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Gulfstream Academy track record
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FastJP4
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Just so I have a better understanding, by the time one of these GIA actually gets on the a/c, has he/she not had to pass all the same basic prerequisites as they would have at any other regional? IF they have, then they are no longer a student - as they have qualified for the position. I am also sure that GIA must have FED approved checkairmen to provide IOE as with any other airline, and the FO candidate must be signed off from that in order to fly as an FO.
If that's the case, maybe one should be looking at the training departments where these accidents are occuring. As stated earlier - GIA does not appear to have any fatal accidents that I can find.
I am not debating the PFT aspect, but playing devils advocate to those that seem to think GIA is culpable for these accidents. Looking at their website info - it would appear that hundreds - if not thousands - have gone through there. If GIA was so horrible (from a training perspective) wouldn't there be aircraft falling out of the sky on a weekly basis?
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WalterSobchak
Am I wrong?
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
- Posts
- 1,436
Not defending this guy, but...
Based on my reading of pilot's postings on various aviation forums...if spelling is a prerequisite for being a good instructor, well, then we're all screwed.
spelling is not my strong point i am not one to deny that!
JP4 is correct I have seen well over 1700 pilots pass through GIA and i am sure if everyone was to ask the airline they are flying for may have a GIA grad. All pilots that fly for GIA must have a multi comm just as with any other airline. Yes we do 2 weeks of OM-1, 2 weeks of systems, 9 sessions in Cockpit mock up, 8 sessions in full motion, Checkride by APD, 20 hours of IOE. That is just the minimum training one of our FO's receive at GIA
JP4 is correct I have seen well over 1700 pilots pass through GIA and i am sure if everyone was to ask the airline they are flying for may have a GIA grad. All pilots that fly for GIA must have a multi comm just as with any other airline. Yes we do 2 weeks of OM-1, 2 weeks of systems, 9 sessions in Cockpit mock up, 8 sessions in full motion, Checkride by APD, 20 hours of IOE. That is just the minimum training one of our FO's receive at GIA
an email to Allan Chernoff. I did not send this but I do agree and disagree with some points here.
Allan,
As far as Gulfstream Airlines goes if you do your research you will see that the airline has not had a fatal accident in its history. In fact, the few mechanical incidents they have had came with praise from passengers aboard the aircraft mentioning how professional the situation was handled and how satisfied they were with the outcome. Do some research!!! The problem pilots have with this outfit is that it is a "Pay For Training / Pay for Job" program. At 250 hours you become eligible to go through Gulfstream's training program which is FAA approved and regulated, once you pass the training you pay for 250 hours in a Beech 1900. There are several outfits out there like this one. Gulfstream is the only one in which passengers are carried on the aircraft. Pilots believe that by paying for your training and sitting in the right seat of an aircraft that you are basically stealing a job away from other pilots who cant afford the program. Which I cant argue with but that is the issue among pilots. However, find me a profession in which you dont have to pay for your training in some way. doctors, lawyers, teachers and even journalists have paid in some way for specialized training. Most of the time it is for a college degree or graduate school. In pilots cases you pay for your hours. This is a non story because of the fact that the FAA has approved this type of activity. So agree or not it is approved by the government. A year or two ago when the regionals were hiring, they were hiring pilots with as little as 500 hours of total flying time and putting them in charge of 50 seat regional jets and turboprops (Do your research of regional pilots hired between 2004 and now), compare this to 250 hour pilots in a 19 seat turbo prop that island hops over to the bahamas which has a clean safety record (with some minor maintenance issues) and it is not even worth comparing.
So if your looking to place blame on the last couple airline accidents lets look at the facts.......
