Gulfstream Academy track record

[hawkerflyer]

Well at least the boys have their acting skills to fall back on if the whole airline pilot thing doesn't work out. Though I was watching Ron Burgundy in "Anchorman" again.

 

[s3jetman]

seven,

please explain to me how the ca flew for 3000 hours plus at colgan and they never saw the lack of compentancy or pilot skill level. how the hell can you blame GIA for not training the ca when colgan had him at the airline for such a long time without recognizing it. you make no sense at all and you talk about stats. 3 accidents and they were not the only crewmembers. it takes two people to fly the plane. Comair wow i quess it was the FO fault, because he survived. You want to put all this blame on the captain then you cant even talk about the comair crash because the fo was from GIA not the captain

 

[FastJP4]

Since I don't fly for a regional - I tend to not get into regional topics. But the Colgan crash and the first post of this thread sparked some interest. I don't agree with PFT, and the concept of a captain instructing basic airmanship while flying Part 121 ops would be insane. That being said, I don't buy into the "blame game" that everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon regarding these accidents. Here is what the facts I've looked at seem to state - and correct me if any of them are wrong:

On the Colgan crash, you had a CA that went through GIA over 3,000 hours ago and an FO that had 1,600 hours of instruction under her belt that "saw more actual on her first day of IOE than all her hours of instructing". Clearly the CA was so far removed from GIA, had been through Colgan training event on 3 different a/c, and had goodness knows many, many checkrides through Colgan. I fail to see what GIA had to do with any of that. The FO was a 1,600 hr instructor - that kind of goes against the whole instructor vs. not being an instructor game - and clearly shows that at least in some cases - giving instruction isn't the beat all end all to becoming a professional pilot.

Looking for and reviewing any GIA accidents/incidents: I could find a couple of gear related incidents (appeared to be mx issues from what I read) but could not find anything regarding someone being killed on this airline. In fact, on the couple of incidents and from pax remarks - it appears the pilot was actually very skillful in dealing with these incidents.

FWIW - I think it's fair to bang away at the PFT aspect, but I don't think it's accurate to say GIA had anything to do with these accidents. GIA has not augered a plane into the ground, and they've been flying a/c for a long time. It appears there are alot of GIA people in the majors, and I couldn't find where any GIA people have been involved with any accidents/incidents at that level.

 

[SEVEN]

seven,

please explain to me how the ca flew for 3000 hours plus at colgan and they never saw the lack of compentancy or pilot skill level. how the hell can you blame GIA for not training the ca when colgan had him at the airline for such a long time without recognizing it. you make no sense at all and you talk about stats. 3 accidents and they were not the only crewmembers. it takes two people to fly the plane. Comair wow i quess it was the FO fault, because he survived. You want to put all this blame on the captain then you cant even talk about the comair crash because the fo was from GIA not the captain

Why don't you explain to me why the company you work for is scamming people left and right. Paying to sit right seat in a 121 operation. Are you kidding me. How do you look at yourself in the mirror everyday. You know GIA is a joke just as much as everyone else. You just won't admit it because you've been drinking the company propaganda koolaid too long. You are another "lost soul." I feel bad for you. You know it and I know it: Gulfstream is a bad, bad place.

 

[HA25]

Why don't you explain to me why the company you work for is scamming people left and right. Paying to sit right seat in a 121 operation. Are you kidding me. How do you look at yourself in the mirror everyday. You know GIA is a joke just as much as everyone else. You just won't admit it because you've been drinking the company propaganda koolaid too long. You are another "lost soul." I feel bad for you. You know it and I know it: Gulfstream is a bad, bad place.

and here is the worse part...

The paying Continental passengers in the back, have NO IDEA their FO is a student, paying for his time.. none. How did the FAA buy off on this??

 

[G-force]

Re:Training Track Record !!!!????

The last 3 fatal airline crashes Were Colgan, Comair 5191, and Pinnacle 3701
Colgans Captain = Gulfstream
Comair's Captain = Gulfstream
Both Pinnacle Pilots = Gulfstream

Do the Feds know about this?? If so,does anyone think anything will be done??

