Gulfstream Academy track record

[Dannone]

I hope you are kidding. Now I know exactly why they are such bad pilots, they are being trained by a guy that can't even spell!

 

[FastJP4]

and here is the worse part...

The paying Continental passengers in the back, have NO IDEA their FO is a student, paying for his time.. none. How did the FAA buy off on this??

Just so I have a better understanding, by the time one of these GIA actually gets on the a/c, has he/she not had to pass all the same basic prerequisites as they would have at any other regional? IF they have, then they are no longer a student - as they have qualified for the position. I am also sure that GIA must have FED approved checkairmen to provide IOE as with any other airline, and the FO candidate must be signed off from that in order to fly as an FO.

If that's the case, maybe one should be looking at the training departments where these accidents are occuring. As stated earlier - GIA does not appear to have any fatal accidents that I can find.

I am not debating the PFT aspect, but playing devils advocate to those that seem to think GIA is culpable for these accidents. Looking at their website info - it would appear that hundreds - if not thousands - have gone through there. If GIA was so horrible (from a training perspective) wouldn't there be aircraft falling out of the sky on a weekly basis?

 

[WalterSobchak]

I hope you are kidding. Now I know exactly why they are such bad pilots, they are being trained by a guy that can't even spell!

Not defending this guy, but...

Based on my reading of pilot's postings on various aviation forums...if spelling is a prerequisite for being a good instructor, well, then we're all screwed.

 

[s3jetman]

spelling is not my strong point i am not one to deny that!

JP4 is correct I have seen well over 1700 pilots pass through GIA and i am sure if everyone was to ask the airline they are flying for may have a GIA grad. All pilots that fly for GIA must have a multi comm just as with any other airline. Yes we do 2 weeks of OM-1, 2 weeks of systems, 9 sessions in Cockpit mock up, 8 sessions in full motion, Checkride by APD, 20 hours of IOE. That is just the minimum training one of our FO's receive at GIA

 

[VxClimb]

an email to Allan Chernoff. I did not send this but I do agree and disagree with some points here.


Allan,
As far as Gulfstream Airlines goes if you do your research you will see that the airline has not had a fatal accident in its history. In fact, the few mechanical incidents they have had came with praise from passengers aboard the aircraft mentioning how professional the situation was handled and how satisfied they were with the outcome. Do some research!!! The problem pilots have with this outfit is that it is a "Pay For Training / Pay for Job" program. At 250 hours you become eligible to go through Gulfstream's training program which is FAA approved and regulated, once you pass the training you pay for 250 hours in a Beech 1900. There are several outfits out there like this one. Gulfstream is the only one in which passengers are carried on the aircraft. Pilots believe that by paying for your training and sitting in the right seat of an aircraft that you are basically stealing a job away from other pilots who cant afford the program. Which I cant argue with but that is the issue among pilots. However, find me a profession in which you dont have to pay for your training in some way. doctors, lawyers, teachers and even journalists have paid in some way for specialized training. Most of the time it is for a college degree or graduate school. In pilots cases you pay for your hours. This is a non story because of the fact that the FAA has approved this type of activity. So agree or not it is approved by the government. A year or two ago when the regionals were hiring, they were hiring pilots with as little as 500 hours of total flying time and putting them in charge of 50 seat regional jets and turboprops (Do your research of regional pilots hired between 2004 and now), compare this to 250 hour pilots in a 19 seat turbo prop that island hops over to the bahamas which has a clean safety record (with some minor maintenance issues) and it is not even worth comparing.
So if your looking to place blame on the last couple airline accidents lets look at the facts.......
Colgan 3407 - Colgan hired this captain, Colgan knew he failed flight tests on the q400, colgan still placed him in charge of this aircraft, Colgan did not train this guy on the stick pusher, The FAA does not require training on the stick pusher. Also the first officer who was not a Gulfstream product may have put the nail in the coffin when moving the flaps from a landing configuration all the way to 0 degrees without command from the captain. Look at the crash annimation from the ntsb and watch what happens when the flaps are put up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I ......You will notice that when she puts the flaps to 0 the aircraft loses altitude rapidly and this is when this stall was irrecoverable. Ask any private pilot with 50 hours and they will know this was a fatal move by the First Officer. Not placing blame on her (of course the captain put them in this situation) but for the sake of this Gulfstream arguement this former flight instructor sure did not help the situation (and did not have any icing experience, something she would have gotten at Gulfstream Airlines).
As far as the other accidents go involving Gulfstream pilots....in the Comair lexington crash the Gulfstream pilot was the First Officer. In every airliner the Captain is responsible for taxiing the aircraft on the ground at all times even onto the runway to takeoff before handing the controls off to the First Officer. Just look at the CVR transcript from this crash you will see that the Captain put them on this runway and then handed the controls over. Yes I do realize its a two man crew however to add to the confusion the chart of the airport available to this crew did not have a taxi way publish to the intended runway for takeoff, was this because of Gulfstream Airlines??? Again do your research on these accidents and you will see that some small airline in south florida that barely employs 150 pilots and flies 19 people over to the bahamas is not to blame here.
If you interview airlines such as Southwest, Continental, UPS, Spirit just to name a few you will see that many airlines employ many former Gulfstream pilots who have had succesful and very safe careers. Facts are facts and these are the facts. Gulfstream trained Captain Renslow on a Beech 1900....he did not crash it. Colgan trained him on a Q400.....he crashed it. Every aircraft is different and requires specific training. So please do your research on a topic before you log on to an internet chat room to find facts..... what a joke. All you are going to get from this chat board are pilots with strong opinions about how Gulfstream pilots steal jobs away from more qualified and deserving pilots by paying for the job. Again I cannot argue this point. But these are opinions and not the facts.
Sad to see a Senior Correspondent for CNN is too lazy to do research on a topic and instead resorts to an internet chat board to get opinions instead of facts. So until Gulfstream Airlines has a fatal crash or one of there pilots steals your job by paying for it we have nothing more to talk about on this topic.
Thank you for your time