Colgan 3407 - Colgan hired this captain, Colgan knew he failed flight tests on the q400, colgan still placed him in charge of this aircraft, Colgan did not train this guy on the stick pusher, The FAA does not require training on the stick pusher. Also the first officer who was not a Gulfstream product may have put the nail in the coffin when moving the flaps from a landing configuration all the way to 0 degrees without command from the captain. Look at the crash annimation from the ntsb and watch what happens when the flaps are put up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I ......You will notice that when she puts the flaps to 0 the aircraft loses altitude rapidly and this is when this stall was irrecoverable. Ask any private pilot with 50 hours and they will know this was a fatal move by the First Officer. Not placing blame on her (of course the captain put them in this situation) but for the sake of this Gulfstream arguement this former flight instructor sure did not help the situation (and did not have any icing experience, something she would have gotten at Gulfstream Airlines).
As far as the other accidents go involving Gulfstream pilots....in the Comair lexington crash the Gulfstream pilot was the First Officer. In every airliner the Captain is responsible for taxiing the aircraft on the ground at all times even onto the runway to takeoff before handing the controls off to the First Officer. Just look at the CVR transcript from this crash you will see that the Captain put them on this runway and then handed the controls over. Yes I do realize its a two man crew however to add to the confusion the chart of the airport available to this crew did not have a taxi way publish to the intended runway for takeoff, was this because of Gulfstream Airlines??? Again do your research on these accidents and you will see that some small airline in south florida that barely employs 150 pilots and flies 19 people over to the bahamas is not to blame here.
If you interview airlines such as Southwest, Continental, UPS, Spirit just to name a few you will see that many airlines employ many former Gulfstream pilots who have had succesful and very safe careers. Facts are facts and these are the facts. Gulfstream trained Captain Renslow on a Beech 1900....he did not crash it. Colgan trained him on a Q400.....he crashed it. Every aircraft is different and requires specific training. So please do your research on a topic before you log on to an internet chat room to find facts..... what a joke. All you are going to get from this chat board are pilots with strong opinions about how Gulfstream pilots steal jobs away from more qualified and deserving pilots by paying for the job. Again I cannot argue this point. But these are opinions and not the facts.
Sad to see a Senior Correspondent for CNN is too lazy to do research on a topic and instead resorts to an internet chat board to get opinions instead of facts. So until Gulfstream Airlines has a fatal crash or one of there pilots steals your job by paying for it we have nothing more to talk about on this topic.
Thank you for your time
Allan,
As far as Gulfstream Airlines goes if you do your research you will see that the airline has not had a fatal accident in its history. In fact, the few mechanical incidents they have had came with praise from passengers aboard the aircraft mentioning how professional the situation was handled and how satisfied they were with the outcome. Do some research!!! The problem pilots have with this outfit is that it is a "Pay For Training / Pay for Job" program. At 250 hours you become eligible to go through Gulfstream's training program which is FAA approved and regulated, once you pass the training you pay for 250 hours in a Beech 1900. There are several outfits out there like this one. Gulfstream is the only one in which passengers are carried on the aircraft. Pilots believe that by paying for your training and sitting in the right seat of an aircraft that you are basically stealing a job away from other pilots who cant afford the program. Which I cant argue with but that is the issue among pilots. However, find me a profession in which you dont have to pay for your training in some way. doctors, lawyers, teachers and even journalists have paid in some way for specialized training. Most of the time it is for a college degree or graduate school. In pilots cases you pay for your hours. This is a non story because of the fact that the FAA has approved this type of activity. So agree or not it is approved by the government. A year or two ago when the regionals were hiring, they were hiring pilots with as little as 500 hours of total flying time and putting them in charge of 50 seat regional jets and turboprops (Do your research of regional pilots hired between 2004 and now), compare this to 250 hour pilots in a 19 seat turbo prop that island hops over to the bahamas which has a clean safety record (with some minor maintenance issues) and it is not even worth comparing.
So if your looking to place blame on the last couple airline accidents lets look at the facts.......