 

[Minimaniac]

Why do I put blame at the feet of GIA?

GIA trains a wide range of pilots, just like any flight school. Some are great, some are good, and some ought to go home. The problem is that GIA doesn't send home as many pilots as it should. I knew over a dozen people personally at ERAU that dropped out of the flying portion because they just didn't have what it took. It's nothing to be ashamed of...I sure couldn't play basketball for a living! In the professional world, I have flown with a bunch of GIA grads. no doubt, there were some great guys. Motivated people will almost always suceed. There were some average ones as well, ones who could go through the motions but still needed time to put it all together. That's fine. not my ideal FO, but every flight school will pass the mediocre pilot. I can live with that. But, out of the ten worst pilots I have ever flown with, 7 of them were from GIA. GIA just doesn't do enough to weed out the struggling pilots. The proof is out there, and on the news, unfortunately. I am not saying that the big schools, the military, the mom and pop FBOs, and the cargo fliers haven't donated their share of problem pilots to the industry, but the recent trend of involvement of GIA pilots in the cockpit of fatal crashes should point to an underlying problem.

As it was said before, law of primacy. The Colgan pilot did not handle a wing stall in a straight wing aircraft properly, and did not notice airspeed decay. The Pinnacle crew did not respect the operating envelop of their aircraft, and again did not notice airspeed decay. On top of that, they showed horrendous decision making skills once in the emergency. I haven't verified if any of the Comair crew went to GIA, but runway heading is a basic item. In all of these cases, the fundementals of flying all showed weakness. Airspeed. Runway Heading. Stall recovery.

I have seen pilots fail 121 checkrides. I haven't yet, but I fully expect to at some point. It happens. However, the failures I have seen have been on focused standards, such as a pilot losing 200 feet on a stall recovery, or getting more than 10 knots off airspeed. But 150 kts at 410? Idle power during approach configuration at level flight to the point of a stall? These show an absolute ignorance of instrument flying skills and scanning. Sorry to say it. I must be a jerk.

 

[s3jetman]

fastjp4

you are absolutely correct. if anyone wants to argue about pft that is fine, it has been done here before. but do not say that people lost their lives in these accidents because the pilots went to GIA. The crews members were so far removed from GIA that the connections to GIA are unvalidated. If we are going to make that connection then I should lose all my certificates because of the following

Comair - First officer was my instructor at GIA
Pinnacle - I flew with the captain and I instructed the FO
private ground, inst ground, comm. ground school
Colgan - I instructed the CA in OM-1 class (others call it FOM, FLOP,
regs... etc)
Continental - The CA on the flight in Denver, I played golf with him last
Thursday in Houston

So it looks like i am the one that caused all these accidents?

 

[Minimaniac]

Well, I wouldn't say you caused them all (unless you nailed the CAL captain with a bad drive), but those who you instructed in an aircraft...

I had a former student of mine get violated. I signed him off. I thought he understood what I had taught him, but in my eyes I did not do enough. There were warning signs... At the time, I was just trying to get him to the minimum standard in that one area.

 

[s3jetman]

Minimanic,

You are absolutely correct there are some good and some sub-par pilots. do some sub-par pilots make it through all training departments, sure. Does GIA need to do a better job of weeding out the weak, yes i totally agree with this. In the past times we did a good job of it, when we got new mgmt it became about the money and not the quality, they are the same ones that opened then closed Jet U. We are working at returning to keeping a high standard. I was given allot of heat from mgmt about trying to remove pilots from the program that didn't belong. I got out of the instructing because i didn't play the games, but the mgmt we have now is very good and i look forward to returning to the training department soon.

 

[Dannone]

I hope you are kidding. Now I know exactly why they are such bad pilots, they are being trained by a guy that can't even spell!

 

[FastJP4]

and here is the worse part...

The paying Continental passengers in the back, have NO IDEA their FO is a student, paying for his time.. none. How did the FAA buy off on this??