 

[CX880]

I can't explain it but all of the pilots that I have gotten to know from GIA were very incompetent. It's also interesting to note that two of them failed their initial training at a regional. Explain that to me if they supposedly already passed b1900 training. If given the choice I would not fly on their airplanes unless they were SIC. Granted these were all the PFT idiots that were spit out of the program after the 250 hours of the ride along. I'm sure the training CAs etc are nice folks.

Plus from what I heard from one of them the flying that you do at GIA is not exactly all that great of an experience. VFR island hopping on a single pilot airplane. It's still pretty different from the RJ/Tprop SIC position at the other regionals.

 

[s3jetman]

dang i removed my post on accident but you can read it below. Not the airline that makes the rule it is the FAA. Our extra training for the ne is no different than other airlines that have special training for airports or other operations. every airline has it from us to fedex, ups, delta, etc. so that point is invalid.

 

[CX880]

Your statements are true with the flying in SFLA. It is exactly the type of flying environment that individuals should be learning the basics of the airline, and how to operate an airliner under the proper supervision. I have flown my first winter in the NE, as i chose to fly the be1900 at the cle base. I, and the airline, will not allow ne flying by the 250 hour pilots. Each pilot goes through winter opps training, ground and sim, before they are allowed to fly in conditions other than SFLA. You have to get experience somewhere i would prefer they get it in the bahamas. True the 1900 is a part 23 aircraft, and also single pilot qualified, but you know as well as I do the airline is required to fly with two pilots.

What? Wow. You mean to tell me and the whole world that GIA would prefer to "train" line pilots on how to fly at an airline down in FL because the weather is not down to mins? You don't even trust your pilots to go up to the NE by giving them additional ground and sim?? That makes no sense. When an airline trains a pilot, he or she is expected to fly that airplane under any conditions. You guys have double standards over there for your pft pilots??

 

[Long Time Gone]

I got this form the other forum but it is interesting.

The last 3 fatal airline crashes Were Colgan, Comair 5191, and Pinnacle 3701
Colgans Captain = Gulfstream
Comair's Captain = Gulfstream
Both Pinnacle Pilots = Gulfstream


Comments.

I've read through the entire thread up until my post and I have to point out incorrect information.

The Comair CA was not a product of GTA or GIA. He was a product of CAA, now known as DCA. He was in Instructor in Flying Services, which is the Part 61 side. I knew Jeff and just want to defend him despite the accident.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

It was the FO that was GIA on Comair 191.

