ohplease!]

I see that Gulfstream is furloughing..... that raises and interesting question....

If you bought your job to start with and you get furloughed, do they give you all your money back or do they pro-rate it?

 

[Kalifornia]

Wow now the feds are incompetent? You should just drive your imaginary mutt around because in the air he's screwed. What's the matter? Did you wash out?

It does not guarantee the less competent anything. Are you that f*ckin ignorant or just plain stupid? They fly their 250 and if they suck they are out.

Blame the other carrier for picking them up just because they need a meat sack in the seat to fill for their attrition. It is they who dropped the ball. I was a check airman there for 3 years and my conscience is clear. Every training record I have signed off has a name of an individual that was competent to occupy that seat and became a permanent UNION card carrying first officer.

Even some of the rejects that I had to send back for remedial training were former Riddle Instructors!

You will find a former GIA pilot whether PFT or no PFT in EVERY MAJOR AIRLINE IN THIS COUNTRY. UPS AND FEDEX TOO. So get a bus ticket for your stupid imaginary mutt and STFU.

Oh and by the way - To this day.

0 fatalities.

Your highly emotional semi-coherent rant does not help in your defense of GIA. The less people willing to go there, the better this profession becomes.

 

[WayBack]

I see that Gulfstream is furloughing..... that raises and interesting question....

If you bought your job to start with and you get furloughed, do they give you all your money back or do they pro-rate it?

So since they're furloughing, is it just a single pilot operation now?

 

[B190Captain]

Your highly emotional semi-coherent rant does not help in your defense of GIA. The less people willing to go there, the better this profession becomes.

Your baseless, juvenile rants do not help anyone.

I haven't been there in over 5 years but when tools begin baseless, unwarranted accusations that all pilots from GIA are weak and incompetent. It pisses me off.

I am out.

 

[ohplease!]

So since they're furloughing, is it just a single pilot operation now?

...an even more interesting question.....PFTer's...PCL128?

 

[PCL_128]

I see that Gulfstream is furloughing..... that raises and interesting question....

If you bought your job to start with and you get furloughed, do they give you all your money back or do they pro-rate it?

I just looked through their IBT contract, and it seems that the IBT negotiated a side letter that lets them continue the PFT program while furloughing pilots, they just have to get rid of the PFT pilots within three days after they each complete their 250 hours. I could almost understand this in their first contract, but this is their second IBT contract. Could the IBT really not do any better than that? Come on. Kill the damned program.

 

[Kalifornia]

Your baseless, juvenile rants do not help anyone.

I haven't been there in over 5 years but when tools begin baseless, unwarranted accusations that all pilots from GIA are weak and incompetent. It pisses me off.

I am out.

I'll just let the Wall Street Journal take over my "juvenile rants"...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124293891324544689.html

FAA Probes Trainer of Commuter Pilots

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Well,
Lets see. Everything in aviation is about LEARNED experience. Gulfstream offers a short cut to the airlines. These pilots may learn the basics of flying an aircraft, but they are left behind in experience. Every pilot who has climbed the aviation ladder, has over the years known or heard about the pilot who got his instrument and went out and killed themselves. How 'bout that freight pilot who crashed and killed themselves, ect on and on. Exposure to the process of flying is a cumulative process, experience allows a pilot to adapt and adjust his/her behavior to allow survival in the process, stop learning from the process and the time bomb starts ticking again. Gulfstream and all puppy mill pilots all start out with the experience deficit, over time and experience they can accumulate enough experience to survive. Enough experience in any airframe will provide some insulation from the selection process. The problem lies when the candidate lacking basic fundamental skills tackles a new task(a/c) that the ticking of the bomb starts anew. The proof is in the FARs, no green on green crew pairings, this process is codified to prevent the excessive risk situation. The F/O for all her 1600 hrs was as green as the grass on my lawn 1600 hrs of going round the pattern didn't give her any additional skills that the first 300 gave her. Any seasoned aviator would never raise the flaps during a stall event. A seasoned aviator might reach forward and check thrust, or call out airspeed or sink rate, but raise the flaps? The Captain is the gun, ammo and hair trigger, the F/O is the safety on the gun, if either the captain or the f/o did this job correctly this thread would not be here. There is plenty more I could add but I am now bored and an gonna hit some porn sites, you guys bore me.
PBR

 

[FastJP4]

Because you don't fly anything fast enough to kill you.