Just so I have a better understanding, by the time one of these GIA actually gets on the a/c, has he/she not had to pass all the same basic prerequisites as they would have at any other regional? IF they have, then they are no longer a student - as they have qualified for the position. I am also sure that GIA must have FED approved checkairmen to provide IOE as with any other airline, and the FO candidate must be signed off from that in order to fly as an FO.

If that's the case, maybe one should be looking at the training departments where these accidents are occuring. As stated earlier - GIA does not appear to have any fatal accidents that I can find.

I am not debating the PFT aspect, but playing devils advocate to those that seem to think GIA is culpable for these accidents. Looking at their website info - it would appear that hundreds - if not thousands - have gone through there. If GIA was so horrible (from a training perspective) wouldn't there be aircraft falling out of the sky on a weekly basis?

 

[WalterSobchak]

I hope you are kidding. Now I know exactly why they are such bad pilots, they are being trained by a guy that can't even spell!

Not defending this guy, but...

Based on my reading of pilot's postings on various aviation forums...if spelling is a prerequisite for being a good instructor, well, then we're all screwed.

 

[s3jetman]

spelling is not my strong point i am not one to deny that!

JP4 is correct I have seen well over 1700 pilots pass through GIA and i am sure if everyone was to ask the airline they are flying for may have a GIA grad. All pilots that fly for GIA must have a multi comm just as with any other airline. Yes we do 2 weeks of OM-1, 2 weeks of systems, 9 sessions in Cockpit mock up, 8 sessions in full motion, Checkride by APD, 20 hours of IOE. That is just the minimum training one of our FO's receive at GIA

 

[VxClimb]

an email to Allan Chernoff. I did not send this but I do agree and disagree with some points here.


Allan,
As far as Gulfstream Airlines goes if you do your research you will see that the airline has not had a fatal accident in its history. In fact, the few mechanical incidents they have had came with praise from passengers aboard the aircraft mentioning how professional the situation was handled and how satisfied they were with the outcome. Do some research!!! The problem pilots have with this outfit is that it is a "Pay For Training / Pay for Job" program. At 250 hours you become eligible to go through Gulfstream's training program which is FAA approved and regulated, once you pass the training you pay for 250 hours in a Beech 1900. There are several outfits out there like this one. Gulfstream is the only one in which passengers are carried on the aircraft. Pilots believe that by paying for your training and sitting in the right seat of an aircraft that you are basically stealing a job away from other pilots who cant afford the program. Which I cant argue with but that is the issue among pilots. However, find me a profession in which you dont have to pay for your training in some way. doctors, lawyers, teachers and even journalists have paid in some way for specialized training. Most of the time it is for a college degree or graduate school. In pilots cases you pay for your hours. This is a non story because of the fact that the FAA has approved this type of activity. So agree or not it is approved by the government. A year or two ago when the regionals were hiring, they were hiring pilots with as little as 500 hours of total flying time and putting them in charge of 50 seat regional jets and turboprops (Do your research of regional pilots hired between 2004 and now), compare this to 250 hour pilots in a 19 seat turbo prop that island hops over to the bahamas which has a clean safety record (with some minor maintenance issues) and it is not even worth comparing.
So if your looking to place blame on the last couple airline accidents lets look at the facts.......
Colgan 3407 - Colgan hired this captain, Colgan knew he failed flight tests on the q400, colgan still placed him in charge of this aircraft, Colgan did not train this guy on the stick pusher, The FAA does not require training on the stick pusher. Also the first officer who was not a Gulfstream product may have put the nail in the coffin when moving the flaps from a landing configuration all the way to 0 degrees without command from the captain. Look at the crash annimation from the ntsb and watch what happens when the flaps are put up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I ......You will notice that when she puts the flaps to 0 the aircraft loses altitude rapidly and this is when this stall was irrecoverable. Ask any private pilot with 50 hours and they will know this was a fatal move by the First Officer. Not placing blame on her (of course the captain put them in this situation) but for the sake of this Gulfstream arguement this former flight instructor sure did not help the situation (and did not have any icing experience, something she would have gotten at Gulfstream Airlines).
As far as the other accidents go involving Gulfstream pilots....in the Comair lexington crash the Gulfstream pilot was the First Officer. In every airliner the Captain is responsible for taxiing the aircraft on the ground at all times even onto the runway to takeoff before handing the controls off to the First Officer. Just look at the CVR transcript from this crash you will see that the Captain put them on this runway and then handed the controls over. Yes I do realize its a two man crew however to add to the confusion the chart of the airport available to this crew did not have a taxi way publish to the intended runway for takeoff, was this because of Gulfstream Airlines??? Again do your research on these accidents and you will see that some small airline in south florida that barely employs 150 pilots and flies 19 people over to the bahamas is not to blame here.
If you interview airlines such as Southwest, Continental, UPS, Spirit just to name a few you will see that many airlines employ many former Gulfstream pilots who have had succesful and very safe careers. Facts are facts and these are the facts. Gulfstream trained Captain Renslow on a Beech 1900....he did not crash it. Colgan trained him on a Q400.....he crashed it. Every aircraft is different and requires specific training. So please do your research on a topic before you log on to an internet chat room to find facts..... what a joke. All you are going to get from this chat board are pilots with strong opinions about how Gulfstream pilots steal jobs away from more qualified and deserving pilots by paying for the job. Again I cannot argue this point. But these are opinions and not the facts.
Sad to see a Senior Correspondent for CNN is too lazy to do research on a topic and instead resorts to an internet chat board to get opinions instead of facts. So until Gulfstream Airlines has a fatal crash or one of there pilots steals your job by paying for it we have nothing more to talk about on this topic.
Thank you for your time