 

[B190Captain]

WRONG! GA is training these pilots from the start. It's not the airlines job to train a pilot basic fundamentals of flying. It's called the "Law of Primacy." If a student is given sub-par training from sub-par instructors from a sub-par flight school, guess what? The student will turn out to be a sub-par pilot. Result? Fatalities and crashes which stem from one source. Gulfstream Academy. Hard facts, numbers, and statistics don't lie. There is NO defense for Gulfstream. The damage is too great to ignore anymore.

Law of Primacy? Well let's take a look:


"An email from Embry-Riddle, thought some might be interested. Although DH is an ERAU alumni and we both worked there, we didn't know any of these 4 folks. What a Fall it's been for Embry-Riddle. Last month we lost two long-time faculty members, Michael Corradi and Bob Sweginnis in a mid-air collision while they were practicing for October's Prescott Air Show.

We have more sad news to report involving pilots with Embry-Riddle connections. Elizabeth "Liz" Morrison, 31, an Embry-Riddle graduate, died Sunday, Oct. 24 in the crash of Hendrick Motorsports Beech 200 King Air near Martinsville, Virginia. Elizabeth, who lived in Concord, North Carolina, graduated from the Daytona Beach campus in 1995 in Aerospace Studies. She was co-pilot on Sunday's flight.

We learned after informing you of the death of Embry-Riddle graduate
Jonathan Palmer , first officer on the Corporate Airlines flight 5966 in Kirksville, Missouri last week, that the pilot, Kim William Sasse, 48, of Ramsey, New Jersey, also attended the Daytona Beach campus of Embry-Riddle.

Beginning with crash of the Pinnacle Airlines CRJ2 which took the life of Embry-Riddle alumnus Jesse Rhodes on Oct. 14, four pilots with ties to Embry-Riddle have lost their lives in three separate crashes in the past two weeks.

Embry-Riddle trains one in four pilots in the United States."

Uh oh. Could Riddle be the problem? Oh wait, I got it. THE FAA IS THE PROBLEM!! ALL I MEAN ALL PILOTS INVOLVED IN THESE ACCIDENTS OR INCIDENTS HAVE CERTIFICATES ISSUED BY THE FAA!!! THAT'S IT!!

This thread is pointless.


Bottom line to this day.

GIA - 0 fatalities

 

[HA25]

I've read through the entire thread up until my post and I have to point out incorrect information.

The Comair CA was not a product of GTA or GIA. He was a product of CAA, now known as DCA. He was in Instructor in Flying Services, which is the Part 61 side. I knew Jeff and just want to defend him despite the accident.

I believe it was the FO on the comair which is what the confusion was..nevertheless..

 

[acpilot]

disregard

 

[Poahi]

Law of Primacy? Well let's take a look:

Embry-Riddle trains one in four pilots in the United States."

Including the captain on AA 587.

 

[nimtz]

Your statements are true with the flying in SFLA. It is exactly the type of flying environment that individuals should be learning the basics of the airline, and how to operate an airliner under the proper supervision. I have flown my first winter in the NE, as i chose to fly the be1900 at the cle base. I, and the airline, will not allow ne flying by the 250 hour pilots. Each pilot goes through winter opps training, ground and sim, before they are allowed to fly in conditions other than SFLA. You have to get experience somewhere i would prefer they get it in the bahamas. True the 1900 is a part 23 aircraft, and also single pilot qualified, but you know as well as I do the airline is required to fly with two pilots.

Proof positive why GIA scares the sh!t out of me. I wish CAL would power wash the Golden Globes off the tails.

 

[cougarblue]

ahhh i was just comenting how irritatting and stupid many pilots are... this thread proves it! I went to gulfstream... best training ive had.

the pinnacle captain (3701) actually came from transtates and did NOT go through the gulfstream first officer program. just went there to get pic.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I'm afraid the case for GIA being the source of the poor airmanship which caused these accidents fails to take the chain of causation to it's ultimate genesis. The fact that GIA grads have been involved in so many high profile incidents as of late is a compelling coincidence but it ignores the true problems to be found in training throughout aviation today.

I recieved my training through ERAU in the early '90s. At that point in time my instructors had literally thousands of hours of dual given. Basic airmanship (flying the airplane) was the overarching focus of all of the training I recieved. By basic airmanship I mean I was expected to intimately understand how to "fly the wing." The aviate, navigate, communicate rule was strictly applied, discipline was constantly reinforced and we all enjoyed the benefit of having instuctors who were truly teachers and skilled in their art. By the time I finished my CFII (a real bastard of a course then) I thought they would hire me as an instructor. Their answer? Go get some more time... You aren't experienced enough. None of this was unique to Riddle at this point in history. There were many part 141 schools as equally proud of their product and jealous of maintaining their quality edge.