This should be vaulted as one of the most ignorant statements ever made on FI - which is saying alot.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Why did it take a third crash for people to go: "Hmmm..!"

A couple years ago, I said the same thing and people jumped on me for using my VA benefits to "buy" a 737 type rating.

Wiki has been all over this, why did it take the Clinton News Network so long?

 

[waka]

So since they're furloughing, is it just a single pilot operation now?

"Now"? Gulfstream has always been a single pilot operation!:laugh:

 

[SplitBar]

"Now"? Gulfstream has always been a single pilot operation!:laugh:

More like single pilot with a distraction operation.

 

[Nindiri]

I got this form the other forum but it is interesting.

The last 3 fatal airline crashes Were Colgan, Comair 5191, and Pinnacle 3701
Colgans Captain = Gulfstream
Comair's Captain = Gulfstream
Both Pinnacle Pilots = Gulfstream


Comments.

Not to deny the entertainment value of several outstanding rants in this thread, but the above list is, of course, very inaccurate. There were at least three other fatal accidents involving US airlines during that same period.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

WOW!!! Continental Airlines must be proud of that Captain. What a piece of work. I feel sorry for his 2 sons. They have no idea that their father is putting them in harms way by attending this flight school. This is child abuse. Time for the State to step in.

Looks like all three of them can read from a Q-card. It just shows us all how a major will aline themselves with any company that will pay a fee. CAL is no different. So be careful in years to come at CAL if those two are headed there.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Keep drinking that company Kool-Aid

Okay here we go again! You people absoultly amaze me with your connections of an accident and GTA. One thing you are all missing is the fact that each one of these individuals has left GIA and was trained at another airline. True each individual you mention was at GTA and flew for GIA. What you are missing to mention is that there has never been a fatal accident at GIA in all the years of opperation since 1991. I have worked at GIA and in the training department since 2000. Our training is not easy, I have had many of the former students talk to me after leaving to another airline and they say that GIA training was the most diffcult. In particular I have some very detailed information on the Colgan case as I was the instructor the taught the CA at GIA. Now the information we provided them was more than satisfactory after they reviewed our training proceduers. They are not so satisfied with the training that the pilots recieved at Colgan, more will be comming out on that in the near future, form the FAA. Same for the Pinnicale flight. It seems the constant is the lack of training the crewmembers received at other airlines, not GIA.

No kidding, you work for CA. I could tell by your first sentence. Nobody is missing the fact that these accidents have happened at other airlines. We are all nailing the fact to the wall that the common thread with three fatal accidents is Gulfstream was the foundation of their formal training. It's Investigation 101 for any fed or LEA.

The reason these prior students came back and said there training they received at your school was because it was their first formal training. I am sure you guys have a more structured training environment then some little FBO style or a mom-n-pop school out in BFE.

No way around it, if you build a ********************ty foundation for a house then the rest of the house will be ********************ty. Same goes for a pilot. Some can be saved and others will not. The FAA should look hard at EACH place the pilots from the three accidents have worked and trained.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

I just looked through their IBT contract, and it seems that the IBT negotiated a side letter that lets them continue the PFT program while furloughing pilots, they just have to get rid of the PFT pilots within three days after they each complete their 250 hours. I could almost understand this in their first contract, but this is their second IBT contract. Could the IBT really not do any better than that? Come on. Kill the damned program.

Well, one is a training contract and the other is a work-related contract and of course governed by the RLA. If the company didn't meet the terms of the training contract then they be held liable for breach of contract.

As for the IBT, well enough said there. They are not much different then ALPA regarding the parent union shop. The locals are only as strong as the parent union HQ and must pilots involved in both will tell ya that the support (both physical and financial) are limited.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Wall Street Journal has yet another piece on the Academy up today