 

[CX880]

I can't explain it but all of the pilots that I have gotten to know from GIA were very incompetent. It's also interesting to note that two of them failed their initial training at a regional. Explain that to me if they supposedly already passed b1900 training. If given the choice I would not fly on their airplanes unless they were SIC. Granted these were all the PFT idiots that were spit out of the program after the 250 hours of the ride along. I'm sure the training CAs etc are nice folks.

Plus from what I heard from one of them the flying that you do at GIA is not exactly all that great of an experience. VFR island hopping on a single pilot airplane. It's still pretty different from the RJ/Tprop SIC position at the other regionals.

 

[s3jetman]

dang i removed my post on accident but you can read it below. Not the airline that makes the rule it is the FAA. Our extra training for the ne is no different than other airlines that have special training for airports or other operations. every airline has it from us to fedex, ups, delta, etc. so that point is invalid.

 

[CX880]

Your statements are true with the flying in SFLA. It is exactly the type of flying environment that individuals should be learning the basics of the airline, and how to operate an airliner under the proper supervision. I have flown my first winter in the NE, as i chose to fly the be1900 at the cle base. I, and the airline, will not allow ne flying by the 250 hour pilots. Each pilot goes through winter opps training, ground and sim, before they are allowed to fly in conditions other than SFLA. You have to get experience somewhere i would prefer they get it in the bahamas. True the 1900 is a part 23 aircraft, and also single pilot qualified, but you know as well as I do the airline is required to fly with two pilots.

What? Wow. You mean to tell me and the whole world that GIA would prefer to "train" line pilots on how to fly at an airline down in FL because the weather is not down to mins? You don't even trust your pilots to go up to the NE by giving them additional ground and sim?? That makes no sense. When an airline trains a pilot, he or she is expected to fly that airplane under any conditions. You guys have double standards over there for your pft pilots??

 

[Long Time Gone]

I got this form the other forum but it is interesting.

The last 3 fatal airline crashes Were Colgan, Comair 5191, and Pinnacle 3701
Colgans Captain = Gulfstream
Comair's Captain = Gulfstream
Both Pinnacle Pilots = Gulfstream


Comments.

I've read through the entire thread up until my post and I have to point out incorrect information.

The Comair CA was not a product of GTA or GIA. He was a product of CAA, now known as DCA. He was in Instructor in Flying Services, which is the Part 61 side. I knew Jeff and just want to defend him despite the accident.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

It was the FO that was GIA on Comair 191.