So, it was off to Joe Shmoe's FBO I went. Eventually I returned to Riddle as a CFI. By now, the mid 90's hiring boom began and for a while things remained ok. But as a few years went by things began to change. Good people were leaving at an ever accelerating rate for the airlines, many of them to PFT "training bond" schemes (Comair and ACA at the time). Average instuctor experience began to plummet. Pressure began to build on the CFI's from both the flight department and the students to do it faster and cheaper. The Training Course Outline was rewritten again and again to accomodate lower completion times and costs to remain competitive with other 141 flight schools. Entrance requirements also suffered, and it became the instructors duty to not only teach but to "push through" less motivated and talented students. There was talk of replacing actual aircraft time with simulator time even at the primary level in order to control rising costs. Good instructors fought these changes tooth and nail, but to no avail. Less and less time was being devoted to the basics of truly flying an airplane. By the time I left in the late '90s (never did have the money to pay for a job or endure a training bond) I was frustrated and concerned about what had happened to the quality of flight instruction at the school.

Again, this was not unique to ERAU. My feelings were echoed by friends and collegues across the training spectrum.

Flash forward about 6 years. I had finally made my way to the left seat of a regional turboprop after two airlines and flying thousands of hours as an FO, a CFI and a student. It was still a big step... Anyone who has upgraded knows what I mean. Now I had the unfortunate opportunity to bear witness to the result of the changes I had witnessed while still a CFI. While many of my FO's were talented, motivated and dedicated to learning their craft, there were also many who lacked a true understanding about how an airplane really flies. I found myself not only learning how to be a captain, but also teaching what I considered to be fundimental aircraft handling and knowledge with a load of paying passengers in the back. Over time the average experience of the FO's I worked with decreased and this "teaching" environment became more of the rule rather than the exception.

Again, this wasn't a unique situation. My frustrations were again echoed by many others in the same boat.

Do I fault the FO's I have flown with for this situation? Absolutely not. Had I been able to enjoy the fast track to the airlines they benefited from I would have taken advantage of it. It would be the apex of hyprocracy to say that I wouldn't have. Besides, being a good pilot is not a function of the number of hours in the logbook... It is the quality of the experience along the way which matters most. Look at the military and European airlines. They have low time pilots and yet those pilot have superior knowledge which compensates somewhat for what they lack in actual experience.

The problem is not GIA. It isn't ERAU. It isn't any one institution. The problem is that somewhere along the line we stopped training PILOTS. We instead move people through abbreviated pipelines, checking boxes and hoping against all hope that technology and luck will save them when the proverbial feces hits the rotating air movement device. Safety won't improve until we get back to basics and adhere to the time honored and blood proven building blocks of creating airmen and airwomen, not systems managers engaging in OJT.

The captain of 3407 is undeniably at fault for the death of his passengers. It was his sacred duty to care for and protect them and on that night his skills were found wanting. But... He was the product of a system. In my mind, the system that created him is equally culpable in the deaths of those people. If it hadn't had been this crew it would have been another. In every sense of the term, this was an
"accident waiting to happen" because of the training philosophy we have collectively embraced.

 

[HA25]

ahhh i was just comenting how irritatting and stupid many pilots are... this thread proves it! I went to gulfstream... best training ive had.

the pinnacle captain (3701) actually came from transtates and did NOT go through the gulfstream first officer program. just went there to get pic.

And you're an expert on good training because?

Got a lot of types on your certificate maybe? Flown at a few airlines?

What is your measuring stick?

 

[nimtz]

ahhh i was just comenting how irritatting and stupid many pilots are... this thread proves it! I went to gulfstream... best training ive had.

You proved your stupidity when you forked over 30K+ to Tommy Cooper. With that in mind, you are the last who should lecture on intellect.

 

[SEVEN]

ahhh i was just comenting how irritatting and stupid many pilots are... this thread proves it! I went to gulfstream... best training ive had.

the pinnacle captain (3701) actually came from transtates and did NOT go through the gulfstream first officer program. just went there to get pic.