Colgan 3407 - Colgan hired this captain, Colgan knew he failed flight tests on the q400, colgan still placed him in charge of this aircraft, Colgan did not train this guy on the stick pusher, The FAA does not require training on the stick pusher. Also the first officer who was not a Gulfstream product may have put the nail in the coffin when moving the flaps from a landing configuration all the way to 0 degrees without command from the captain. Look at the crash annimation from the ntsb and watch what happens when the flaps are put up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I ......You will notice that when she puts the flaps to 0 the aircraft loses altitude rapidly and this is when this stall was irrecoverable. Ask any private pilot with 50 hours and they will know this was a fatal move by the First Officer. Not placing blame on her (of course the captain put them in this situation) but for the sake of this Gulfstream arguement this former flight instructor sure did not help the situation (and did not have any icing experience, something she would have gotten at Gulfstream Airlines).
As far as the other accidents go involving Gulfstream pilots....in the Comair lexington crash the Gulfstream pilot was the First Officer. In every airliner the Captain is responsible for taxiing the aircraft on the ground at all times even onto the runway to takeoff before handing the controls off to the First Officer. Just look at the CVR transcript from this crash you will see that the Captain put them on this runway and then handed the controls over. Yes I do realize its a two man crew however to add to the confusion the chart of the airport available to this crew did not have a taxi way publish to the intended runway for takeoff, was this because of Gulfstream Airlines??? Again do your research on these accidents and you will see that some small airline in south florida that barely employs 150 pilots and flies 19 people over to the bahamas is not to blame here.
If you interview airlines such as Southwest, Continental, UPS, Spirit just to name a few you will see that many airlines employ many former Gulfstream pilots who have had succesful and very safe careers. Facts are facts and these are the facts. Gulfstream trained Captain Renslow on a Beech 1900....he did not crash it. Colgan trained him on a Q400.....he crashed it. Every aircraft is different and requires specific training. So please do your research on a topic before you log on to an internet chat room to find facts..... what a joke. All you are going to get from this chat board are pilots with strong opinions about how Gulfstream pilots steal jobs away from more qualified and deserving pilots by paying for the job. Again I cannot argue this point. But these are opinions and not the facts.
Sad to see a Senior Correspondent for CNN is too lazy to do research on a topic and instead resorts to an internet chat board to get opinions instead of facts. So until Gulfstream Airlines has a fatal crash or one of there pilots steals your job by paying for it we have nothing more to talk about on this topic.
Thank you for your time
CX880
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
- Posts
- 2,861
I can't explain it but all of the pilots that I have gotten to know from GIA were very incompetent. It's also interesting to note that two of them failed their initial training at a regional. Explain that to me if they supposedly already passed b1900 training. If given the choice I would not fly on their airplanes unless they were SIC. Granted these were all the PFT idiots that were spit out of the program after the 250 hours of the ride along. I'm sure the training CAs etc are nice folks.
Plus from what I heard from one of them the flying that you do at GIA is not exactly all that great of an experience. VFR island hopping on a single pilot airplane. It's still pretty different from the RJ/Tprop SIC position at the other regionals.
Plus from what I heard from one of them the flying that you do at GIA is not exactly all that great of an experience. VFR island hopping on a single pilot airplane. It's still pretty different from the RJ/Tprop SIC position at the other regionals.
dang i removed my post on accident but you can read it below. Not the airline that makes the rule it is the FAA. Our extra training for the ne is no different than other airlines that have special training for airports or other operations. every airline has it from us to fedex, ups, delta, etc. so that point is invalid.
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CX880
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
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- 2,861
What? Wow. You mean to tell me and the whole world that GIA would prefer to "train" line pilots on how to fly at an airline down in FL because the weather is not down to mins? You don't even trust your pilots to go up to the NE by giving them additional ground and sim?? That makes no sense. When an airline trains a pilot, he or she is expected to fly that airplane under any conditions. You guys have double standards over there for your pft pilots??
Long Time Gone
Never Did The Atkins
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2003
- Posts
- 1,012
I've read through the entire thread up until my post and I have to point out incorrect information.
The Comair CA was not a product of GTA or GIA. He was a product of CAA, now known as DCA. He was in Instructor in Flying Services, which is the Part 61 side. I knew Jeff and just want to defend him despite the accident.
PeanuckleCRJ
Hurrrrrrrr
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- Jul 21, 2004
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