Why am I not surprised that you and other GIA former students are sticking up for that place. It's like a Mesa pilot defending their work rules. But the truth is it doesn't stand up. Nice try though. Gulfstream is a scam flight school preying on the gullable. If you can defend a school scamming "pilots" to sit/pay in the right seat of a 121 operation, go ahead. But let me remind you of one thing: You and your other GIA buddies are hugely outnumbered. That flight school is a big problem and puts out crappy pilots in the airline industry. Period.

 

[HA25]

Why am I not surprised that you and other GIA former students are sticking up for that place. It's like a Mesa pilot defending their work rules. But the truth is it doesn't stand up. Nice try though. Gulfstream is a scam flight school preying on the gullable. If you can defend a school scamming "pilots" to sit/pay in the right seat of a 121 operation, go ahead. But let me remind you of one thing: You and your other GIA buddies are hugely outnumbered. That flight school is a big problem and puts out crappy pilots in the airline industry. Period.

he has a vested interest in defending it.. it's human nature. This is why that CNN reporter who wants to chat with GIA students is going to get no takers.. who wants to admit that they're a fail.

 

[trip]

and btw, I am proud to say that I sent this hot tip to CNN/FOX and NYTimes.. Glad to see CNN picked up on it.

Better hold that thought until you see the outcome, most likely it will be a butchered report of snippets out of context and unrecognizable to anyone inside the industry. I hope it is not.

I agree that the GIA business model attracts an unscrupulous bunch willing to take the shortcut approach to getting ahead in life, this probably says more about their character than stick and rudder skills. FWIW.

 

[HA25]

Failure? I'm sure there are thousands out there at basically every major airline and regional airline, myself included who would beg to differ.

However, you are a former SkyBus pilot.....how's that going for you? And a former ASA pilot, how much did you pay FSI to work there in the 90's? Was it 10 grand? I can't remember, maybe you can fill us in.

Skybus cost me nothing.. and yielded me with a lucrative A320 type rating which still pays the bills... and ASA didn't cost me a dime when I went thru. I was there subsequent to that program.

But either way, there is no comparison to having to in effect buy a type rating to get a job (this is common in the expat market) .. to buying FLIGHT TIME with paying passengers on board! When I went thru initial at ASA, we weeded out quite a few, including an Airforce F15 driver that month.. Even when pay for training started (which it soon ended with in a couple of years) it was no foregone conclusion you had a job, just because you paid to learn the E120 PRIOR to employment.

 

[CX880]

The problem is not GIA. It isn't ERAU. It isn't any one institution. The problem is that somewhere along the line we stopped training PILOTS. We instead move people through abbreviated pipelines, checking boxes and hoping against all hope that technology and luck will save them when the proverbial feces hits the rotating air movement device. Safety won't improve until we get back to basics and adhere to the time honored and blood proven building blocks of creating airmen and airwomen, not systems managers engaging in OJT.

The captain of 3407 is undeniably at fault for the death of his passengers. It was his sacred duty to care for and protect them and on that night his skills were found wanting. But... He was the product of a system. In my mind, the system that created him is equally culpable in the deaths of those people. If it hadn't had been this crew it would have been another. In every sense of the term, this was an
"accident waiting to happen" because of the training philosophy we have collectively embraced.

ERAU gets flak because of the notorious tool types that come out of there. Hey, if you want to spend 100k+ to go to riddle I could care less. However GIA and these other PFT places are the problem. They are reinforcing what you said about the lower and lower caliber of pilots of the new generation post 911 that have been taught that the bare minimum is OK and that taking short cuts is OK as well. Well what happens is the Pinnacle crash, Comair crash, and the Colgan crash. The worst part is they try to justify the 250 hours of paid time to sit right seat as no different than earning a college degree or any other career investment. The difference is that you don't need to pay 30000 to sit right seat on a crappy 1900 right seat. It's all free if you've earned it.

 

[flynryan15]

Anyone else see the irony in a a couple pilots from Gojets and Skybus pointing fingers at another airline and calling them a problem?:smash:

 

[HA25]

Anyone else see the irony in a a couple pilots from Gojets and Skybus pointing fingers at another airline and calling them a problem?:smash:

The fact that you would compare GoJet to Skybus shows why this bares no response, but incase you're attention span is short.. refer to my prior post. At Skybus, I flew with a group of very top notch airman who came from many backgrounds.. furloughed Majors' and a few retured ones... My sim partner was career Airforce.. I'd put that group up against your pilot group any day of the week pal. I made no attempt to hide working at SX on this forum because under my set of circumstances I saw nothing wrong with taking the job, and the upside potential it had was ligit. Were it not for 100/barrel oil, we'd still be there, and our union would have begin to fix the wages that that CAL re-tred imposed on us after the founder of the airline was kicked out..

You don't know anything about SX other than what you read on here, which is to say little.. That A320 type rating and my PIC experience on the airplane has since been a Godsend and the earnings I've been able to make as a result far greater than anything I can get in the US Job market.. So I have absolutely no regrets.

Now how do you compare Skybus to GoJets (a scab airline), or for that matter either of them to GIA? The discussion here is about the QUALITY of the airman that GIA produces, and the lack of experience they have when they join the workforce since they're bypassing a lot of formative CFI (PIC) work in many cases... The pilots I flew with at SX were for the most part 10000+ hour ATP's with in some cases decades of experience.. DAL, USAir, UAL, NWA, Ryan International (he was their #1 seniority), Jet Blue, American, etc.. Draw the parallels for me, since I'm clearly slow.

 

[SEVEN]

Hey! This thread is about bashing the crappy Gulfstream outfit. How did we get off topic on Skybus. I agree Skybus was a sham outfit waiting to fail from the begining. But, they can't be compared to GO---JETS. Guys that are furloughed will do almost anything to keep a flying job. That's what supported Skybus. Did they help the cause of industry as a whole? No. But they barely lasted 2 weeks. So I propose they didn't make much of a dent at all in the grand scheme of things. Skybus=small potatoes.

 

[WSurf]

I'm afraid the case for GIA being the source of the poor airmanship which caused these accidents fails to take the chain of causation to it's ultimate genesis. The fact that GIA grads have been involved in so many high profile incidents as of late is a compelling coincidence but it ignores the true problems to be found in training throughout aviation today.

I recieved my training through ERAU in the early '90s. At that point in time my instructors had literally thousands of hours of dual given. Basic airmanship (flying the airplane) was the overarching focus of all of the training I recieved. By basic airmanship I mean I was expected to intimately understand how to "fly the wing." The aviate, navigate, communicate rule was strictly applied, discipline was constantly reinforced and we all enjoyed the benefit of having instuctors who were truly teachers and skilled in their art. By the time I finished my CFII (a real bastard of a course then) I thought they would hire me as an instructor. Their answer? Go get some more time... You aren't experienced enough. None of this was unique to Riddle at this point in history. There were many part 141 schools as equally proud of their product and jealous of maintaining their quality edge.

So, it was off to Joe Shmoe's FBO I went. Eventually I returned to Riddle as a CFI. By now, the mid 90's hiring boom began and for a while things remained ok. But as a few years went by things began to change. Good people were leaving at an ever accelerating rate for the airlines, many of them to PFT "training bond" schemes (Comair and ACA at the time). Average instuctor experience began to plummet. Pressure began to build on the CFI's from both the flight department and the students to do it faster and cheaper. The Training Course Outline was rewritten again and again to accomodate lower completion times and costs to remain competitive with other 141 flight schools. Entrance requirements also suffered, and it became the instructors duty to not only teach but to "push through" less motivated and talented students. There was talk of replacing actual aircraft time with simulator time even at the primary level in order to control rising costs. Good instructors fought these changes tooth and nail, but to no avail. Less and less time was being devoted to the basics of truly flying an airplane. By the time I left in the late '90s (never did have the money to pay for a job or endure a training bond) I was frustrated and concerned about what had happened to the quality of flight instruction at the school.

Again, this was not unique to ERAU. My feelings were echoed by friends and collegues across the training spectrum.

Flash forward about 6 years. I had finally made my way to the left seat of a regional turboprop after two airlines and flying thousands of hours as an FO, a CFI and a student. It was still a big step... Anyone who has upgraded knows what I mean. Now I had the unfortunate opportunity to bear witness to the result of the changes I had witnessed while still a CFI. While many of my FO's were talented, motivated and dedicated to learning their craft, there were also many who lacked a true understanding about how an airplane really flies. I found myself not only learning how to be a captain, but also teaching what I considered to be fundimental aircraft handling and knowledge with a load of paying passengers in the back. Over time the average experience of the FO's I worked with decreased and this "teaching" environment became more of the rule rather than the exception.

Again, this wasn't a unique situation. My frustrations were again echoed by many others in the same boat.

Do I fault the FO's I have flown with for this situation? Absolutely not. Had I been able to enjoy the fast track to the airlines they benefited from I would have taken advantage of it. It would be the apex of hyprocracy to say that I wouldn't have. Besides, being a good pilot is not a function of the number of hours in the logbook... It is the quality of the experience along the way which matters most. Look at the military and European airlines. They have low time pilots and yet those pilot have superior knowledge which compensates somewhat for what they lack in actual experience.

The problem is not GIA. It isn't ERAU. It isn't any one institution. The problem is that somewhere along the line we stopped training PILOTS. We instead move people through abbreviated pipelines, checking boxes and hoping against all hope that technology and luck will save them when the proverbial feces hits the rotating air movement device. Safety won't improve until we get back to basics and adhere to the time honored and blood proven building blocks of creating airmen and airwomen, not systems managers engaging in OJT.

The captain of 3407 is undeniably at fault for the death of his passengers. It was his sacred duty to care for and protect them and on that night his skills were found wanting. But... He was the product of a system. In my mind, the system that created him is equally culpable in the deaths of those people. If it hadn't had been this crew it would have been another. In every sense of the term, this was an
"accident waiting to happen" because of the training philosophy we have collectively embraced.

Very good Post.......

 

[flynryan15]

The fact that you would compare GoJet to Skybus shows why this bares no response, but incase you're attention span is short.. refer to my prior post. At Skybus, I flew with a group of very top notch airman who came from many backgrounds.. furloughed Majors' and a few retured ones... My sim partner was career Airforce.. I'd put that group up against your pilot group any day of the week pal. I made no attempt to hide working at SX on this forum because under my set of circumstances I saw nothing wrong with taking the job, and the upside potential it had was ligit. Were it not for 100/barrel oil, we'd still be there, and our union would have begin to fix the wages that that CAL re-tred imposed on us after the founder of the airline was kicked out..

You don't know anything about SX other than what you read on here, which is to say little.. That A320 type rating and my PIC experience on the airplane has since been a Godsend and the earnings I've been able to make as a result far greater than anything I can get in the US Job market.. So I have absolutely no regrets.

Now how do you compare Skybus to GoJets (a scab airline), or for that matter either of them to GIA? The discussion here is about the QUALITY of the airman that GIA produces, and the lack of experience they have when they join the workforce since they're bypassing a lot of formative CFI (PIC) work in many cases... The pilots I flew with at SX were for the most part 10000+ hour ATP's with in some cases decades of experience.. DAL, USAir, UAL, NWA, Ryan International (he was their #1 seniority), Jet Blue, American, etc.. Draw the parallels for me, since I'm clearly slow.

WAAAAAAAA did I hit a nerver?!?!?! For baring no response that sure is a lovely 3 paragraph essay I got trying to justify your existence as a 2 dollar truck stop lot lizard blowing its way across the country!!

Why don't you go ask the Spirit pilot group how your pay rates helped their contract negotiations? I have heard from a few Spirit pilots the wonderful impact it has had on them. Your crap rates were even felt at the regional level, because they were brought up by the arbitrator when Pinnacle pilots were trying to get a great CRJ-900 rate! Those rates hurt any pilot group operating similar equipment PERIOD!

I know of a real quality aviator that was hired at Skybus. A guy from my own company after he got fired several times and ALPA couldn't get him his job back anymore Skybus hired him. I would love to have heard him justify his antics that cost him his job, but yet he still passed the interview. I saw him in Columbus with my own 2 eyes.

 

[HA25]

Why don't you go ask the Spirit pilot group how your pay rates helped their contract negotiations? I have heard from a few Spirit pilots the wonderful impact it has had on them. Your crap rates were even felt at the regional level, because they were brought up by the arbitrator when Pinnacle pilots were trying to get a great CRJ-900 rate! Those rates hurt any pilot group operating similar equipment PERIOD!

Thanks, glad to know I had a part in sticking it to Spirit, an LCC... I take that as a point of pride as an American pilot first and foremost.